Mildly Irritating: Aetolia's Pet Peeves

Ayukazi

You know what really peeves me off. When cities like Bloodloch and Spinesreach jack their prices upon production and reduce their purchasing prices of agricultural comms to the point that the skill only hurts the agriculturalists and helps the city. People already pay money for the skill and have to pay for production, which is meant to be a mutual arrangement between city and agriculturalist, while the agriculturalist also sells the needed commodities to the city to help bring up comms and mitigate their own cost. Not slave labor.

Let's take for instance Bloodloch. The steelworks charges 1350 gp currently to make 9 steel, while Bloodloch buys back the steel for 250 gold. In order to even break even with this by selling back to the city, a miner would have to sell back 7 of their 9 steel. Goldbar is charged 1800 for 11 goldbar, and Bloodloch buys them at 400. This means you have to sell back 5. Silver is 1000 for 11, and the city pays 250 for them, which means you have to sell back 4. While silver and gold are getting close to half of your commodities, steel leaves you with barely any. Let us compare this to Enorian, where their foundry, steelworks, and smeltery all work for 60 gold per cycle. Enorian buys steel back for 30, so a citizen would only have to give up 2 of 9 steel. I will not get into the rest of the numbers, as these are polar opposites of Bloodloch, but a mutual arrangement is met with Enorian and their agriculturalists -- if more for the agriculturalists than the welfare of city needs. This builds good morale with citizens while making sure that both profit.

It would be far more reasonable to reduce these prices to no more than a third of a city's production value, just as Bloodloch's farming commodities are set at. While these are still higher than other cities, it would offer a mutual progression of both agriculturalist and city profits without taking advantage of the citizen. Both city and agriculturalists would profit with gold and commodities, much unlike what is set up now.

Tetchta

1350/9 = 150 gold per steel. Over 350 purchases from village shops over the past couple of months, I've only seen steel get close to being that cheap once ever (I bought 14 for 159 gold once; on average I spend 210 per). 163 gold per goldbar and 90 per silver doesn't even compare to the lowest prices I've bought those comms for (202 for goldbar 138 for silver, average of 297 and 193 respectively).

What I'm getting at is, even at these prices, the price-per-commodity is cheaper than any other method of commodity generation. By a LOT, which I think is what mining's main purpose is: to provide commodities. I'd argue that being able to get commodities at this crazy low price is pretty good for miners regardless, because not only do they get cheaper comms, but a steady supply of them (whereas villages you have to hope you get lucky from). Profit seems like a bit of a silver lining to the actual production here, I think. It's no arbitrage, sure, but, hey, you got steel and gold! Would probably be nice for the profit margin to be wider, but it's still a pretty decent deal.

Seurimas

You could always start a revolution about it. Miner's Rights!

Ayukazi

If you are talking about Enorian's low prices, I would agree. However, I believe that the layout of Bloodloch was based on two factors that were not thought out to be one machine. The first was to compare sale prices to that of an inflated market at commodity shops and reduce purchase prices to save the city gold so that it may grow its production facilities (or whatever the city does with its gold these days). The second was to add heavy inflation on the production of a resource immediately to bring in gold from the loss of facility purchases.

While it may be understandable to try and bounce back from large production purchases, doing so at the cost of people starting out with their mines at such a heavy rate is not a smart marketing model. Should they want to keep all of their resources, this comes out of their pocket and is quite expensive at the end of the season for some people. Should they want to break even, in the cost of the product, they end up with in the sake of steel only two steel per cycle. The city profits with both gold and resources, while the individual has to come out of pocket a heavy burden of either gold or resources.

While I see your point and agree that a steady income of commodities is a good thing to have, inflation at startup to motivate people to either donate or force sell back at low income to have little commodities for themselves is a trickle into poverty, making this a loss and will ultimately leave many people abandoning this skill unless they can afford it. That is not fair to the players, especially since the system is built to replenish both the city AND the player of the losses incurred.

Saidenn

Bloodloch's production prices are partially based on Spinesreach's production because we currently have an agreement to where we make certain facilities cheaper for both cities until we can get our own to level 3. Bloodloch as smeltery, Spinesreach has steelworks.

Prices were set to give a modest return to the miner if they intend to sell all of their commodities, or if theya re mining diligently, to give them enough to break even and then have a fair amount left over.

For example: I recently made 99 bars of gold. I sold 65 of them to make back production cost in Bloodloch and kept the other 34.

