Crafting issues, ideas, and discussion.

Aishia

MAYBE WE JUST NEED MORE DISTINCTIVE AETOLIAN GOATS.

Areka

You know, part of me is here wanting to post an apology if wanting to have lines drawn (and doing our best to navigate around some of the rules which can be vague and require some interpretation) makes crafting miserable because things are too tight. But you know what?

I think it's really unfair and lame for the forum crusade to start up demanding to be heard about their concerns and wants in hopes to make things fun for everyone, then when the other side (you know, those other people who also enjoy crafting and spend -a lot of time involved with it-) speak their piece, we're essentially told we're invalid, dismissed as e-villains crushing the spirits of the peons, or as trite.

We are called out in a pretty passive/aggressive manner and it makes it clear that for all of the complaints that we make crafting our way or the highway, that is now being turned into 'OUR crafting not yours' rather than an actual discussion of finding a middle ground of where do we move lines (because yes, lines are needed, we need constraints and boundaries in order to gauge things in a process like this. There needs to be a checklist.)

So the question: Where would YOU suggest drawing the lines?

Solaria

So, guys, rather than arguing a moot point that neither side gets why the other is arguing - let's argue improvements. Make it a guide-like system out of all of it. Pay volunteers. If they screw up and are over-zealous, boot them. Have a very strict approval process for those who become able to approve/reject designs (test people on grammar, general design, etc - or only approve people who are consistent designers). Update and re-clarify HELP DESIGNGUIDELINE. That's about it for what we really could use, I think.

Now, as far as the log thing, I'm sure the log might already exist on the admin-side of things. There is little reason why crafters should be able to see it. All that would do is cause arguments between people that would go something like this:

OMG So and so is rejecting EVERYTHING for petty reasons. I'm going to pester them in OOC tells to tell them how that makes me feel!

That sort of thing can become way too easily confrontational, just like some of these posts have gotten, so I'll just say that is a bad idea. And that's all for my two cents.

Mariena

I have read this whole thread. I agree with Solaria about shifting this thread's focus towards positive changes (and I also think that was the original intent. To offer up ideas that allow EVERYONE to have fun).

Base guidelines across the board, that are unchangeable are and have always been: 1. Spelling. 2. Grammar 3. No magical items 4. Not modern (ie zippered pants). 5. In the theme of Aetolia

Now, number 4 and 5 has ALSO always been disputed, and that is where the crux of the rest of the argument lies. Because Aetolia is a breathing entity, with players of various ages, regions, and knowledge, what makes it 'not modern and in theme with Aetolia' also changes.

Aetolia is now discovering Albedos, which has some serious advancements in technology. No one bats an eyelash when cogs came into play as a totally relevant design aesthetic, but why would Aetolia as a continent embrace the strange metal creations so easily? My point is, Aetolia is growing. Those who play are growing. So 4 and 5 are ALWAYS going to be a pain in the ass to consider.

They need a set, unchangeable guideline adhered to them, so as to make everyone's lives easier. For example! "Aetolia's timeline is equivalent to 'blank time AD'. If you can find what you want to make in this time line or before this time, it is plausible it can be made in Aetolia as well."

Another point I want to make is this though. WE get so fussy, as crafters, on having everything perfect.. but our crafts won't be bought if they're terrible. It's supply and demand. No one wants shitty designs. Those designs that no one likes will be used less, will be sold less, and will get weeded out through the natural selection process.

Solaria

I have to say, and this is a thought I had while on my way to work, maybe we should start creating Aetolian versions of certain OOC items. Like with the cashmere, why not have a goat up in the Tarea that has it? So, tarean sweater could cover it as being cashmere. I think that'd be pretty awesome, personally. Add some more flare to our items and just general flare.

EDIT: And note, this could have been stated..think it was somewhat, but eh..I can't remember. I'd totally be game on creating a comparison list we could see if admin would create for crafting.

Rashar

Thing is, @areka, that 'your way' you mentioned doesn't hurt you a bit. It honestly just doesn't have any effect on your gameplay. You wouldn't even know that cashmere scarf existed except for approving it. Unless someone came straight to you and made it a point to like.. emote with it.

Whereas the other side of the coin is.. The 'your way' that people here are mentioning stifles their writing, forces them to find workarounds for things that only a handful of people care about (and will only be seen by an even smaller handful), and makes us end up with 'a really soft, high quality scarf' or 'a really well forged longsword with wavy lines in it' or whatever.

And I'm sorry, but as has already been mentioned - Aetolian versions are cool, I guess? But how does the noob or the casual player know that Salurian wool is the cashmere equivalent, or Arbothian steel. The point is to rapidly present a visual. Using English, Aetolia's official language. Meh. As someone said to me in game last night while discussing this: You want that level of immersion, play a tabletop.

Mariena is right. The point was to find ways to improve and work together as a community to make crafting funner and easier. Instead, lines have been drawn and the same points are being defended or argued again and again. I'm guilty too. It definitely wasn't intended as a crusade or anything of the sort.

(I wish I could close my own thread before the admin have to do it.)

