Mildly Irritating: Aetolia's Pet Peeves

Illikaal

Tetchta

Our side does that too.

Araseth

That doesn't make it right. Both sides should stop. It's unnecessary. Either that, or acknowledge the open secret and abolish the rule so everyone can just go ham on it. But, as in life, I am not truly surprised the rules only apply to a select few. Thus is the way of the world, and we are all worse off for it. Doesn't mean I have to like it, and doesn't mean I'm not going to fight against what I see as unfair.

But what do I know I'm just some n00b. Have fun out there.

Tetchta

It might be technically metagaming, but I'm kinda okay with someone droppin' into discord to be like "yo, something cool is happening in game." Whether that's group combat (Orrery) or a big event, whatever. Our characters are meant to be a constant presence in the world, so them wakin' up when something's going down is pretty believable. Group PVP is, like, at least 30% metagaming anyway (and that's a generous estimate), so eh. I'm okay with it. (I also don't think it's against any of the rules afaik, but I could be wrong about that. Def unenforceable tho.)

Araseth

Fine, then we should just get rid of the rule. Why do we have it? It's pointless, it's rarely enforced, it does nothing.

Tetchta

What rule?

Araseth

Q: Are there other types of OOC behavior I should know about?

A: Allowing information that your character would not reasonably know to
affect their actions; referred to as 'metagaming', is another type of OOC
behavior to avoid. In example, if another player told you in a chat window
about something a mutual friend did, and in turn, your character approached
the friend and asked about it, this is an instance of metagaming. While this
example is benign, the affects of metagaming can and often do escalate to
staggering lengths. While metagaming is hard to police and not as obvious as other OOC actions, we depend upon
players themselves to be careful about separating OOC knowledge from character's knowledge. That said, help scrolls
and honors are considered general knowledge.

Under help OOC.

I guess that's not a rule. I misread it. So, I apologize for implying rules were being broken. No, just a bunch of players who feel they can't succeed without an unfair advantage. All is right and well in the world, ain't nothing changed, carry on.

Tetchta

I'm not sure "being informed that an event/something is happening, maybe you'd have fun while logged in" really falls under that umbrella, since any character living in the world would reasonably know about a massive group scrap going on somewhere. I think this is less metagaming and more a "suspend your disbelief" thing because not all of us can be logged in 24/7 and realistically respond to things our characters would wake up for.

Iazamat

Honest question: if they already had the numbers (and were winning?), what does it matter if they pinged Discord or if the people just logged in to play or because they saw the death feed? And if they saw the death feed and logged in, is that metagaming?

Araseth

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about having a direct feed of the web we use for combat, and the strategies we're using. If Shadow tether knows within seconds what Spirit is saying on Side Line, I know nothing of it. But I know for a fact that everything we say in our web is almost immediately sent to Spirit, because I"ve seen reactions to things I've said in web by Spirit players minutes later, and they were most certainly not in our web at the time I said it.

Tetchta

I'm not sure what you're referencing, but that's not metagaming either. Short of someone having a script that autotells web contents to someone (if so, jesus christ), I'm not sure this is some huge problem other than it's definitely not fair play if folk are conveying web strategy to the opposing side. But it's still not metagaming, it's OOC spying. And if any of those things are happening I'd def love to see some evidence 'cause yowzers that is quite the claim.

Araseth

I have been told by MULTIPLE people, including those who had recently come from Spirit, "Don't trust Shadow web." and "Don't say anything in Shadow web you don't want Spirit to know about immediately." That is ridiculou. But it's been proven true time and time again, and I'm sick of it. But I've only been around less than 2 years, I suppose everyone is happy with the situation as is and I'm the lone outlying voice railing against the inevitable. So I'll shut about it, I've said what I wanted to say. Nothing's going to change. I'm not ok with it, but I've donw what I can within the boundaries of the rules. I'll get over it. It doesn't matter. Have fun out there.

Thus endeth the sermon.

Iazamat

Webs aren't private, regardless. If you say something over web, expect it to go places. And it's definitely not tipping the scales in their favour at group PK.

Tetchta

Araseth said:

"Don't say anything in Shadow web you don't want Spirit everyone to know about immediately."

ftfy. Web isn't a private club. In fact, it's one of the most public spaces in the game. Again, I'm not sure what this is referencing, but claiming there's some direct pipeline from shadow web to spirit that's somehow impacting our group combat capabilities is a huge claim and is gonna require evidence.

Illikaal

Araseth said:

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about having a direct feed of the web we use for combat, and the strategies we're using. If Shadow tether knows within seconds what Spirit is saying on Side Line, I know nothing of it. But I know for a fact that everything we say in our web is almost immediately sent to Spirit, because I"ve seen reactions to things I've said in web by Spirit players minutes later, and they were most certainly not in our web at the time I said it.

