Bloodloch's government system is unfair and doesn't make sense

13

Comments

  • BorminchiaBorminchia Member Posts: 57 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2020
    Rhyot said:


    failed state nonsense

    Please, do not bring real world politics into this. People are already overly attached to Aetolia.
    Rhyot said:


    There has become this culture of people demanding change because they don't agree with a decision/ruling made and while protesting is a good, verifiable way of laying down the foundation and walking the path to get something changed, it's also bred an environment of negative reinforcement behavior as well. By negative reinforcement behavior, I mean rewarding those with the outcome that they wish to see which further makes them believe that if they do it again on something else, they'll get what they want on topic #2+.

    Some might call it a..... SLIPPERY SLOPE?
    Rhyot said:


    This very same behavior is similar to giving a child candy to be quiet when they won't stop crying, but now the child knows they'll get candy when they persistently cry, but then when you deny the candy then they cry even more. It becomes problematic in and of itself, along with a feedback loop of behavior that is undesirable.

    Like Saidenn earlier (and later), you've got this backwards. The candy was already given to the Dominion. The candy is the special treatment the Dominion get by having a mechanically constrained OL spot that no other organization in BL gets. This is the actual candy you are trying to reference, being given to the Dominion a few years ago. And now that the argument that them being given this special treatment is bad and not good, you are telling us we are asking for special treatment?

    But thanks for comparing us all to children though I know when I get candy I definitely cry and scream until I get more because that is definitely how I function as a grown up human being.
    Rhyot said:


    Iosyne and Tiur made a decision that was a compromise in (ultimately) two parts: lore/history and the outcome of the democratic referendum.

    You said you've read this entire thread, but you're still using the lore/history argument (it'd be nice if someone would explain why all the points made against this argument are wrong btw), and you're still referencing the referendum when Gavramel/Vharen both said their vote was IC and on a player level they are against it/don't care? And even Tiur has said the referendum isn't useful to get information out of?

    Are you sure you've read the whole thread? Are you sure bro? Are you sure you didn't just make a bunch of points regardless of what was said in the thread? Idk mad sus.
    Rhyot said:


    While the Speaker system is viewed as "fair" to one side, it is adversely viewed as "unfair" by the other.

    First, there are usually more than two sides to an argument. Second, there is usually more than just "fair" or "unfair" viewpoints. In fact, what I've gotten out of this thread is not your statement, but that those in Duiran can see the pros and cons of their system. Like someone literally posted a pros and cons list. They like some aspects and dislike others. Some may feel what they like outweighs what they dislike. Some may like more aspects of the system than dislike, but the one aspect they dislike outweighs everything they like. Things are much more complicated than your statement.
    Rhyot said:


    If BL did get the same outcome in the Speaker system, you're now sitting at 50% of the cities having this new electoral system. So in order to squash any further problems such as this arising ever again, they'd start having the discussions to turn both Enorian and Spinesreach to have the Speaker system as well. This is both fair and unfair, because Enorian and Spinesreach haven't done anything wrong to warrant such a political shift in nature (unfair), but then they'd be in line with the other two cities (fair).

    Tbh this is kind of where your whole post falls apart (and also another SS but I'll engage anyway). I do not want the speaker system. I want BL to have the system Spinesreach and Enorian have, the default system that every city had, the system BL USED to have before it was changed. If you had actually read what I wrote, you would know that. Some people are ok with the Speaker system for BL. Some want the Dominion to get special treatment. Some want Bloodloch to have the same system it has always had, the same as Enorian and Spinesreach.

    You also ask why Enorian or Spinesreach should have their political system changed if they have done nothing wrong. I will quote my earlier post that you said you read that maybe you can answer:

    I think I made this point somewhere but I'm not 100% sure on how true it is so tell me if I'm wrong:

    Wasn't the speaker system put into place because there was a ton of metagaming? Like, wasn't it effectively some sort of punishment because the active leadership was doing some naughty/unethical things?

    Because if so, then I'm not really sure why Bloodloch has to endure the same mechanic. Are we being punished for something I'm unaware of?

