Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE

Tza

Calipso said:

Not really sure if this is the thread but:

Im mad that Lusternia has been releasing new fun skillsets and mechanics to their playerbase in almost 10x the speed Aetolia is.
Im mad that they are getting much more focused events and general interactions when it has been ages since Aetolia's last one.

(from now to those witty commentator: No I will not "leave and go play lusternia then". This is in general reference to development)

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I think you should go and play Lusternia to be able to really compare the two games.

Since I have been trying to play Lusternia a bit again lately, it makes me want to assert my head to the table more often than not. What you call "fun new skillsets" I call "totally unviable in 1v1 combat". I say that as a Geomancer, as someone who has gotten such a 'fun new skillset'. Thematically great, but functionwise? Far from it.

There are also a ton of small things that imo make Aetolia just vastly superior. You won't notice them until you suddenly don't have them anymore. For example: A shiny display of the AB list, the LEARNED command (omg I miss that so much), the CONFIG TITLES OFF command, the superior freedom and options when using the EMOTE command in Aetolia - all missing in Lusternia. I'm sure there's more, but these things bug me on a daily basis. I'm not even bothering going into the rng-based combat there.

(Okay, this is probably the wrong thread as this really is a RAVE for the Administration here. So... thank you @admin, because I at least think you are doing it right. )

EDIT: New page fail. Also, quote doesn't work.

Seir

Lusternia is the most imbalanced game in IRE. They still have yet to really put Monks in a good place for years, these new Mage/Druid skillsets are completely unviable and not very fun. I mean, this is a game that thought giving passive amputation (the equiv. of a level 2 break here) was a good idea for Pyromancer's original release and it took 3+ months to fix it. Your class is either absurdedly strong or not able to be used at all. It's a terrible system that they have there. Quality over quantity is how Aet is structured, and I prefer it way more.

Lusternia also has more coder resources than we do and they have mortal coders as well. Aetolia has a pretty firm stance against mortal coders since one bad apple spoiled the bunch. I'd rather Raz and Co. take the time and patience to refine what skillsets we have. Aetolia may not be perfect, but there isn't a game that is and I'd say Aetolia is way closer to a balanced state in combat than Lusternia is. If I had to say there's one game that in IRE is the most balanced, it would likely be Imperian and Lusternia would be -way- behind. Lusternia's power creep is absolutely awful when you compare, say, the newer Illuminati to a Celestine.

Edit: And like Tza, it was the little things that kept me in Aetolia too. Roleplay in Lusternia is largely dead and the game is plagued with metagaming. And while I like Estarra, be grateful that Raz doesn't turn things that the playerbase wants down because it doesn't fit with "THE GRAND VISION".

Moirean

I think part of Lusternia's issue with combat balance is that changes are a constant part of the combat atmosphere. Liaisons (each guildmaster picks one, I'm actually glad Edhain got that changed here) submit a report every month there, and it's far more political and cowboy, to the point where you'll see alliances IG teaming up on report comments (does anyone remember the 50+ comment war on, what was it, something from Glom - sap?) - when I was a liaison there, I had my allies directly pressuring me to make comments supporting their side of the arguments on reports. 

For combat, partisan changes and lots of quick, sudden changes/additions rarely play out well in the long run, however, so you then see lots of back and forth balancing and even MORE changes, which leads to an unstable and frustrating game. Aetolia used to be more kneejerk with changes, and the game's admin has learned from that. The saga of Golgotha is a good example. In this regard, I think a longer cycle for implementation has its benefits - for example, I'd rather wait for a solid rework to Carnifex, versus sitting through a bandaid fix, and then a tweak to that fix and then a balance to the tweak of the fix, etc. That kind of constant churn is tiring on players and makes fighters have to devote time just to keep up with how things work. That treadmill became very tiring in Lusternia.

Now, my comments above are about combat. Regarding events, I've been having a great time, but maybe I still have the new-shiny gaze, or I'm constantly high on sugar, or Carnifex are just lucky with the arc we have now. I think it's hard to make a general statement about stuff like RP and events, since what guild/house/orgs/etc you are involved with will affect that. 

Mechanics-wise, I think the war system being disabled and raiding being made harder (yes, yes, I know neighborhoods are my fault) has created a noticeable gap in the overall conflict landscape. Lessers alone can't generate sweeping conflict, and raiding needs a revamp into something more tangible than essentially just griefing the other city's coffers/fighters who bother to respond. I like the idea of the sect, but I admittedly haven't really done much fighting with it. However, I personally am more driven by organizational goals (which is why I loved war so much, fighting for a big clear cause). 