If people are in this to make a MASSIVE profit quickly - then no, that is not likely to happen. From my understanding, Spinesreach ran into that when farming was released, and it was hemorrhaging gold. As of right now, Spinesreach sets all its prices, based on its comm prices, to see a 25% return on production fees. While this may not mean that all investment into a mine startup is returned in one season, it is not intended to do that. It is intended to be steady income with a return that allows cities to evaluate their status and see what is supportable, and what is not.

Not sure how much of a return anyone is hoping to see with commodities, but as with anything new, a smart decision as a financial entity is to step your loss. If we can support the loss at a wider profit margin, then you'll production costs lower. If not? It may be slimmer.

And frankly, it SHOULD be a choice of profit or loss whether you keep commodities or not, it shouldn't be a question of profit AND keeping a ton of commodities.

TL;DR: Sorry if Bloodloch has not published to use Spinesreach steelworks. You want a better deal, use Spirean steelworks until BL upgrades their own to level 3.

Elene

I haven't read the posts properly yet, but.

Man, I am realizing the fact that Bloodloch comm stores are buying our gold bars at 400gp is already eye-opening. I heard Duiran set their buy-prices of gold bars at 40gp. That's so little! But then again, like Enorian, I have to take a look at what their CITY PRODUCTION INFO prices are.

Ultimately, while I was working on compiling all this information, I do realise the production prices for Enorian are all pretty dirt cheap, even for non-citizens. Duiran's isn't so dirt cheap, but they are about equal or a little less than Spinesreach's prices.

Ayukazi

Cities should not be in a place of hemorrhaging gold, but a balance should still be met where cities are not price-gouging their citizens. While a 25% return on production fees sounds reasonable, this is based on comm prices, which again are set by the cities that tend to charge more than the commodity shops for the simple reason of having the commodities on demand. I don't think that anyone is looking to get a massive profit quickly, except maybe the cities, but I may be wrong. One would like to err on the side of believing in people.

As far as what is seen sending from Bloodloch to Spinesreach, I can tell three things visually. Bloodloch's smeltery is a level 1, which charges 1350 for 9 steel. Spinesreach is a level 3, which charges a Bloodlochian sending their steel to Spinesreach 1650 for 11. They come out as even, 150 per steel, so I do not see the point you are making unless you are talking about having someone from Spinesreach process this for a Bloodlochian at their prices. If this better deal is the case by sending to a friendly, why not reduce these prices for Bloodloch outright instead? While it may take more time to send caravans there, it is reliable and can be handled by the one who owns the mine. This would likely gain more interest in the process.

Ayukazi

Again, no more than a one-third return on production fees is suitable to maintain a city while taking care of citizens. This being that what you pay out for processing comms should only take one-third of your comms sold to the city to break even. This wins the city both comms and gold, based on the need of the person selling to the city without price gouging. With this being reasonable, more people would likely support these agricultural skills.

As it stands, one person can only have up to five farms and one mine. Each of these can offer several different commodities that are used regularly. Should the cities let their citizens know what is needed, citizens can take the choice to direct their agriculture in that direction. At a one-third return, a citizen can choose to keep half of what is left and donate the rest to their city, should they so be inclined. It would cause better motivation, supplemented as well with city involvement rewards.

Elene

Ayukazi said:

Cities should not be in a place of hemorrhaging gold, but a balance should still be met where cities are not price-gouging their citizens. While a 25% return on production fees sounds reasonable, this is based on comm prices, which again are set by the cities that tend to charge more than the commodity shops for the simple reason of having the commodities on demand. I don't think that anyone is looking to get a massive profit quickly, except maybe the cities, but I may be wrong. One would like to err on the side of believing in people. As far as what is seen sending from Bloodloch to Spinesreach, I can tell three things visually. Bloodloch's smeltery is a level 1, which charges 1350 for 9 steel. Spinesreach is a level 3, which charges a Bloodlochian sending their steel to Spinesreach 1650 for 11. They come out as even, 150 per steel, so I do not see the point you are making unless you are talking about having someone from Spinesreach process this for a Bloodlochian at their prices. If this better deal is the case by sending to a friendly, why not reduce these prices for Bloodloch outright instead? While it may take more time to send caravans there, it is reliable and can be handled by the one who owns the mine. This would likely gain more interest in the process.

This better deal is something that will need to be discussed between cities, because prices cannot be modified to affect only a single org. It only has two settings: citizen prices, and non-citizen prices. While what can be done is discuss for both cities to sign a trade agreement which would allow citizens of either BL or Spines to use each other's citizen prices, I think this is probably something worth bringing up in-game. I personally think this is something that wouldn't be a bad move forward, if we're looking not only to benefit an org by replenishing their comms but also benefit the agriculturist by ensuring they don't make too much of a loss. More voices in-game would certainly help a shift in mentality, because a single voice definitely gets drowned out pretty easily.

