Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE

Ingram

I've been having deafness and lipreading lately, but no mindseye because whateverIdon'treallyfightandreasons. Didn't occur to me that I've been missing shouts this entire time.

Witty as they are, always, but still.

Nalor

Yes since he only attacks noncoms or novices... He doesnt do it to PKers.  @Daskalos

Irruel

I honestly think the issue is the ooc environment among the pvp clans.
Something goes wrong, and an ego rants about it making the inexperienced people that screwed up feel like shit.

Then people like Daskalos (rightly so) came down on this behaviour like a ton of bricks.

But now, we have an environment where nothing gets discussed at all. A poor showing like the one you described, Calipso, happens, and then everyone retreats to do their own non-pvp thing and no one wants to discuss what went wrong, because the culture went from "insult each other about it" to "don't say anything at all because why would you? Someone might get rude about it, and then we'll all get in the shit."

Communication is key. Everyone needs to know what to do, when, where and why, before starting. Then when it all goes to hell, we need to talk about why and how not to repeat it next time. This process can be, and should be, fun.

If it is fun, there won't be the burn out. But everyone has to be involved otherwise it is just a small group getting better and everyone else staying the same. Which means the stronger pvpers feel like they're sticking their heads into a bucket of drowning kittens. Burnout is inevitable.

Daskalos

You're asking us to police another player, but that's not our job. If you believe what he is doing is illegal, then issue him and let @Veritas sort if out, as is their job. Our official stance is 'they're too far away to protect' but it would be atrocious RP for the city of Light to tell someone to stop protecting an area that is literally filled with angels.

Ishin

The city didn't back me protecting Spirean income, either, @Daskalos, but I still got told to knock it off. I just think it goes a pretty good ways to point out that I got issued several times over it, and he doesn't seem to have gotten a single one - yet.

@Xavin - you know the game is divided between 'us' and 'them' bro, just as well as I do. If you're not on my team, you're against it, and that's more or less just the way it is. He's certainly not on OUR side, so he must be on THEIR side. See what I mean?

@Haven - I don't even think it's that, really, dude. I think that, by and large, our side of the game is far, far more interested in 'winning' and we go to large levels of effort to ensure that we DO win. We've got all kinds of things to help make our PK more efficient, both when solo -and- in teams. We take it seriously, and it seems like you guys don't.

Daskalos

@Ishin - You were protecting Spirean income, a monetary possession. Angels are literally worshipped and revered. It's a different set of circumstances,  but again, Enorian doesn't officially protect. If you guys have a huge problem with it, why aren't you letting the admin sort this out?

As for PK, it's circular. We take PK quite serious, but it is disheartening when we'll have a group that is equal to what Loch can muster, and Loch won't come out to a fight, and then they gripe about 'not getting a fight' when we won't come out against 1 to 2 odds.

Moirean

I am burnt out on PK (among other things) and really want a break from handling the cat-herding that is leading/training new fighters. I still enjoy a decent fight where I'm working with someone who I know can handle themself, know what to do and not need handholding - Toz, Ilyon, Ezalor, Irruel, these are all fun people to fight beside, but when I have to give lots of directions and handle things like stopping every channeled attack or repeatedly telling people to touch cloak, apply mass, impale on a tumble, etc, it gets tiring. Don't get me wrong - I like seeing new fighters and I do spend time helping them out, but I am tired of constantly having to work them through their own systems or people making the same mistakes repeatedly. 

That kind of stuff happens in the learning process, but it does become frustrating to constantly face as a teacher. I'm not really ranting and, please, any of you newer fighters please don't feel bad about my current attitude - it's more burnout and my patience being fried than anything else. I still do enjoy seeing new fighters get involved and I do show up and spend time helping with PK on Moi because I'm a GM and CL and I need to set a PK example, but I'm not really enjoying it very much currently. It happens.

When I'm on my lifer alt, I have no desire to do that sort of leading/micromanaging the noncomms/newer fighters, and most fights nobody else wants to step up to do that, so I avoid PK for the most part on Ariadne. I listen for calls for help via Dion and never hear anyone rallying the troops, so I happily continue doing other stuff like bashing or RP.