Amberlea

I think that there are a lot of good points brought up by the various posters in this discussion, and I think the best solution is going to lie somewhere in the middle.

The importance of retaining immersion is notable, though I feel some of the examples given are too harsh and others too soft.

• Damascus steel is a good example of something that can easily be redone and work pretty much as well.
  
• Katana is one that I, personally, feel should be okay. The limitations of short descriptions make it too cumbersome to describe something in the fashion of a katana and still have room for an actually personalized design. I think everyone can agree that if we had to kill sandwiches, change their id's to 'Food item' and make their short descriptions 'two pieces of bread with some stuff in the middle' it would be too ridiculously cumbersome.
  
• Cashmere is a fair border example. Does 'extremely soft wool' invoke the same feelings as the word cashmere? For some, yes, but others no. When RPing doing a friend's hair I gave her a Delosian braid because when I started to type out French braid I felt like that could be a problem. Do I have the same hangup when I see the word cashmere? I, personally, do not, but it's not up to me (THANKFULLY)
  

I believe that rejections without comment should not be allowed. If you feel that something isn't right it needs to be explicitly stated so that the designer knows what the issue is. Does this make working the queue a little more work? Perhaps, but doing an extra 30 seconds of work now can save a lot of hassle later. The more times a design has to pass through the queue before it is finally approved equals more designs that are going to get viewed before your own stuff gets looked at. So, if for no other reason, help other people because it benefits you in a roundabout way.

Paying a credit for x number of approvals would help speed things along and encourage reviewers to work harder with designers to actually fix the issues with their designs. This would, of course, require a bit more oversight from the admin and anything that involves giving away cr is going to need approval from corporate. Worth it to the admin? Maybe. Hopefully it is at least considered an option if there is much of a change to the system.

It may be a decent idea to give designers an option to request immortal review of a design after a certain number of rejections (a decent amount, so the admin aren't getting billions of these). This would obviously come with the understanding that it is going to take longer to get done because the admin are busy people, but could alleviate some issues where people feel that their designs are being rejected erroneously or frivolously. If the admin kicks it back agreeing with the previous reviewers then it might be time to cave in. Goldschlager is a real liquor with real gold (precious metal) flakes in it. I'm not sure why a design would imitate it in game but not want to use gold, unless it is purely for fiscal reasons. Moirean's example about the holy water could be an example of just such an edge case where an immortal's weigh-in could be beneficial. While I'll admit it's unfair for me to speculate the thoughts and intentions of the reviewers, there exists the possibility that they disliked the lack of real gold as an underhanded hack-around and were thus disinclined to push it through. Not meaning to pick on anyone, just using that case as a potential example.

Solaria

Well, it wouldn't be hard, going back to what Rashar was saying. We already have references for where things are for sale. So, why not have a file - maybe even just for crafters - that lists a specific crafting word and the Aetolian equivalent. It wouldn't be that hard, especially if we are working on making them. It'd be a hand-in-hand process. And if someone really wants to know what the material is like, they can look into it. If you describe it right, even without the Aetolian equivalent, you can get a point across very easily.

And yes, English is the official language - but it is also called Aetolian in the game. It's not called English. So, it is understood by all of us OOCly as being English but ICly it is still Aetolian. And there are so many variations of English, who is to say which specific set of English is English for Aetolian? That is why, as Mariena pointed out, it has to be in the theme of Aetolia. Some of the words mentioned, although in the English language, are derived from other languages. And some? Some are moderately modern words.

I guess I just see things as being a slippery slope. You don't want people to be able to speak about stuff that isn't in Aetolia, then you can't craft about stuff that isn't in Aetolia. There has to be a balance, and this is where the admin have to take care of things and set guidelines - which they have done. They've made it clear time and time again to not use those words, not just for the reason that other crafters don't want it, but because they don't want to see it either.

So, in closing, we just need - as Mariena said - a clear guideline. If we have a good help file with clear guidelines for everyone to read and always have to adhere to, there would be far less wiggle room. Language is always still going to be subjective, but this may stop it from being as much.

Rashar

I don't think the issue is the crafter finding the alternative in a helpfile, but what your common reader is going to get in that mental snapshot as they read the 7 word appearance line. Goes back to what @sibatti said.


Hey guys! Did you know?!

(There are problems with crafting other than the use of real world names in items. Go back a page to find out what!)

Konnorn

The problem with making variations up on your own, like a Delosian braid (french braid) or Arbothian steel (damascus steel) and other things like that, is that people might -still- not get it, because they might refer to a village in the game to a completely different region. I personally set my own regions to ingame places when making up names.

Some might see Aerie as a village in the Himalayas, some as the Swiss alps and so on. Arbothia could be french or the English countryside. Mannaseh? An african swamp or a bayou in Mississippi.

If references like that is going to work, we need someone higher up who actually connects a rl region/country/city to all the ing places. Personally though, I would love it, just because I do it myself. <.< I actually made a list of all aetolian places on 'areas' and put rl references on about 50-75% of them. Sadly, it was on my old computer, but I've been thinking about doing it again.