Tetchta

Xaspher

Disclaimer: I'm not moderating this by any means but this conversation/debate might be better served in game, no?

Who knows? Maybe some fun RP scenarios may arise.

Ehtias

RP isn't real, also consider that mining has a bunch of things that cost gold as well to start mining with production fees also. I'm not sure you actually make a profit at all even if you sell every bar you make right now. Between initial setup items and comms, needing comms for crates to ship with. Bombs to get nests, bombs to remove damps. I think I'm still going further negative I'd have to go check my sheet I made.

Doesn't account for bombs which get used quite a bit. This is in steel bars with the current profit after production for shadow, does not include the warehouse fees either if applicable.

8 bars Mining Office(4 wood 110 gp current price x 4)
2 bars per shipment due to wood cost
10 bars per canary - 1 per miner (30 or 40 if you carry one)
50 per miner contract x 3 (150)
10 per cart x 3 (30)
1 per 50 torches - 150 torches to get min darkness(varies i think mine took 200+ torches)
2 per 50 rails - Variable, used 250 rails current mine
8 per lever - 3 levers (variable mine layout)
8 per switch - 3 switches (variable mine layout)

Aeryx

Not in reference to the Bloodloch and Spinesreach stuff listed above, but one of my pet peeves so far has been my own experience of people immediately taking economic decisions and policies and what people price their goods at immediately out of character. I've been cursed at by people out of character and verbally assaulted over what I used to do with my Herbalism prices. My recommendation to them at the time was to deal with it in character and suggested maybe some sort of treaty about pricing policy on Spirit side or a law for the two cities to set.  In the end neither thing happened and I just got tired of being cursed at and called names and dropped Herbalism and picked up Toxicology instead.

Moral of the story, I agree entirely with Xaspher.

Sryaen

Aeryx said:

Not in reference to the Bloodloch and Spinesreach stuff listed above, but one of my pet peeves so far has been my own experience of people immediately taking economic decisions and policies and what people price their goods at immediately out of character. I've been cursed at by people out of character and verbally assaulted over what I used to do with my Herbalism prices. My recommendation to them at the time was to deal with it in character and suggested maybe some sort of treaty about pricing policy on Spirit side or a law for the two cities to set.  In the end neither thing happened and I just got tired of being cursed at and called names and dropped Herbalism and picked up Toxicology instead.

Moral of the story, I agree entirely with Xaspher.

Didn't this happen months ago? And tbh, people are free to set their prices whatever they feel like. But any shopkeeper should be fully prepared to receive any backlash for majorly undercutting their competitors, especially if the city has shop policy in place that lets people price stuff however they like. So yeah, while this should have probably been handled ICly, do you think it would've made you felt any better if this person was jumping down your throat in-game versus in OOC tells or web or whatever? This brings into question what sort of things players can do to hold others accountable, because in this instance if Sryaen had a problem with Aeryx regarding shop pricing stuff, there's very little he could do legally and essentially, if you got tired of hearing about it ICly, you could just smack that ignore function and go about your merry day.

Iazamat

All of this ranting has made me realize that the warehouse fees are incredibly dumb. Yes, they're a pure goldsink, but they're also nothing more than a penalty for not doing perfect math and just trying to play the game. GUH.

Edit: Also, do we really need to be able to do something about another player/character undercutting everyone else? They're either not making gold or will eventually lose steam to maintain the level that allows them to undercut. As long as you aren't overcharging, you're still going to see sales. It's one thing to be annoyed OOC about it, and I can even understand talking to them about it IC, but it's a completely different and completely unnecessary thing to come at someone sideways over OOC. "Oh no, they're making less gold than I am per sale and doing more work to maintain it!"

Edit2: And if you all really feel the need to enforce that IC, then make trade coalitions/marketeering alliances/whatever and get that RP rolling. Until you do, though, don't expect anyone to just play ball with you, and if you're getting increasingly aggressive/naggy about it IC, they have every right to slap that ignore button and call it a day. You are not entitled to someone else's time, RP, or efforts.

Tetchta

Iazamat said:

Edit: Also, do we really need to be able to do something about another player/character undercutting everyone else?

simply buy their cheap stock and put it in your shop at your prices, boom ez

Xaspher

Sryaen said:

Aeryx said:

Not in reference to the Bloodloch and Spinesreach stuff listed above, but one of my pet peeves so far has been my own experience of people immediately taking economic decisions and policies and what people price their goods at immediately out of character. I've been cursed at by people out of character and verbally assaulted over what I used to do with my Herbalism prices. My recommendation to them at the time was to deal with it in character and suggested maybe some sort of treaty about pricing policy on Spirit side or a law for the two cities to set.  In the end neither thing happened and I just got tired of being cursed at and called names and dropped Herbalism and picked up Toxicology instead.