So, yes, imho, the game could definitely benefit from some sort of large-scale conflict mechanic, but from the posts I've read, that's something the admin are working on. As with combat changes, I think that's something we want them to do right, especially if it's going to be a mechanic that comes with tangible gains/losses - and one worth caring about will have consequences like that. You don't want to implement something like that and then spend a ton of time tweaking it once it's live, forcing players to suffer from imbalances.

I will echo Calipso's thoughts about god interactions, though. Coming back, I was very surprised as it seems the Pool has turned to a much more observational, "let them come to us" attitude. I, personally, enjoyed Gods randomly popping in or getting involved with stuff, but I can absolutely understand why they wouldn't want to wade into situations with potential backlash like that. To balance that out, though, I've seen a lot of mob poss'ing going on, so the admin definitely do seem to care and contribute to player experiences.

Sorry for the ramble. Dissecting corpses takes a while. >_>

Seir

Guildmasters do not pick the envoy in Lusternia. They're picked by the guild patron with ultimate approval from Estarra. There's a blacklist of individuals not allowed to become liaisons because they were either too biased or clashed/disagreed with Estarra (not kidding on that one.) But yeah, Lusternia was stuck in an envoy war for a long, long time where opposing sides just made reports to downgrade one another and buff themselves. It got to the point where you're not allowed to make reports for other classes, not even classes allied to you.

Moirean

Ah, when I played, GMs made the decision and we basically told the patron who to appoint. Nocht just appointed whoever we told him to, at least.

Seir

There are a few cases of when the patron refuses to acknowledge the requests of the guild and it's usually when someone they want is on the blacklist. Other than that, yeah, they'll do that.

Calipso

hmm..didnt know my small rage post could cause such a discussion. This seems interesting . Moment while I catch up

Haven

I don't agree on the interaction assessment exactly. The gods seem pretty random with who they interact with outside of their guild/city/order/admin obligations.

Edit: Which is a good thing.

Mastema

Trying to get people motivated to fight as a group for a cause. -lazy buggers the lot of them-

Calipso

@Seir I agree that Lusternia has had (and still does in some places) insane imbalances in combat and it took 3+ years to finally get Glom Choke to be removed (that's the ability you were talking about @Moirean ^_^). However that wasnt what I was saying exactly. What I always loved about Lusternia was the constant feel of new things and experiences happening. Say what you want about Lusternia's combat system, but they have one of, if not thee, best Quest systems I have ever seen in my Muding experience. Their quests make you feel like you are actually involved in the Game conflict and are actively doing something that will give great results other than just some xp and maybe an honors line.

Lusternia has always been weak in the balance and combat department, this is true, but their events and Lore atmosphere is simply marvelous. The 2 main things that frustrated me about them were the insane imbalances in combat with generally one-sided liaison reports, and the over-complexity that was constantly developed in the mechanics of the game. It got to a point where novices would mostly leave out of frustration of learning too much (I dont blame them).

also @Moirean, concerning a greater conflict system, I agree that things need shaking up in Aetolia. Lessers are nice and all but they are very small skirmishes. We need something that could place alot more drive into the players and their devoted orgs, and hopefully something also developed that would allow non-fighters to also be able to play a part (perhaps quests that supply needed commodities to their cities for war efforts?).

As for interactions, it is tough but possible. I just had one right now (Damn you Maghak you stubborn goat >.<). Mostly what I mean about the God interactions was more of Events really. I would -kill- for more events. Events cause game-wide excitement and action and even some odd alliances. It just seems in Aetolia that we only seem to get events if it is for the unveiling of a new kit or org or area. We can have events for other things too plz .

Valenae

About that not derailing a thread thing... Oh, and I rage at typing Pali commands to stare aimlessly at my computer and wonder why they're not working. Derp. I think I miss my Pali skills

Alastair

@Seir is incredibly right. Imperian is (more) balanced because they don't do what Lust does. They extensively beta test before releasing new content, and the result is instead of something shiny that breaks easily, you get something solid and flexible. Keep your copper and your gold, I prefer steel. The biggest problem there isn't really 1v1 imbalance, though most assuredly it still exists, (try fighting a templar as a summoner :[[[[[ ), it's a massive population disparity, and a lacking focus on balance in group combat.

Teani

@Calipso: Sometimes holding events for the players can be a tedious thing, far as I know. Some events are best kept small, for a specific group, to make it more manageable for the event-holder, and more enjoyable and relevant for the players involved.