    You ask, hypothetically, why Spinesreach and Enorian would have their system changed despite doing nothing wrong. Why are you not asking why Bloodloch had their system changed despite doing nothing wrong? Why do you ask this question in an hypothetical for cities you are not a part of, but you do not ask the question for when the change has actually occurred for the city you are the leader of?
    Rhyot said:


    If BL stayed with the system of making Primus an uncontestable OL, you'd still run into the problems of comments being made about fair/unfair. Half the playerbase would want it changed, but the other half would prefer it stay. This leads to the same outcry we are seeing right now.

    If BL moved to the "All OL seats are contestable", you'd still run into the problems of comments being made about fair/unfair. Half the playerbase would want it changed, but the other half would prefer it stay. This leads to the same outcry we are seeing right now.

    First, you seem to have heavily fixated on the comments and outcries of fair and unfair. I do not give a unicorns about that. I want to talk about the actual structure of city leadership. Don't distract.

    The first system you have described is objectively unfair. It is lopsided. One group is getting special treatment, at the cost of the others in the city. I don't even need to make real world analogies to point out why one group getting special treatment over others is bad. It just is.

    The second system you describe is as fair as you can make it. Mostly because it is as basic as you can make it. Anyone can contest, with a small gold fund. I am honestly not even sure what people can say is unfair about this system.

    Yes, different groups or individuals can have different influence within this system. They can game the system. They can do things bad enough to be punished and have the system changed. But the actual governmental form of 'everyone can contest with 10k gold' is not unfair. It just objectively isn't. People might do shitty things to manipulate it, but the system itself is not unfair. There is no special treatment being given to any group (except people who have 10k+ gold I guess, but let's not get into class politics).

    I have no idea why you are trying to defend a system that is objectively unfair, where one group gets special treatment, while somehow trying to paint an objectively fair system, everyone can contest with no special treatment, as somehow 'also just as unfair'.
    Rhyot said:


    Ultimately no one is happy, no one wins, and the admins have to stand by the decision that was made until such a time that it proves to not be working anymore.

    It's... it's literally not working. Right now. Like, that's what this entire thread is about. You literally posted in a thread about how this system isn't working and wrote 'i guess when it stops working maybe then something can be done' like bro what

    Rhyot has used the words fair/unfair so much in his post that it has basically lost meaning. I am going to put things back into perspective.

    The Dominion getting special treatment and having a guaranteed OL position is unfair. Full stop. Period. This isn't being argued. Iosyne literally said in the meeting 'It is not meant to be fair'. How fair or unfair the system is is not being argued. It is unfair. Iosyne and Tiur have said it is unfair. We have said it is unfair. It is unfair.

    The fact that it is unfair is making the game bad. That is the argument for changing the system. Not whether or not it is unfair, but that because it is unfair it is making things bad. Tiur and Iosyne are deciding they would rather uphold an unfair system and give special treatment to people in the Dominion (or with the upcoming change, people with vampire class) then to... not give people special treatment.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.


    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.



    Post edited by Borminchia on
    TetchtaLinXarianValorie
  • BorminchiaBorminchia Member Posts: 57 ✭✭✭
    Saidenn said:

    And the other half of the city, more than half per the democratic referendum, does not loathe.

    Again, the referendum has already been stated as not being a great place to get information from. By Tiur. Let's stop referencing it as something that means.. anything.
    Saidenn said:


    It literally is a demonstration of meeting halfway, meeting in the middle, attempting a compromise. Both sides get some but not all of what they want.

    I understand those in this thread feel they are getting none of what they want, but it seems the only thing wanted equals nothing approaching a compromise. And tell me, how is that fair?

    Here we see 'both sides' again. There are -at least- three sides.

    1) Making BL the same as Enorian/Spinesreach, the original, default city system all cities used to have.

    2) Giving BL the punishment Duiran got and creating a Speaker system.

    3) Leaving things as are: Dominion with special treatment and a guaranteed OL spot.

    If you want to have a 'both sides' argument, this is it:

    I do not want any organization to have special treatment and getting an OL spot under special restrictions.

    Others are fine with the Dominion getting special treatment and a guaranteed OL spot under special restrictions.

    How does the compromise of keeping the special treatment for the Dominion, but slightly changing how that special treatment works, appease my side at all? It is not a compromise for me. It does nothing for 'my side'.
    Tetchta
  • RijettaRijetta Nowhere ImportantMember Posts: 240 ✭✭✭✭
    Being forced to "compromise" with the side that has an advantage, wants to keep it, and barely has to compromise is extreme levels of governmental oppression. If this is working as intended, anyone not in the Dominion should leave Bloodloch immediately. You are being screwed, fiercely.
    A low, sultry voice resounds within the depths of your mind, "I look forward to seeing your descent."
    TetchtaBorminchia
  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 566 ✭✭✭✭


    How does the compromise of keeping the special treatment for the Dominion, but slightly changing how that special treatment works, appease my side at all? It is not a compromise for me. It does nothing for 'my side'.

