Bloodloch's government system is unfair and doesn't make sense

Tetchta

Just got out of an admin meeting where it was again re-affirmed that the Dominion gets a guaranteed spot on the Overlord Council, with the world's smallest concessions made to weaken that power.

What do you guys think? Does this seem fair? No other guilds in Bloodloch have this privilege. It's really messed up to me that "lore" is used as a crutch repeatedly because Bloodloch was founded by Abhorash 400ish in game years ago. The modern Dominion isn't an Abhorash-style-vampire, and in a city where Might Makes Right, it's mindboggling to me that guilds that could easily outmatch the Dominion in combat if it came to it has to somehow just be like "oh gee golly we accept that there's an overlord position that can't be budged."

I'm utterly maddened by this being treated like it's solely something that matters through the lens of lore. Game cities are player-run-institutions that have mechanical authority over other players. Lore isn't the only thing that matters.

Am I crazy?

I know I'm salty. I really am. I'm this close to never logging in again over it.

What do you guys think?

Tetchta

Here's a log of what the meeting entailed before I got too angry to stay logged in because I couldn't stay not-angry with people literally mocking me in front of my face and in front of admin while OOC: https://ada-young.com/pastebin/MpeSgdcW

Not edited so if there's weird stuff in there don't blame me.

Tetchta

EDITED BY TETCHTA: Maybe this was too spicy so I'm deleting it, but this entire system is really messed up.

Saidenn

So I will start by saying that it is clear everyone involved in this is really close to the situation and emotions are supercharged, making it more difficult to stay even keeled. With that in mind I will try to be direct but not scathing.

Organizations are player-run and players have input into the org, but ultimately the overall lore of the game is decided my the admin. By your argument, the Templar could one day decide to start eating babies and burning Duamvi at the stake and if the majority of the guild was okay with it the admin should just nod and allow it. The point @Iosyne was trying to make before you logged out was that the issue of a Dominion OL was nearly split, suggesting a change was necessary but in a compromising way. Neither side would get 100% of what they wanted and in reading it honestly felt you were wanted a major change that a majority of votes did not even support. @Iosyne was trying to offer a middle ground.

In the end, the entire meeting felt hostile on all sides. And that saddens me as a player. Again, I understand that everyone involved in Bloodloch is charged. It has been a very harrowing time. But between the language, the demands, the defensive postures... I am not convinced a single person came to that meeting looking to work together, or if they did, they did so begrudgingly while not ready to admit that they may be in the wrong. Or at least that they could have approached the situations better. It should be a wake up call to the players when the Admin decide to have an OOC sit down to talk, regardless of context. But instead it seemed like some were inconvenienced, some were hoping to use it as a session to spill every grievance, and others were hoping that their heard voice would mean that they would get their way. 

So to answer your questions. Not crazy, but I don't think you gave @Iosyne a proper chance. I saw people jabbing at each other. Barbs were being thrown from nearly everyone to everyone. The hostility was real all around. 

And thst truly saddens me. 

Tetchta

Saidenn said:

Organizations are player-run and players have input into the org, but ultimately the overall lore of the game is decided my the admin. By your argument, the Templar could one day decide to start eating babies and burning Duamvi at the stake and if the majority of the guild was okay with it the admin should just nod and allow it. The point @Iosyne was trying to make before you logged out was that the issue of a Dominion OL was nearly split, suggesting a change was necessary but in a compromising way.

I dont' think that's a comparable argument at all, honestly. I don't think I claimed that all lore should be disregarded--but a position like an Overlord seat being mechanically sealed by the game is, frankly, the opposite of Roleplay. The Carnifex could dust every vampire in the Dominion over and over and over and over again, but that seat would still be there, in spite of there being a mighty guild being just as deserving of something like that. This also goes counter to the general ethos of Bloodloch.