However, almost everyone in this game is starved for events, meaning people have a tendency to keep their eyes and ears open and come barging in with irrelevant things just to be part of something/anything/get attention. Suddenly what was meant to be a small event is a huge thing, and through that less manageable.

Yes, it opens up for more conflict with other groups being involved, but sometimes it's nice to be able to round off something within a reasonable time period. So to round off this and make it a proper rage post: Rage at people desperately seeking attention by ruining the fun for others.

Seir

Yep, Alastair pretty much hit the nail on the head. If Imperian had a way like Lithmeria does in handling population disparity in group fights, it'd be a perfectly balanced game. Each circle brings a strength/weakness to the table, each has strong ranged options that can contend with one another (each has a means of stripping cloak from a distance, for example).

As for the Lusternia, the only thing that I miss from Lusternia is village revolts. They were two hours of some of the most fun I've had ever. It was a way of involving both non-combatant influencers with combatants too.

As for holding events for players, I can understand the reluctance the administration can have because players can and usually will bitch about an event if it means that their organization is losing/being made victim of in any shape or form, which is sometimes necessary to move an event along.

Moirean

Conversely, though, us players shouldn't expect events to just be like movies we watch. Some of my most memorable times in Aetolia are the planning and reactions based on events - I first got to know Irruel, for example, in response to a random item that accidentally got dropped when someone DC'd during a Cabalist event. That tiny pool of corruption led to plans, plotting, the whole north tribes thing, etc.

I think we should make the most of what the gods do, and spin out the stories ourselves, as well.

Calipso

Moirean said:

Conversely, though, us players shouldn't expect events to just be like movies we watch. Some of my most memorable times in Aetolia are the planning and reactions based on events - I first got to know Irruel, for example, in response to a random item that accidentally got dropped when someone DC'd during a Cabalist event. That tiny pool of corruption led to plans, plotting, the whole north tribes thing, etc.

I think we should make the most of what the gods do, and spin out the stories ourselves, as well.

I know of several (including myself) that try to do just that. Take @Tsvanni for example, she has been trying very hard to spin out her own story concerning Djeir and even developed a Clan for it to try and get more players active into the RP she is conducting.

Moirean

That is slightly different. That is her making her own story/plot arcs altogether, and, while that kind of stuff can be really fun, we can't expect admin to be able to automatically step in on those sorts of things, as that's extra time they have to devote outside of other tasks/storylines they are already working on. I know that it can be frustrating, and I've definitely had personal stories that I wanted to be acknowledged on a larger scale, but sometimes you just have to keep on doing your own thing with other players.

Seir

(I'd just like to make a comment on Shadow Choke because a lot of people did complain about it. It was not nearly as bad as Retardation that existed elsewhere as Disloyalty would turn the choker's passive offense against them, thus effectively turning their double-edged sword against them and you'll likely win the fight. Whereas, you cannot reliably nor realistically turn a Mage's vibes against them.)

As for players making their own stories, it should probably be encouraged more. A few of the RPI's that I've played are stories usually completely driven and created by the playerbase and giving a slight "nudge" by "Storyteller" admins. Storyteller admins are those that just mpos'd mobs, talked with players, and set events in motion. While I hate to talk about other games, Imperian has the same thing in form of Docents. Given that Aetolia is probably more story and roleplay driven than Imperian, I've wanted to have something akin to Docents here forever. I think it would be pretty straight forward to allow players to read the notes for certain mobs so they'd effectively capture the personality or anything they need to know to push an event along or maybe an admin could just go to a "Docent" and tell them how they want to push an event forward. I'd be one of the first people to volunteer for such a position.

Daskalos

I can understand why they don't hold more events honestly - I know I barely want to participate in them a lot of times because the second Shadow notices Spirit grouped up, they dream up a reason and come kill everyone. 'Oh no, this mob might have POWER, WE MUST HAS IT'. I can't tell you how many times what should of been a small, quick RP event has lead to an hour long group fight because Shadow would rather be a unicorn than let anyone else have a bit of fun.

That and it got old with the RP arcs always being 'Shadow attacks, Spirit defends and wins but not without some sort of loss'. It sucks ALWAYS being the defender.

Moirean

Pfft, how dare you forget the mighty incursion of the droems.

Areka

There's also lines for creating your own stories. You can't expect Admin to jump in and endorse you being an exiled queen, or a racial goddess, etc - in effect trying to make your storyline canon. These things also take time, and a lot of work - look at the Ascendril as an example of that. Admin are focusing on the whole game and busy building and addressing things with the orgs they patron, don't patron, and planning more global things. 