So you're inferring that the fight you lost just before you made this post this was due to some knowledge that we divined from some conversation you had in the web?

Araseth

Draw your own conclusions. I know for a fact that every single player in this game is highly intelligent. Off the charts. No stupid here at all. And knowing how intelligent people act, and what they do, I find certain recent events highly suspect. I am inferring nothing. Draw your on conclusions. People know what they do, and I sincerely hope no one is lying to themselves to that degree, because that would be an even greater tragedy among such an incredibly talented group of people. It is what it is.

Tetchta

Okay so you have no evidence and are just bein silly. Please stop spreading baseless rumors because you're tilted at taking an L, my guy.

Iazamat

Yah, baseless accusations against nearly the entire game isn't a great look. If you don't like your web chatter being spread around and making you look like an awful person, clean up what you say in web.

Araseth

I said what I had to say. I'm not trying to convict anyone of anything. Make the mistake of thinking I'm stupid if you want. It doesn't matter to me anymore.

Araseth

Also, although I refuse to speak to details of issues I've been involved in pertaining to metagaming, I shall only say they exist, and I came out on the right side of them. So, baseless is a strong word here, in my own experience. You may have had a different experience. THat's fine.

Tetchta

Making claims without a scrap of evidence is the definition of "baseless." We can all claim all day to have had hidden Very Real experiences with something, but if we're unable or unwilling to produce literally anything to show for it, there's no reason why an onlooker should believe us. Especially given that Aetolia is such a widely-logged game. There's evidence everywhere.

Sryaen

low quality shitpost inc

Araseth

Then don't believe me. That's fine. Ignore this thread. Do as thou will. The truth shall remain the truth, regardless of your "belief." I saw something I don't like, and I've said something about it. I haven't issued anyone pertaining to the metagaming, so I will present no evidence. Again, you are welcome to completely ignore this. I really don't care.

Tetchta

Like, I mean, if you were just doin' something silly and harmless, yeah, it'd be easy to ignore, but you're making (as @Iazamat said) really audacious claims about a pretty big chunk of the game, and you ought to either knock it off and apologize, or provide proof to back up said claims. 'cause right now it just seems like you got caught fibbing and are trying to exit the situation with grace while somehow avoiding your culpability.

Sryaen

Araseth said:

Then don't believe me. That's fine. Ignore this thread. Do as thou will. The truth shall remain the truth, regardless of your "belief." I saw something I don't like, and I've said something about it. I haven't issued anyone pertaining to the metagaming, so I will present no evidence. Again, you are welcome to completely ignore this. I really don't care.

So, legitimately, I have no idea what you're even talking about. I think it's been discussed a few times before that there's really nothing wrong with nudging people on Discord 10/20/30 min prior to a major that there's one spawning, or that Orrery is about to start in however many minutes. I dunno what niche side of Spirit you were on, but firing up the Bat Signal to boost our numbers up in a losing battle isn't something we're in the habit of doing.

However, if you've got receipts to back this up, I'd love to see them; because if metagaming was such a huge problem here on Spirit as you say it is, I 100% have an issue with that type of behavior (ex. metagaming character info, elections, events, etc). But if the last few day's worth of in-game shouting is any indicator, this seems to be more an issue that you can't take a L with some measure of dignity* and instead felt the need to try and justify it on your forum soapbox.

* - I'm guilty of this too, at times, full disclosure. But it's something I've been working on.

Illikaal

Just to add to everything that's been said, I literally do not even understand what happened here that could possibly be construed as us metagaming somehow? What exactly happened in this log to indicate any sort of metagaming happened that caused us to win this, presumably, fight we wouldn't have won?

https://ada-young.com/pastebin/sVWfOTI9

Araseth

Lol.

Xavin

@Araseth I'm really not sure what bug crawled into your bonnet lately but you gotta ease off. You're slipping back into all those behaviors you apologized for and said wouldn't be happening again just five months ago.

Spirit doesn't have some super special spy feeding us info from Shadow web. Webs, just like clans and any other form of communication, aren't private and shouldn't be assumed to be private. Especially a web or clan that an entire tether shares.

Making baseless accusations makes you look pretty dumb.

Illikaal

Araseth said:

Lol.

I'm gonna try and give you some serious advice. This is the opportunity for you to say "You know what, you're right and I was trippin." and apologize and move on. Doing anything but likely won't be very helpful with how you are already perceived in the community because of this particular brand of behavior you seem to frequently exhibit. It's okay to admit you made a mistake, but doubling down after you've been proven wrong really just isn't a good look.

Toz

@Sryaen the reflection in the glasses alone makes that not, in fact, a shit post. That's top notch good job.