Also, I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that I went into that meeting really stoked to have an opportunity to talk some of this over, and to have Rhyot start condescending to me because I was trying to make an argument was, yeah, way too much for me. I wasn't angry until I was treated like my opinions didn't matter RIGHT in front of an ADMIN while we're OOC and are supposed to be on our best behavior.

We're talking about systems, here, not, flavor text or mechanics. Would it be bananas for the Templar to start eating babies and sacrificing Duamvi? Sure! That's also an incredibly easy thing to course correct and it involves literally not emoting eating babies.

Systems, mechanics, that are tied to RP aren't completely devoid of lore and RP, but they have to be treated on a different level than, like, flavor text, some NPC fairie dust, and emotes done by individual players. We're talking about systems that control how people play, and I'm not sold on the argument of "Because a lot of people want an unfair system that benefits them, we gotta keep that system."

EDIT: I will agree, however, that I didn't give @Iosyne a fair shake, and that is likely because I was erroneously under the presumption that I should be arguing with Iosyne, but I'm pretty sure this is something mandated from above by @Tiur. So, yeah, I'm sorry for being brusque toward Iosyne if I was at all, but I stand by everything that I said.

Borminchia

Saidenn said:

By your argument, the Templar could one day decide to start eating babies and burning Duamvi at the stake and if the majority of the guild was okay with it the admin should just nod and allow it.

I actually think this is reversed. I would argue that the Templar are running around eating babies and burning Duamvi at the stake, and the admin are just saying 'guess that's just the holy and righteous thing to do now'.

Vampires used to be this big, bad, scary thing in Aetolia, with blood hunts and actual "we're gonna getcha" rp. But they aren't anymore, and most people probably wouldn't RP vampires being any more scary than any other threat in Aet. I doubt most Eno/Duiran people would RP being afraid of your average vampire, since vampires have just faded into the background of the game.

It's not really the fault of vampires/Dominion either, since the fight isn't evil people/vampires/undead vs forestals/religious zealots, it's just "shadow" vs "spirit".

But for whatever reason, Bloodloch is being forced to pretend the vampires/Dominion are still some big bad evil scary thing, when it's quite clear that the Carnifex do that RP waaaaaaaaaaaay better. It doesn't make any sense for the "city of strength" to pretend vampires/Dominion are somehow especially strong, while the rest of the world doesn't RP that way (and it objectively isn't true, frankly).

There's a lot more I could say and a ton of holes that can be poked into the logic of some of what was said in that log, but I have spent far too much time screaming into the Aetolian void to keep doing it over and over. So I guess I'll just make this point real quick:

The decisions made by the pools today, and the IC interactions being created today, are what create the lore and identity of the game and its organizations tomorrow. Pretending that lore has anything to do with the decisions you make is just a cop out. It's a story. You can do whatever you want with it.

I mean, there is a world out there where Templar are eating demon babies and whoops the Duamvi were Severn's artiface all along, time to burn 'em at the stake!

Anyway, can you guys just delete the post I made to Bloodloch yesterday? I only made it because I got a little RP boost from Ivoln and thought maybe I'd dip my toe and put my thoughts on the matters out there, but since that option for RP is effectively getting turned off on an OOC level I'd rather just pretend it didn't happen and go back to being a non-rp-com. Thanks.

Tetchta

Borminchia said:

Vampires used to be this big, bad, scary thing in Aetolia, with blood hunts and actual "we're gonna getcha" rp. But they aren't anymore, and most people probably wouldn't RP vampires being any more scary than any other threat in Aet. I doubt most Eno/Duiran people would RP being afraid of your average vampire, since vampires have just faded into the background of the game.

It's not really the fault of vampires/Dominion either, since the fight isn't evil people/vampires/undead vs forestals/religious zealots, it's just "shadow" vs "spirit".

But for whatever reason, Bloodloch is being forced to pretend the vampires/Dominion are still some big bad evil scary thing, when it's quite clear that the Carnifex do that RP waaaaaaaaaaaay better. It doesn't make any sense for the "city of strength" to pretend vampires/Dominion are somehow especially strong, while the rest of the world doesn't RP that way (and it objectively isn't true, frankly).