    I told myself I was done responding in this thread, but I REALLY gotta step in and give a big fat "agree" here, because this is 100% true. All this current "compromise" solution does is kinda piss off the Dominion a bit (which I'd like to think none of us actually want). It offers practically nothing to address the core problems with this system. It is not a compromise, it's a bit of a color change to the system we currently have.
    "We're taught Lord Acton's axiom: all power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I believed that when I started these books, but I don't believe it's always true any more. Power doesn't always corrupt. What I believe is always true about power is that power always reveals. When you have enough power to do what you always wanted to do, then you see what the guy always wanted to do."
    -Robert Caro
  • BorminchiaBorminchia Member Posts: 57 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2020
    Saidenn said:

    Changing things in radical, sweeping things when half of a population advocate for it can be equally seen as bad! You are justifying changing the entire process in which Bloodloch operates as a government because people hate something that benefits the other half. But those radical and sweeping changes would be okay because now it benefits the people who hate the system that they have now.

    There is a reason radical and sweeping changes tend to require a 2/3 majority to institute to ensure some sense of acceptance lest you run into what @Rhyot pointed out, that the silent portion now finds their voice when what -they- wanted is changed, ignored, or otherwise taken off the table.

    Doing nothing is wrong, I agree. Is the change 100% fair? No, but given that the referendum was, as you stated, a 50/50 split, it can be easy to see why a radical and sweeping change that impacts the entire Bloodloch Council rather than just one seat may not be seen as a favorable motion.

    If closer to 2/3 voted in favor of changing how the seat was filled, I think we would have seen a more radical shift, but we didn't. We saw a split down the middle.

    I don't think we need to look too far to players' reactions when radical and sweeping changes are made to systems in Aetolia without overwhelming player support to understand why ANYONE may be reluctant to institute such a change.

    If the argument in return is that adopting a system like the Speaker system from Duiran into Bloodloch is not a sudden and radical change, well, then we've identified another talking point. But I'll leave that to others to debate.

    This... this isn't radical sweeping change. What? We are asking to have what Enorian and Spinesreach have. The Duiran thing is just another option. How is that radical sweeping change? Why is this getting painted as some massive upending cataclysmic event? Whose world is crashing down on them for.... having the same political system that Enorian and Spinesreach have? What? Stop sensationalizing this. An organization is getting special treatment, other players don't like that and want it to stop, and the solution to stopping it is giving BL the default political system (or Duirans if an alternative is preferred) which they used to have anyway.

    By the way, the real radical and sweeping change was giving Dominion this OL spot years ago. So hey, maybe you're right, maybe radical sweeping change is bad and the repercussions can be felt years later, even. So good job I guess? Maybe that original change should have been done with a 2/3 vote, right?
    Tetchta
  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 566 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2020
    I know it's the holidays and we're all gonna have to reign in our expectations about turnarounds, but can we get a confirmation that this is being discussed, @Tiur, and that at some point we're going to get answers? (And if a guy can be hopeful, a rough window of when to expect those answers?)
    "We're taught Lord Acton's axiom: all power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I believed that when I started these books, but I don't believe it's always true any more. Power doesn't always corrupt. What I believe is always true about power is that power always reveals. When you have enough power to do what you always wanted to do, then you see what the guy always wanted to do."
    -Robert Caro
  • TsarraTsarra Member Posts: 8
    Everyone keeps saying it’s Bloodloch’s current system, Spinesreach/Enorian’s system, or Duiran’s system. I swear admin (maybe Tiur?) once said they’d like each city to eventually have its own unique system of government. So why don’t we come up with a completely novel suggestion that more than 51% can agree on and push for that? I’m not much of a polisci major, but I’m sure there are people here that know about other kinds of governments, maybe something that would fit Bloodloch thematically even better. Mm?
    GavramelSibatti
  • GavramelGavramel Member Posts: 35
    Hmm, flavour text.