I got dragged into leading that team at the grotto the other day and that went really well...but then every single noncom/newer fighter who had valiantly showed up and participated was hunted down by PKers and dragged back into PK after we had called it and ended it, which just killed any sort of decent taste the fights had left in my mouth. I know I'm hardly one to argue restraint given my history, but...come on. It's hard enough to get newer people involved. Hunting them all down when the team rumble was mutually over was, frankly, lame PK farming and just  PKers bullying newbs. Both sides do it, but it definitely doesn't help with things.

/half-musingrant, half-explanation

Toz

RP-protection of places is dumb. We got yelled at for 'interfering' in an event in Jaru (when it was being restored) OOCly - apparently my/Borsc's status as Carnifex wasn't adequate reason for us to even BE IN THE AREA during a restoration event, and opened us up to a 3v16, because ???. Me killing a frog in Torston was reason enough for Dwodin to show up, then Trager to get summoned, and then Conner to stand by, and then finally Daskalos to come in (though at least he explained over skype that it was Dwodin calling for help...) - no, I can't say I'm exactly impressed by the level of RP displayed in any of this. At least, in Dwodin's credit, he did say something first. RP-protect of an area, fine. But RP-protect of another 2-3 areas, then protection via personal RP of a fourth by 1 person? Stupid lame. There are all kinds of reasons to get involved in defending an area, from 'they fight like us' (Arurer) to 'They look like us' (Xoran with Xaanhal) to 'This is our turf, WE are the only ones allowed to be big and bad here!' (any bashing area ever) - none of these reasons are particularly fun for one side of the conflict. Usually the one getting their head bashed in over it while they're just trying to raise gold/explore/look for quests.

Daskalos

Enorian's RP of Torston\Tainhelm\Jaru\Arbothia has been going on for nearly a decade. That's established, and has been upheld time and again (see the army Enorian mustered against Juxa, platoons from allied villages helped). On a personal note, I like Dwodin. He wants to learn PK, wants to be good, and generally has RP'ed a fairly rigid character. But, at this point, this thread is becoming a 'bash Dwodin' thread (which is not what forums are about) and less about the issue. If you have an issue, -file- an issue. Let the admin decide, but we're never going to agree on this.

Ishin

Why do we have to issue though, Dask? Is it really too much to ask YOU to go, 'Hey bro, what you're doing isn't okay, knock it off please.'

I know I've done it a few times to people. Not to mention whoever else has done it.

Xavin

I think the problem is it happens on both sides, as the recent issue with the conflict over the corrupted grotto place shows.

Daskalos

I'm going to go on record here and say that the GM of the Luminary guild is not going to say 'I'm opposed to you protecting angels'. Sorry, bro. You have your options, I've never been one to let forum groupthink dictate how I play Daskalos.

Ishin

It should be common sense and decency, not forum groupthink bro.

Mariena

On getting non-coms interested in combat: I am a non-com. I make serious efforts to learn and I understand the overall concept of it, however I am not good with fast-scrolling screens. They alternately give me wicked vertigo (a problem I have in a multitude of games) or I just can't keep up with what I need to do visually. I think I'm alright if I have a puppeteer behind me going, "You spam this until you're dead. Go go." I can do that! But as for learning/participating in combat: I have been unable to fully immerse into it due to pace/vertigo/omgwhat? What's happening what do I do?! feelings. I seriously just don't enjoy it.

That said, I try to chuck as many new players towards our guild guru @Aishia as possible and we have a clan set up for Shaman combat, that I chuck non-Shaman shamans into if they want to learn from Aishia too.

Setne

Lack of affordable and easily acclimated to system, lessons to learn skills are my main issues with trying to join combat. I tried yesterday, but I don't have aliases setup for Syssin and have 0 clue what to do as Werebear.

Arbre

Both sides have said their piece several times over.  Move on.

Toz

Setne said:

Lack of affordable and easily acclimated to system, lessons to learn skills are my main issues with trying to join combat. I tried yesterday, but I don't have aliases setup for Syssin and have 0 clue what to do as Werebear.

Right leg

Minarael

I think this game needs more methods of conflict generation for PKers. Or maybe something like the automatic arena events. 