See, I really started this whole thing out optimistically, thinking we could roleplay new directions here, but it really feels like we're being railroaded because of decades-old Lore that is no longer relevant, and is not looking to be relevant any time soon (Iosyne even admits that the "Abhorash Vampire is gone").

Things are bubbling over because the current system doesn't reflect the actual dynamics of the city. Like. Are the Carnifex supposed to just mass-PK all Dominion guildmembers into oblivion until it becomes clear that the power dynamic has shifted?

All I see from my character's perspective is a corrupt system being upheld by ???? for ???? and it needs to be undermined. But in the spirit of "That would actually be miserable for everybody playing the game" I've been trying to, like, not be that kind of jerk about it.

Iesid

Duiran gets on just fine with an extended version of this system. Be thankful you don't depend on your other guilds to produce viable Overlords as well. The outcome is never pretty; during my entire tenure as CL, I felt like I only ever had one other Speaker to lean on reliably. I don't know if it is any different at this point for my successor.

Tetchta

Duiran's system seems a lot more fair to me. 🤷‍♂️

Sibatti

I wasn't going to bring up the Speaker system but since @Iesid popped it I'll chime in.

The Speaker system isn't terrible but it isn't great either, and right now there is a weird imbalance in the guild populations that have it so one guild (the Sentaari) are struggling to find two people to occupy its major leadership spots (GM and Speaker). Right now, Ander is holding both of them so yeah..

Borminchia

I think I made this point somewhere but I'm not 100% sure on how true it is so tell me if I'm wrong:

Wasn't the speaker system put into place because there was a ton of metagaming? Like, wasn't it effectively some sort of punishment because the active leadership was doing some naughty/unethical things?

Because if so, then I'm not really sure why Bloodloch has to endure the same mechanic. Are we being punished for something I'm unaware of?

Iesid

Borminchia said:

I think I made this point somewhere but I'm not 100% sure on how true it is so tell me if I'm wrong:

Wasn't the speaker system put into place because there was a ton of metagaming? Like, wasn't it effectively some sort of punishment because the active leadership was doing some naughty/unethical things?

Because if so, then I'm not really sure why Bloodloch has to endure the same mechanic. Are we being punished for something I'm unaware of?

It was to quell drama, yes. I don't really think one organization should be a celani's Political Science project, but I also don't mind it so long as it accounts for the fact that our population has shifted a little. Having to send one representative from each guild is difficult when one or two guilds are dead at a time or nobody can muster the desire to run for the seat in an active org.

I actually thought Duiran would have already graduated from the 'punishment', but my understanding is that the admin like how it has settled and that indicates to me that they might recycle it in other orgs. You have to admit that a 56-53? referendum in a narrow margin of victory for retaining it indicates that your city's population is heavily divided. Your organization is not exactly spotless in terms of environment.

Tetchta

I'd honestly rather have a full speaker system than this piecemeal system that keeps getting loosely justified by Bloodlochian power dynamics that are no longer relevant.

Iesid

Tetchta said:

I'd honestly rather have a full speaker system than this piecemeal system that keeps getting loosely justified by Bloodlochian power dynamics that are no longer relevant.

Even though that means that, at any time, any of your seats could be dead in the water if the guild's health flags?

Sibatti

That is correct. There were Some People who were trading leadership positions to get honours lines, and generally being the source of a ton of bad vibes. This happened in... 2016ish? Or so?

Tetchta

Iesid said:

Even though that means that, at any time, any of your seats could be dead in the water if the guild's health flags?

The teradrim is not super active and we have an Overlord seat with a Teradrim on it. I mean the same thing could be said of the piecemeal system, anyway. The entire Dominion could check out (not likely, but still technically possible), and we'd just have another dead seat.

Ideally, I'd have a system that's equiatable to the whole city's playerbase, but I've already been told in no uncertain terms that fairness is not a priority, so if it's going to be "guild get's guaranteed spot," I'd rather have it be every guild, yeah.