    ELECTION 999 VOTE 1
     You dip a carrion beetle into a jar of coloured dye to signify your vote for Pendragon and hurl it into an enormous election cauldron. A satisfying 'clink' reaches your ear as the beetle's carapace bounces of the inside wall of the vessel.

    On another note, I'd be happy to drop the default Dominion seat but in turn have the overlord capped to a max of two characters from the same guild.
  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 566 ✭✭✭✭
    Tsarra said:

    Everyone keeps saying it’s Bloodloch’s current system, Spinesreach/Enorian’s system, or Duiran’s system. I swear admin (maybe Tiur?) once said they’d like each city to eventually have its own unique system of government. So why don’t we come up with a completely novel suggestion that more than 51% can agree on and push for that? I’m not much of a polisci major, but I’m sure there are people here that know about other kinds of governments, maybe something that would fit Bloodloch thematically even better. Mm?

    Given the amount of heel-digging we're experiencing even trying to have a discussion with the administration about this (the meeting itself not being a discussion, rather a communication of the plan they chose for us), I don't really have a lot of faith in constructing brand new government systems wholecloth for each city when we already have working systems there.

    What's more, I'm not convinced that the people who voted "yeah, it's fair that the Dominion gets a guaranteed seat" are going to be super ecstatic about any changes that address that issue. But as @Borminchia and @Tiur both said, the referendum is really not a great metric, so we should all probably stop using it in this conversation. I don't have really anything else to add, it'd just be me repeating myself, and Borm, @Naos, @Iazamat, @Savas, @Haven, and to a degree @Lin have done a bang-up job explaining the problems and why they need fixed, so I guess now we just sit, make a cup of tea, and wait for an administration response.

    "We're taught Lord Acton's axiom: all power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I believed that when I started these books, but I don't believe it's always true any more. Power doesn't always corrupt. What I believe is always true about power is that power always reveals. When you have enough power to do what you always wanted to do, then you see what the guy always wanted to do."
    -Robert Caro
  • DrayneDrayne Member Posts: 40
    This isn't a democracy!

    Although since it isn't one, I think that a way to fight over which guild has leadership would be amusing.
  • EvalyneEvalyne A CoffinMember Posts: 142 ✭✭✭
    I have been inactive, only really occasionally logging in to bash or test things on my system to make sure changes in Imperian didn't break Aetolia stuff, so take my opinion for what it is. However, given that stuff like this is exactly why I have been so absent, I thought I might as well chime in to put the cards at least on the table.

    Some salient points in no order other than that I thought of them in:

    1] Bloodloch was never really a democracy in earlier times. Anyone saying otherwise is deluding themselves. In many cases, the Overlord's was the only opinion that mattered, if that. It's mellowed over the years, but the historical revisionism is ... interesting, to say the least. A case study in how we re-invent memory to conform to our current viewpoints, perhaps.

    2] If we are predicating Bloodloch as "the city of strength" then a bunch of people ineffectually complaining across large news paper missives shows this to be a hollow, narcissistic claim, if you were as strong as you say you are, especially as the side that is supposed to be the evil one, you should be demonstrating that strength and *taking* what you want.

    3] A gauranteed position for any guild, creating a situation of "special treatment" for one over the others, only engenders distance between those groups, the haves and have nots. Regardless of lore concerns, this is a recipe for unhappy, griefy players. Indeed the toxic environment it's created is one I choose not to participate in.

    4] This is only tangentially related, but I still stand steadfastly by my opinion that the Dominion was the worst thing that has happened to any IRE game (arguably tying killing the gods in Imperian, which was a similarly bad idea). The crux of much of Aetolia's lore in the consanguine was to some degree retconned and in any case wholly ruined to achieve ... what, exactly? A guild where most of the older members are only there on sufferance, because they were foisted into the position and have no alternative.

    5] A game where the administration do not listen to player feedback is a game that is on borrowed time. I was not present in that meeting, but I will say, the logs I found of it did not paint Aetolia's administration in a good light, to me.
  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 566 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2020
    @Evalyne I don't mean to be dismissive, but you've been gone for a while and don't know the stuff that's been done IC and OOC to address this. IC action at this point as reached a place where players have to essentially grief other people and ruin their playtime if they want to send the IC message. It's a large reason why a big OOC meeting was called by the administration to begin with. Addressing this IC is no longer viable, and is clearly causing more problems than it's solving. So point #2 isn't really contributing much.