Moral of the story, I agree entirely with Xaspher.

Didn't this happen months ago? And tbh, people are free to set their prices whatever they feel like. But any shopkeeper should be fully prepared to receive any backlash for majorly undercutting their competitors, especially if the city has shop policy in place that lets people price stuff however they like. So yeah, while this should have probably been handled ICly, do you think it would've made you felt any better if this person was jumping down your throat in-game versus in OOC tells or web or whatever? This brings into question what sort of things players can do to hold others accountable, because in this instance if Sryaen had a problem with Aeryx regarding shop pricing stuff, there's very little he could do legally and essentially, if you got tired of hearing about it ICly, you could just smack that ignore function and go about your merry day.

While... I suppose in your example a person could frivolously ignore you, mechanically or otherwise, but there's still some recourse in game at your disposal if it's something your character is really passionate about. The rest of the game doesn't stop existing.

You could form a coalition among other shopkeepers to apply political pressure. Laws could be changed. Treaties formed. Secret pacts and so on to tax those outside the "Merchant Code/Guild". You could even maybe bribe the person to make it worth their while if it hasn't reached ignoring each other yet. There's a lot of RP potential here to find IG solutions without ever needing to interact with the person or bypass ignore. There's even more strategies that could be utilized if you're just trying to bring the offending party to the table to talk. There's really no situation where berating someone OOC for an IC action is called for unless you're like friends that understand you're just venting at each other or something. If they're breaking game rules, there's steps to take there as well to get it resolved without resorting to berating someone OOC.

If that's too much effort for you (general you here) for what is a viable IG action then... I'm afraid with competition, not everyone can be winners.

Disclaimer: This isn't to say people can't gripe/vent/complain. But people aren't quite as powerless as they think. It might take shaking up the status quo and norms of your org but options are available.

Toz

Torches are cheaper than bombs for clearing damp, you cowards.

Tetchta

Nipsy

....and then we can rise up against Delve, and truly upturn the tyranny of the Albedi capitalists

Alela

Toz said:

Torches are cheaper than bombs for clearing damp, you cowards.

you joke, but this is literally how I clear My damps

Toz

Alela said:

Toz said:

Torches are cheaper than bombs for clearing damp, you cowards.

you joke, but this is literally how I clear My damps

I was not joking.

Seurimas

Toz said:

Torches are cheaper than bombs for clearing damp, you cowards.

Gutram's blood is on your hands, but also on the hands of me doing "ORDER GNOME REST" instead of "ORDER GUTRAM REST" and not realizing he was still following me back to the damp 😭

I'm gonna stick to sonic bombs from now on.

Toz

LOSE GNOME is what I usually do! It also blows up the canary if you leave it behind which is funny. And now I wonder if they count for great hunt points...

Saidenn

It sets fire to your mounts, too. Although fighting direants inside an inferno is pretty metal.

Araseth

You know what. You were right. I was trippin hard. Had a broke tooth needed to come out, pain really can drive you crazy. My apologies.

Araseth

And yes that's a sincere apology. I often underestimate how strongly people feel about a topic. I withdraw any and all accusations. Sorry again, hope your day can go a little better now. Thanks for putting up with me and my many failures.

Qelres

Along with these files, we've now opened the customisation system to Warden Simulacrums.

But we still can't customize bone helms

Iesid

Qelres said:

Along with these files, we've now opened the customisation system to Warden Simulacrums. But we still can't customize bone helms

I shall immediately divert all lobbying efforts! I haven't forgotten about this!

Tetchta

This is super petty (a pet peeve if you will) but "tidings" or "[good/dark] tidings" is not a greeting. "Tidings" means "news." One can be the bearer of "dark tidings" or "good tidings" but it's not a greeting. If you say "dark tidings," you're suggesting you're either responding to bad news or have some bad news to impart. If you just say "tidings," it's also a bit nosensical, but you might also be suggesting you have news to share.

I have no idea how this became a thing in the game; nearest as I can guess is that someone used to greet their orgs by saying "What tidings?" or something to that effect, and it's somehow boiled down into some goofy greeting that makes it seem like you're trying really hard to sound archaic within the context of the game's world, but are just sayin' somethin' that's absolutely silly and makes no sense.