Borminchia

Iesid said:

You have to admit that a 56-53? referendum in a narrow margin of victory for retaining it indicates that your city's population is heavily divided. Your organization is not exactly spotless in terms of environment.

I won't spread conspiracy theories as to why I personally think the referendum is flawed, but I will say something here that I ended up leaving out in the BL post that I actually sincerely want deleted btw:

The Dominion aren't a dead guild. They effectively rival the numbers the Carnifex have (or at least can include enough Dominion sympathizers/anti-Carnifex types in the city on "their" side). The referendum proves that they actually -do- have enough political might in the city to just... vote their own Overlord in. The mechanic literally doesn't have to exist for Callidora/any Dom members to be OL. The main difference is they might have to do a tiny bit more politicking work than they have to now (mostly because it's literally 0 now).

Honestly, the mechanic works backwards. It devalues the RP of the city of strength. It guarantees an OL spot, even if the "strength" to back up that guarantee isn't there. The same argument being used for the removal of slaves can easily be used to remove the guaranteed OL spot: Having it guaranteed makes the Dom/BL weak and complacent. Having to actually fight for the OL spot and show their might is what makes them strong.

With all that being said, the -main- thing, which I guess is being addressed in the solution technically, is that Spirean Dom members can vote for Primus. That means Spireans can vote for a BL Overlord spot, while actual BL citizens can't. That alone should have proved why the mechanic is bad and backwards, but instead of just saying 'yeah this is dumb' and letting us have the same set up the Enorian and Spinesreach have (and that BL USED to have..), they're putting some awkward band-aid on it.

There's really no logic here to keep this system. Like I've already mentioned, the lore/identity argument falls flat and is essentially contradictory.

Edit: Gonna keep more personal thoughts out.

Tetchta

Iesid said:

You have to admit that a 56-53? referendum in a narrow margin of victory for retaining it indicates that your city's population is heavily divided. Your organization is not exactly spotless in terms of environment.

That's what I keep trying to point out, man, but I'm looked at like I'm a crazy person. "If an Overlord won by that margin they'd still be overlord" but just...LOOK at the numbers, man, LOOK! It's literally 51% to 49%. If you look at this as a litmus test for how the city as a whole is feeling, it is NOT a landslide of approval here.

If it'd been 60-40 I'd be grumpy about it, but I'd probably shut up, but this being treated like it's hugely decisive is just wrong. And I guess I should reiterate: just because a slim majority of people are in favor of keeping an unfair system that benefits them IC and OOC doesn't actually mean that this is a system we should be keeping for the people playing the game. This is a system for managing people, and these people have mechanical power over others. It's bonkers that that is being treated like a wingnut argument to me.

Borminchia

There has also been waaaaaaaaaaay more activity in BL. The last few weeks has been more active than the entire rest of the year.

This likely brought in some old players, alts, and new players that we probably wouldn't have had voting on the referendum if it were held in September.

Edit: Also gonna toss in that it might not be clear to people if referendums are IC or OOC (pretty sure they're technically IC anyway), and that there could be players who dislike the way it works (or are ambivalent) but voted for it because their characters would have.

Iazamat

I'm unblocking the forums long enough to chime in here: the OL spot is horseshit. It's been horseshit, it will remain horseshit. Start listening to your players and actually address the problem instead of trying to force something for the sake of lore that's only even recently come about (27 IC years, almost 5 RL years). There are better solutions to keep vampires relevant, if that's something Bloodloch truly needs (hint: it's not, they're a guild and a class like everyone else, let them stand on their own two legs or fall like every other goddamn org in the game).


You have a perfectly good Speaker system if that's the direction you want to force on us. Adapt it to BL as a Warlord system and make each guild relevant in a way similar to Duiran and yet uniquely different. You can do it, I have faith, even if I shouldn't. Pull your head out of your ass, @Tiur, stop sticking to lore that is clearly disliked by sizeable chunk of the game's players, and get your fucking house in order.