    Some of your other points are alright, but I can say with confidence that this problem is beyond the tools available IC, especially since the material reality of the situation is hardcoded into the game. And frankly I've become increasingly disinterested in dealing with this through Roleplay, since the situation itself is a meta system, not one built through Roleplay at all, and probably never has been.
    "We're taught Lord Acton's axiom: all power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I believed that when I started these books, but I don't believe it's always true any more. Power doesn't always corrupt. What I believe is always true about power is that power always reveals. When you have enough power to do what you always wanted to do, then you see what the guy always wanted to do."
    -Robert Caro
  • DrayneDrayne Member Posts: 40
    Another thing I would point out is that, having peeked in on my alt (didn't have enough credits to retire him), I've noticed that Bloodloch seems to have 3x the population of Enorian.

    This is understandable since vampires are pretty much the crux of this game. But it would naturally raise up some issues like this. I have no idea how many vampires and undeads Spinesreach is pulling away but here's my two cents.

    1) A system to fight over leadership would be cool but to a certain degree, with so many players in Bloodloch, this is arguably just a substitute for a war system.
    2) If we had a war system back in, Bloodloch could just try to conquer the world instead, which to me would be way more interesting than endless civil war in one city that has the most players.

    To take a reference from another IRE game, Glomdoring (in Lusternia) basically had the world conquered for several years real time and it didn't really detract from the game.
    Mjoll
  • BorminchiaBorminchia Member Posts: 57 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2020
    Evalyne said:



    1] Bloodloch was never really a democracy in earlier times. Anyone saying otherwise is deluding themselves. In many cases, the Overlord's was the only opinion that mattered, if that. It's mellowed over the years, but the historical revisionism is ... interesting, to say the least. A case study in how we re-invent memory to conform to our current viewpoints, perhaps.

    I'm not really sure if there have been specific claims to BL historically being a democracy in this thread or elsewhere (too lazy to read through it all again), but I think the way the city's political structure is RP'd out and how the actual, coded mechanics of the game work are two different things.

    I played quite a bit when Desian was God-King Desian and RP'd being a dictator, more or less. However, people could still contest and vote, and as far as I remember the structure was the same default structure that every city has, and that Enorian/Spinesreach have now.

    Under Desian's dictatorship, it was technically possible for unhappy citizens to make a concerted effort to vote out 3 of the 5 Overlord's (or less depending on how many were supporting Desian) using the default political system.

    Under our current modified system, only 4 of these 5 Overlords can be voted on by everyone. The system is actually more autocratic now than it was when there was literal dictator RP in the city, despite the rp being much more 'democratic' now than in the past.

    Also, I think if we're going to be making claims of historical revisionism, we should probably come with receipts.
    Evalyne said:


    2] If we are predicating Bloodloch as "the city of strength" then a bunch of people ineffectually complaining across large news paper missives shows this to be a hollow, narcissistic claim, if you were as strong as you say you are, especially as the side that is supposed to be the evil one, you should be demonstrating that strength and *taking* what you want.

    Yeah trust me, if BL could actually RP out being the city of strength, than either me or Mjoll or maybe Mazzion (probably Mjoll) would be Keeper right now. And yes, PK is a valid form of strength even if you want to argue it's griefy or allies in a city wouldn't use that strength on each other.

    This goes back to an earlier post, but leaders of a city (or any IG org) need to take that leadership spot to an OOC level and consider what the players in their org want/need. Even in an org that is supposed to be 'the city of strength', the players in leadership positions probably shouldn't just RP their characters as 'f u i do want i want cuz i stronk'.

    Also I should note that there was actual in game killing and political maneuvering happening before these forum posts went up. They stopped when the meeting happened (a decidedly OOC event) and this thread is the result of the meeting's solution being a non-solution. I'm not sure if 'news paper missives' are referring to IC news posts or these forum posts, but there was a bit more done than what was on BL news. Also to claim putting words to paper is ineffectual is... a little ironic.
    Evalyne said:


    4] This is only tangentially related, but I still stand steadfastly by my opinion that the Dominion was the worst thing that has happened to any IRE game (arguably tying killing the gods in Imperian, which was a similarly bad idea). The crux of much of Aetolia's lore in the consanguine was to some degree retconned and in any case wholly ruined to achieve ... what, exactly? A guild where most of the older members are only there on sufferance, because they were foisted into the position and have no alternative.