Haven

Gimme war system!

Riluo

I miss war above all else

Ingram

I rage that players think they should never have bad things happen to them ever because it's a game.

RP interaction, depth, severity would all be improved if people were punished accordingly. It'd force them to act and realize their decisions and actions have consequences, like real life. Which is what we're largely trying to imitate here. There's limits, of course, like death and whatnot.

But if you commit treason or the like, you're an idiot for whining about not being able to get back in with those you betrayed and crossed within a RL week.

Calipso

Dourif said:

@Calipso you brought 6 people to a lesser against 3 and you all hit different targets. What do you expect when you're all obviously not communicating?

That's the problem and why I wish to pull my hair out. I believe that goes under the category of inexperience.

Ishin said:

Xavin I feel you on the last sentence you wrote there, man. But, to be honest, when people are like 'Hey person <x> is trolling <y> bashing area with some lame RP crap.' and then the response is 'Lol it's his RP.', then tbh bro, it doesn't leave us with such a good taste in our mouths. I used to do the same in Three Rock, because Spireans could turn in bandit corpses to the Warden guy at the time and make pretty decent gold off of it. I got told to knock it off, because despite RP, it wasn't 'fair' or some crap for me to do that to people.

Yet here are your people doing the very same thing, and nobody seems to care. See the discrepancy yet?

@Ishin I'd believe you and agree with your statement if the 'massive zerging' had begun after, but it's been like this for quite some time now. Honestly I just feel that the reason such large numbers appear is because it is the only available mechanic currently for org conflict and so players (especially darkies with their larger numbers) will hop onto any chance they get for it.

Haven said:

Lighters could match the Darkies if their noncoms were interested in combat. Especially considering how arti'd to the teeth some of them are. Unfortunately... they're not interested in getting involved one way or another. Until more PKers join the Light side or someone figures out a way to motivate the noncoms into participating in combat, I don't see the scene changing much if at all.

@Haven the problem is also that non-coms or inexperienced players for some reason take command anyway in fights and just lead to a massacre. I dont understand..if they dont wish to become apt at combat, then why do they feel the need to try and wrestle command and do something like, as Dourif said, everyone targeting a different target and standing 1 room away thinking the enemy wont use beckon.

Lin

Then what the hell were all the lessers 

Maghak

Please don't post repeatedly instead of using the edit button. I have condensed your consecutive posts into one for ease of reading.

Calipso

Maghak said:

Please don't post repeatedly instead of using the edit button. I have condensed your consecutive posts into one for ease of reading.

ty. Got carried away

Dourif

Bring back the Landmarking system with a 'landmarking aura' to stop the constant chasing and issues over griefing/pk out of the Landmarking area. Please. 

Teani

@Calipso: I've attempted to lead on a few occasions (at times when I've actually known what I'm doing) and ben completely overrun.

* They've not listened to me calling targets, even though I have calling set up.

* They've left the group to go about their own business instead of waiting for everyone to be ready, because I was slightly slower to move than they are used to.

* They've bitched about dying because the rest of the group wasn't on their tail when they were the ones wandering off.

* They've responded with condescending tones when I've voiced complaints about them not actually allowing me to get some field experience when there's been little harm in taking the time to set things up.

These are just a few things that made me, as a less experienced combatant lose interest in trying to lead again.

Benedicto

@Toz will likely agree with me on this but after looking back over the old forums "Owned" thread has really highlighted the near extinction of 1v1 pk which I found to be a solid precursor to team combat.

Ishin

I still 1v1!!!

Toz

Benedicto said:

@Toz will likely agree with me on this but after looking back over the old forums "Owned" thread has really highlighted the near extinction of 1v1 pk which I found to be a solid precursor to team combat.

I finally finished reading that thread. From the start, 1v1 was sort of 'endangered' it seemed - lots more logs of 'look this scrub got ganked' and 'lulz I won a 1v3' than I expected, even from like 2008. I also wonder how well Andalso and co. would fare nowadays, with everyone having a ridic system/teamfight capabilities - instakill immunity would be tricky, but I'm pretty sure we could damage kill them hard if we tried.