Tiur

Iazamat said:

Pull your head out of your unicorns, @Tiur, stop sticking to lore that is clearly disliked by sizeable chunk of the game's players, and get your unicorns house in order.

Title: (Closed) Dominion Overlord. Description: should the Dominion be guaranteed an Overlord on the Bloodloch Council while other organizations are not? Choices: 1. Yes (56) 2. No (53)

A compromise certainly seems the correct option here. I will say the referendum is not phrased fairly and likely created some defensive and adversarial opinions, so it's difficult to extract good information from it. A majority might prefer outright removal over a compromise, for instance, but regardless.

@Iazamat your inability to hold a civil conversation, adversarial tone, and general inability to add to the conversation without attempting to make it worse.. I'm just banning you from the forums.

Tetchta

Tiur said:

A compromise certainly seems the correct option here. I will say the referendum is not phrased fairly and likely created some defensive and adversarial opinions, so it's difficult to extract good information from it. A majority might prefer outright removal over a compromise, for instance, but regardless.

Can you defend an unfair system, please? Why do we need one? Every other city in the game has a system built to make the cities, both in the metagame and IC, as equitable as possible. Why is bloodloch and vampires the one exception to this?

And, frankly, that referendum is...phrased exactly fairly. That's literally the system. That is a description, to a T, of what Bloodloch's current political system is.

Borminchia

Argument: 2+2=4
Counterargument: 2+2=5
Tiur: 2+2=4.5

Tetchta

Borminchia said:

Argument: 2+2=4
Counterargument: 2+2=5
Tiur: 2+2=4.5

Man I know this comes across as reductive but this also seems like the only answer we get. I want someone to explain to me like I'm five why we should be the only city with a political system that's not only unfair IC, but unfair in the metagame as well. If we're going to have random nepotism/despotism, I'd rather just have a Celani rule the city as a king and have it be that.

Borminchia

Virgin Bloodloch:

20.5.1 Bloodloch, the Sanguine Fist
[CITY LEADERS]
Leader Keeper . . . . . . . . . . . . Rhyot
Patron Divine Patron . . . . . . . . . Iosyne, the Malevolent
Advisory Divine Advisory . . . . . . . . Iosyne, Chakrasul, and Ivoln
Council Overlords . . . . . . . . . . . Callidora, Rhyot, Elene, Mjoll,
and Zenobia

Chad Bloodloch:

20.5.1 Bloodloch, the Abhorash Fisting
[CITY LEADERS]
Leader Keeper . . . . . . . . . . . . Abhorash
Patron Divine Patron . . . . . . . . . Abhorash , the Abhorash
Advisory Divine Advisory . . . . . . . . Abhorash , Abhorash , and Abhorash
Council Overlords . . . . . . . . . . . Abhorash , Abhorash , Abhorash , Abhorash ,
and Abhorash

Rhyot

Tetchta said:

Also, I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that I went into that meeting really stoked to have an opportunity to talk some of this over, and to have Rhyot start condescending to me because I was trying to make an argument was, yeah, way too much for me. I wasn't angry until I was treated like my opinions didn't matter RIGHT in front of an ADMIN while we're OOC and are supposed to be on our best behavior.

So being as you are bringing me into this, I want to state that I also came into the meeting to be able to hash some things out, resolve things and move forward. I wasn't being condescending (or at least wasn't trying to be) when I said that even if a good point was raised, it would be argued. The admins are using both sides of the same argument (for and against the Dominion OL) to find some sort of middle ground, while also maintaining some semblance of lore, history and identity. While I understand and acknowledge that it doesn't exactly scream fair, there's not really much we can do at this point either.

In no way or manner was I trying to make you feel as if your opinion was being dismissed or didn't matter and I apologize for making you feel that way. I have always done my best to make sure everyone can have their opinion be heard and I don't have any real issue with you on an OOC level.