    I've really only played Aetolia, and I would say that there have been a -lot- of blunderous decisions made in Aetolia, including some that were as bad or worse than the Dominion becoming a thing (abolish tethers).

    Claiming the Dominion coming into existence as some sort of major tragedy blows it way out of proportion. Admins decided to connect 3 guilds to each city, and it made the most sense for vampires to have a guild vs.. not having a guild.

    Vampire lore has been modified a ton of times, including things like like Imperium not existing, and then existing, and now not existing, or Bloodborn, or how siring works, and so on. Pointing at the creation of the Dominion as the main culprit to all the lore retconning problems seems like some historical revisionisming on your own part, tbh.

    I feel like this take and the whole 'lore/history' argument stem from the idea that vampires are the 'flagship' class of Aetolia. That was probably true when Aetolia first became a thing in the 2000s, when all the vampire fanfic and Twilight-esque fantasy meant 'Achaea but with vampires' was a good business/marketing decision.

    Aetolia is not that anymore. Vampires are no longer the 'main' thing in Aetolia. There has been a -ton- of admin decisions and things created/removed to move further and further away from Achaea. And I think it's easy to see that favoring any specific class/org as a 'flagship' is a bad idea anyway, for any players who want to enjoy the game in a different way (as a Duiran Sentinel, for example) and know they'll receive the same treatment/attention that all other orgs/players will.
    Evalyne said:


    5] A game where the administration do not listen to player feedback is a game that is on borrowed time. I was not present in that meeting, but I will say, the logs I found of it did not paint Aetolia's administration in a good light, to me.

    I agree! As well as with point 3, but that seems rather obvious. It definitely feels a lot more like 'listened to but ignored', which makes it feel just a bit worse. There's a reason my first post has something about 'screaming into the void'. (I get that my feedback isn't the only feedback on this issue, but I agree with the general sentiment here).

    That meeting that was had could have been a way to find a solution, but instead just let people say mean things to each other and then tell a small group of people that some solution was being thrust upon them, that wasn't going to actually solve the problem anyway.

    And while I appreciate you putting down your thoughts, at this point I think enough points have been put down that there's really just one thing to be addressed here:
    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.
    Tetchta
  • BorminchiaBorminchia Member Posts: 57 ✭✭✭
    Drayne said:

    Another thing I would point out is that, having peeked in on my alt (didn't have enough credits to retire him), I've noticed that Bloodloch seems to have 3x the population of Enorian.

    This is understandable since vampires are pretty much the crux of this game. But it would naturally raise up some issues like this. I have no idea how many vampires and undeads Spinesreach is pulling away but here's my two cents.

    1) A system to fight over leadership would be cool but to a certain degree, with so many players in Bloodloch, this is arguably just a substitute for a war system.
    2) If we had a war system back in, Bloodloch could just try to conquer the world instead, which to me would be way more interesting than endless civil war in one city that has the most players.

    To take a reference from another IRE game, Glomdoring (in Lusternia) basically had the world conquered for several years real time and it didn't really detract from the game.

    It's a little difficult to compare numbers between cities, especially right now:

    1) BL is extra active due to the events that have been going on, which has been happening for.. over a month now? Feels like a while. I mentioned this in an earlier post discussing the referendum, but the events have lead to a lot of new characters/old alts/whatever else being in BL right now.

    2) I'm not sure when you play, but being in the EU I can tell you that BL will often get down to 2-4 people online when America goes to sleep (and at least one of those will always be an AFKer). There might be more people in BL in total, but comparing Enorian pop to BL pop is hard, especially since spirit/shadow have pretty different peak times.

    Don't get me wrong, BL historically and probably currently is a very large city, but...

    3) The Carni just about rival the size of the Dom right now (or at least you'd be lead to believe that's true), and you can see some of my past points (including the one above) as to why there really shouldn't be a class/org that is any kind of 'flagship' for the game.