Seir

Daskalos said:

I can understand why they don't hold more events honestly - I know I barely want to participate in them a lot of times because the second Shadow notices Spirit grouped up, they dream up a reason and come kill everyone. 'Oh no, this mob might have POWER, WE MUST HAS IT'. I can't tell you how many times what should of been a small, quick RP event has lead to an hour long group fight because Shadow would rather be a unicorn than let anyone else have a bit of fun.

That and it got old with the RP arcs always being 'Shadow attacks, Spirit defends and wins but not without some sort of loss'. It sucks ALWAYS being the defender.

 I don't recall instances where Shadow acts like a jerk to us in that regard. I have seen people though drop singularities on Eireachdus celebrations or something like that, which is lame.

Though, yeah, if your group has not been invited to an event via RP, it's fine to eavesdrop but don't go there trying to kill anyone and intruding in on the event. That would be INCREDIBLY lame if either side pulled a stunt like that.

Edit: Actually, scratch that. I do remember an instance. When new!Duiran came out and obviously had no guards, Yettave and a few other Bloodlochians immediately went there and started raiding and killing NPC's. They then went into Dendara and tried to kill the denizens there but we killed them beforehand. Yeah, that was dumb. None of those players are still around though.

Arbre

You say, in a feral tongue, "Gift."
An older leper woman says, "If you are willing, perhaps you could bring them a gift? They would truly love a jambaali."

You give the corpse of a fluffy jambaali to an older leper woman.
An older leper woman says, "In my youth I had one of these as a pet! The children will be delighted, thank you!"
Experience Gained: 22 (Quest) [total: 10880587]

An older leper woman says, "I know this is a lot to ask, but perhaps you could bring them another present?"
An older leper woman looks at you expectantly.

You say, in a feral tongue, "Gift."
An older leper woman says, "If you are willing, perhaps you could bring them a gift? They would truly love a jambaali."

You stare implacably at a pathetic leper.





There is one jambaali in the game.

Lin

That got really weird because I kept reading "jambalaya" without realizing it.

Iosyne

Delicious, fluffy jambalaya.

Arbre

[ Clawed - an older leper woman ]
Damage done: 371, blunt.
[ Murdered - an older leper woman ]
Experience Gained: 34 (Bashing) [total: 10881226]
Left Hand Balance Used: 2.70 seconds
You detect nothing here by that name.
H:6061 M:5921 E:27537 W:26400 18 Chakros 389 Dusk 0 [csdb eb -r]
"leper102224"       the corpse of an older leper woman. (dead)
H:6061 M:5866 E:27537 W:26400 18 Chakros 389 Dusk 0 [csdb eb -r] 17:59.08
You have recovered balance on your left arm.
H:6061 M:6050 E:27557 W:26400 18 Chakros 389 Dusk 0 [csdb eb lr] 17:59.10
You pick up the corpse of an older leper woman.

Rho

Not really rage, but more of an annoyance.

Guildmasters/Secretaries having a belief that members should conform to a certain trend and try to change them into it. Maybe I don't want to play an underhanded, sneaky Syssin, or a death-loving killhappy Carnifex, just as examples. Let your guild have some diversity!

Teani

Seir said:

 I don't recall instances where Shadow acts like a jerk to us in that regard. I have seen people though drop singularities on Eireachdus celebrations or something like that, which is lame.

Yeah, during the event where Syvelium died and Arion returned someone decided to drop a pit when things were about to be rounded off.

Moirean

Rho said:

Not really rage, but more of an annoyance.

Guildmasters/Secretaries having a belief that members should conform to a certain trend and try to change them into it. Maybe I don't want to play an underhanded, sneaky Syssin, or a death-loving killhappy Carnifex, just as examples. Let your guild have some diversity!

Eh, there is a limit with how much you can buck trends. I understand diversity, but why would you want to join a guild like Carnifex and then actively display no interest in bringing death, or play as a Sentinel who actively hates and tries to destroy the forests. Those are core guild traits and it kinda comes across as trollish (or at least a headache for guild leadership) to try to go against that. If you are going to try something radically different from the guild's outlook, I'd say make sure it's played out VERY well, to ensure it doesn't just come across as "lol I'm in your guild but flagrantly against everything you stand for."

Imho, a good way to handle a more unique take would be portraying it as a journey, like a Luminary overcoming a fear of fire over time. Iridian, for example, is playing a character who is reluctant to hurt others and RP with her is about exploring her growth towards a more militant personality. 

Haven

I wonder why people join guilds/cities sometimes.