BL had lost it's identity over the years and it's been great to hear that we're getting events to help us work together and get some identity back. What's not so great is losing players in the process because neither side can agree on something and it has to be this 'My way or the highway' concept. No matter how it boils down, nobody wins.

If you ever want to talk to me, I will always welcome you reaching out to me.

Borminchia

Rhyot said:

Tetchta said:

Also, I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that I went into that meeting really stoked to have an opportunity to talk some of this over, and to have Rhyot start condescending to me because I was trying to make an argument was, yeah, way too much for me. I wasn't angry until I was treated like my opinions didn't matter RIGHT in front of an ADMIN while we're OOC and are supposed to be on our best behavior.

So being as you are bringing me into this, I want to state that I also came into the meeting to be able to hash some things out, resolve things and move forward. I wasn't being condescending (or at least wasn't trying to be) when I said that even if a good point was raised, it would be argued. The admins are using both sides of the same argument (for and against the Dominion OL) to find some sort of middle ground, while also maintaining some semblance of lore, history and identity. While I understand and acknowledge that it doesn't exactly scream fair, there's not really much we can do at this point either.

What's not so great is losing players in the process because neither side can agree on something and it has to be this 'My way or the highway' concept.

K let's just get something straight. The "middle ground" is what Enorian and Spinesreach have. The default, out of the box city systems. You vote for Council, Council pick Leader.

Any deviation, therefore, is not the middle ground. Moving from one deviation to another deviation is not the middle ground. Giving Bloodloch the default political system, that THEY USED TO HAVE BEFORE IT WAS CHANGED, is the middle ground. The middle ground is explicitly being asked for, and we are being told no.

Edit: This may have came off meaner than I meant. I'm not mad at Rhyot for phrasing things as he did, just putting things into a more appropriate perspective.

Tetchta

Rhyot said:

In no way or manner was I trying to make you feel as if your opinion was being dismissed or didn't matter and I apologize for making you feel that way. I have always done my best to make sure everyone can have their opinion be heard and I don't have any real issue with you on an OOC level.

Ngl didn't expect you to say anything like that and I really appreciate it. It really did make me angry. I don't argue just to be obstinate, I will just argue when I think I'm right and there's a perspective not heard yet, and that comment felt very careless and hurtful when I was trying really hard to be civil and there in good faith.

Part of me regrets walking out of that meeting but having seen the logs of what I missed I'm not sure it would've been in my best interest to stay.

Everything else I think you're wrong about and middle ground here is just going to mean this issue keeps causing problems. But at this point I'm waiting for Tiur to explain this system to me.

Tetchta

Hate to double post but just realized that the Envoy system more or less means that guilds as a whole are stuck with this system, and you have to either quit guilds or be cityless (RIP my Arties that use ylem reserves) to avoid this system if there's no Envoy Slots. So "just move to Spinesreach" isn't even a real solution.

Savas

I think BL's political system could be better.

I don't like the idea of leadership seats that are more or less uncontestable in Aetolia.

I don't really know Calli very well but I think about what my case would be like, personally, if the Syssin had an uncontestable seat in Spinesreach. I wouldn't have to care much about the opinions of anyone outside my guild anymore. As long as I stayed in favor amongst a subsection of the city who belong to the guild, I'd basically have free reign. I'm not saying I /would/ be an ass, just that I could be. In fact, even if there's no real foul play, I think others would grow to resent me and my position simply for the fact that it's unfair and those possibilities exist.

I might be being cynical, but generally speaking, I believe that's how you start dividing an org and end up in situations like this.

Gavramel

1. I thought this whole thing was you guys playing up the curse event. (With the whole enemy/unenemy from BL being like a Benny Hill chase scene).
2. IC, my character is always going to vote with the Dominion - it's the one tiny bit of a character trait I bother to use with him. IRL, I don't care of the overlord position is tied to the Dominion or not. I consider referendums in game to be IC and others may be in the same position so that might be something to follow up on.
3. Stuff being GM and overlord at the same time - too much work (personal opinion, of course).