    Also unless Tiur drops some stats on how a decent plurality of new, unique players join the Dom, I really don't think they are the main draw to the game anymore. It'd be nice for Aetolia to finally not be 'achaea but vampires', especially considering classes have been entirely redone purely because they didn't want Achaean skills (muh infernals). Enough things have been done to do away with the vampire flagship concept, especially since it leads to this:

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.
    TetchtaNaos
  • EvalyneEvalyne A CoffinMember Posts: 142 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2020
    Tetchta said:

    @Evalyne I don't mean to be dismissive, but you've been gone for a while and don't know the stuff that's been done IC and OOC to address this. IC action at this point as reached a place where players have to essentially grief other people and ruin their playtime if they want to send the IC message. It's a large reason why a big OOC meeting was called by the administration to begin with. Addressing this IC is no longer viable, and is clearly causing more problems than it's solving. So point #2 isn't really contributing much.

    That is never the only means of affecting change; if you think it is, I doubt you're caring all that hard. There are several object lessons in precisely this cited in the thread.

    I'll be honest, most of the Bloodloch news posts reads like a series of people throwing childish tantrums that they seem to think will result in them getting their way, and then further childish tantrums when it only serves to alienate and marginalize their position further. This is the behaviour of toxic, abusive people, and let me state in no uncertain terms that it is why I choose not to engage with other players on Evalyne anymore.

    [edit:] As an aside false leads "I don't want to do this but" are a pet peeve of mine. If you don't want to do something like that you won't. Spare me the patronization.
    TetchtaRijettaAxiusBorminchiaCallidoraHaven
  • XarianXarian Member Posts: 88 ✭✭✭
    "You all sound like children" "Waaah don't patronize me"

    Huh
    image
    TetchtaEvalyne
  • DrayneDrayne Member Posts: 40
    edited November 2020
    Not sure who that was directed at but I'd like to reiterate. Fighting over political control sounds like a fun idea at first but it would likely result in a bunch of hurt feelings and the usual melodrama that comes with war systems, which are also typically about in-game political control to some degree. This is why a different outlet for such frustrations might be a smart choice, as I personally wouldn't prefer to see Bloodloch be a democracy, sounds kind of lame and cheapens the RP of a vampire dictatorship city.
    TetchtaCallidoraAxius
  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 566 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2020
    Drayne said:

    cheapens the RP of a vampire dictatorship city.

    Bloodloch hasn't been a "vampire dictatorship city" for at least 15 real-world years. That roleplay ship has sailed, sunk to the bottom of the sea, and has now been repurposed as a home for crabs and other weird molluscs.

    As Borm said, this is the issue:

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.
    "We're taught Lord Acton's axiom: all power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I believed that when I started these books, but I don't believe it's always true any more. Power doesn't always corrupt. What I believe is always true about power is that power always reveals. When you have enough power to do what you always wanted to do, then you see what the guy always wanted to do."
    -Robert Caro
    Borminchia
  • BorminchiaBorminchia Member Posts: 57 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2020
    Queso since people are just outright ignoring my posts and basically no one has actually quoted any points or posts I've made and given me an argument against them or even a different way of thinking about them I think I'm just gonna ignore all the new posts people make that don't actually say anything new and that I've already gone over and argued against in my posts.

    So anyway.

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.
    Tetchta
  • DrayneDrayne Member Posts: 40
    edited November 2020
    OK, sorry if I got confused. I guess a guaranteed overlord spot isn't a dictatorship. Why are people mad about 1/5 spots though?
  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 566 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2020
    Drayne said:

    OK, sorry if I got confused. I thought the Dominion was vampires and they defacto lead the city?

    Might be best to avoid these sorts of threads until you're acclimated to the game and have your sea legs back. A lot of things have changed, and this is a really messy topic full of nuance, and really only people who have a solid grasp of the situation and the wider game should be weighing in.

    And since I'm posting again it's another opportunity to say:

    The producer of this game is agreeing to give people that play his game special treatment over other players. That is bad. It is not just Bloodloch players that should be mad about this. Everyone should be mad that any group can be given special treatment to how they can play the game. That is bad and should be changed.

    Edit: what do you disagree with, @Callidora?
    "We're taught Lord Acton's axiom: all power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I believed that when I started these books, but I don't believe it's always true any more. Power doesn't always corrupt. What I believe is always true about power is that power always reveals. When you have enough power to do what you always wanted to do, then you see what the guy always wanted to do."
    -Robert Caro
    BorminchiaCallidoraDrayne
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress SwedenMember Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Drayne
    Yes, the Dominion exists, but it does not seem like it can compare to the vampires of old.

    The vampires of old held a lot of respect, which was felt through RP as well as other mechanical means. Bloodloch used to be their city, a city of Blood, necromancy, unholy rites and all things dark and slightly morbid. It was a perfect place for those who wanted to play out a villain. It gave their counterparts something to fight against, to be righteous about, which in itself created a lot of openings for conflict both on organizational levels and on personal ones. Even as the focus shifted more towards Undeath, the city of Bloodloch still had a decisive theme, still holding the villains, holding to the belief that life was weakness, strength was found in undeath or blood.

    Bit by bit, those small things that made Bloodloch such a fearsome city has been chipped or RP'd away. Gone are the days when the vampires can be said to effectively rule Bloodloch. It has been a long time since vampires were generally seen as fearsome creatures on the global arena. Living were allowed in, which diminished the whole idea of strength in Undeath. So the balance within the city has shifted, which has not been reflected in the mechanics of the game.

    As a tangent, I feel those clearly defined structures that used to exist are missing in the game. Bloodloch, city of Blood and Undeath. Spinesreach, city of Science and Progress. Enorian, city of Light and Righteousness. Duiran, Protectors of the forests and the wildlife. It was easier to find ways to build conflict, ways to take a stand. I miss that.



    CallidoraBorminchia
  • DrayneDrayne Member Posts: 40
    Wow, even living people in Bloodloch? Lame :#

    Even in the latter days when I was playing you had to at least be undead...
    Lin
  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 566 ✭✭✭✭
    Honestly I think BL has a bigger identity problem than the other three cities, but it DOES have a cohesive image of "Might over Everything" that still works really well for new RP and conflicts. That said, while Bloodloch's shifting and possibly uninspired identity is certainly related to this mechanical issue, it's not the topic we should be discussing right now, and would do better in a separate thread.
    "We're taught Lord Acton's axiom: all power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I believed that when I started these books, but I don't believe it's always true any more. Power doesn't always corrupt. What I believe is always true about power is that power always reveals. When you have enough power to do what you always wanted to do, then you see what the guy always wanted to do."
    -Robert Caro
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,409 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The same childish manner you're chastising people for could be argued of the "holier than thou" attitude you seem to be exhibiting @Evalyne. What purpose do these jabs serve to the discussion? How about we not, hmm?

    While the subject matter may be related in nature, there's a distinct difference between posts made in-character where you're expected to be conveying and playing a role and that of an OOC discussion. Let's cut the red tape and stick to the facts and topic at hand.

    I believe @Borminchia described the situation best as an oversight. The unfairness of the current Bloodloch system is undisputable: one group gets a guaranteed mechanical bonus while the rest do not. It does not matter if you feel your side deserves it or not. It does not matter if you believe your side earned it or that it is baked into the lore or not. Unfair is unfair. Plain and simple.

    The question then what is the intent of the system? If the intent is to create this unfair advantage. If the intent is to artificially create a divide amongst Bloodloch's citizenry. If the intent is to foster and maintain a certain type of roleplay where vampires are always "superior" in Bloodloch then it's working. While I wouldn't agree with this game design decision, we'd at least know the system is working as intended and then it would be up to the players to adjust their roleplay accordingly. Some people might be into despotism roleplay but whether the characters realize it themselves, it should be clear to the player what they're signing up for. I would also caution that if the admin are indeed trying to go for this style of game design, they need to adjust how guild-city relations work otherwise a huge swathe of the game is going to hurt again from city adjustment. Something like divorce guilds from cities or change around the clan system a bit to reflect a mobile guild system could work. But honestly, this design sounds like a bigger headache than it's worth unless there's some grand plan I'm not seeing.

    If the system is NOT working as intended then the admin team are obligated to fix it. If the intent of the system is to be fair and give Bloodloch's various groups equal agency/opportunity to rule amongst themselves then the admin team are obligated to change the current system. In either case, the players deserve a clear answer.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    MjollTetchtaBorminchia
  • RijettaRijetta Nowhere ImportantMember Posts: 240 ✭✭✭✭
    Haven makes a great point! If the Carnifex and Teradrim don't like that the Dominion gets special treatment, they have no recourse to undo that special treatment no matter what, and they are 100% stuck in Bloodloch. That's still a pretty sore point for the Carnifex in particular. That sucks!
    A low, sultry voice resounds within the depths of your mind, "I look forward to seeing your descent."
    Tetchta
This discussion has been closed.