Solaria

Oh, I saw your original suggestions. Already commented on the log. And if we do some sort of credit-reward-system, there is no need for the other suggestions. In general, I think that adding extra rejections would lengthen the process, and some people would just vote to reject it regardless if they see it is already rejected. If it gets 2 rejections, and 3 approvals, that's 5 people it has to go through and it still could have needed the changes the other 2 saw. It'd take some weird planning to figure out how that would work right.

-deleting this paragraph, though I do think the weight thing is extremely silly. Another note is further down-

Now, as far as the helpfile, make a public version. We probably should have some of those anyways, especially with gems, since we have a ton that people may not know by first glance at them. It is not that hard to work it out for those who really want to know what an item is made of.

Edit: And what Konnorn said is what I think could make it so much simpler for figuring out regions for us. That'd be bloody fantastic to get a comparison, honestly.

Rashar

Psst. Some people already have more weight. It's a thing that already exists.

Amberlea

Rashar said:

Psst. Some people already have more weight. It's a thing that already exists.

I think she is implying that they should shed a few pounds.

Solaria

Rashar said:

Psst. Some people already have more weight. It's a thing that already exists.

</p>

I've never seen that. Who actually has more weight? O.o

Rashar

I'd give you a hint, but it'd be taken as a personal attack.

Solaria

Rashar said:

I'd give you a hint, but it'd be taken as a personal attack.

I KNOW I AM FAT. Big meanie..

Rashar

Rashar

I need to add an extra to show you how sad face I am.

Solaria

I found out about the one thing you were talking about Rashar, and probably could use more people if it's a thing. But admin are still very strict on who the approve for it, I'm sure, so I'll just stick to hoping that we can get a credit-reward-based system instead. Be easier. >.>

Jensen

I really just want scotch and bourbon since I know they exist both irl and in game. Figured I'd add another moot point to the thread before its closure.

Lim

Oh I just wanted to add that I quite like the babelfish idea of Aetolian being another language and we're just reading it in our own terms (English).

Rashar

You can't make scotch? I haven't tried, I just figured since they sell it at shops already it was on the list of acceptable immersion breakers.

I've not seen bourbon, though.

Areka

Scotch and Bourbon have been given the OK as they already exist in NPC shops, from last time it came up and I got verification from Becue.

Jensen

yay! I just remembered people being like "just because it exists doesn't mean I'm allowing you to break immersion!" and I'm like

Rashar

Jensen just made me laugh loud enough to wake up my son.

Thanks bro. 19 months of fury -and- grumpy.

Solaria

Rashar said:

Jensen just made me laugh loud enough to wake up my son.

Thanks bro. 19 months of fury -and- grumpy.

You deserve it, sir.

Elwyn

I think I have played the game too long because all of the work around for the things mention make me think of RL things. Soft wool, oh cashmere, man I love cashmere. Anyway, I use to craft quite a bit in the day but nowadays, I usually only craft things for myself or something I want to give someone. I've had a few breakdowns with rejections because someone didn't like the way it looked or whatever. I get the grammar stuff because I'm still bad at it. Honestly, playing this game has made my grammar better because I didn't really get taught it in school.

I'd be okay with people explaining their rejections a bit more if rejections where cleared upon paying to use the design. I don't know about all of you but I have a few designs that have so many rejections (for stupid stuff usually) that it is longer than the actual design, so I have scroll up and find if I add more than the base of the design just to craft it! Or another way, if coding it to clear is too hard, is to put all the ingredients and commodities at the very bottom of the design, this way those of us with a lot of rejections will at least know what we need to make whatever it is.

Now, I only ever reject something if I know for sure it is wrong. I don't go through the queue often just because I will probably miss things. Long descriptions in the approval process, scare me, so if I am looking through it to approve, I look for small examines.

Sibatti

Lim said:

Oh I just wanted to add that I quite like the babelfish idea of Aetolian being another language and we're just reading it in our own terms (English).

This is the essence of what I was trying to say and it deserves repeating.

Mariena

I read up there somewhere that newbies would still be confused, even if we had a help file that did comparisons. To that I say... Why not add it in to the Guide rotation? 'Confused what cashmere would be? Wondering what a Delosian braid actually looks like? Look no further than HELP COMPARE for a general idea of regional wares in Aetolia!' Newbies would start out knowing that they have the ability to look this up, and crafters get the guidelines or at least a set list of 'A=B' that would stop a lot of bickering. After a while, everyone would know that Vashnarian wool is freaking soft.

Eleanor

Rashar said:

I think it says something that the three people defending the attitude/atmosphere so vehemently are three of the four people that make crafting so miserable for everyone else. You also happen to own shops (which most crafters do not), make their items for wholesale (which most crafters do not), and have made it their 'niche' to dominate the crafting empire. And this isn't an attack by any means, so please don't take it that way. (I know you will.)

Alright, this is one of those "No offense, but..." posts that is actually offensive- so yes, those who are being attacked are going to take it as an attack. Very perceptive of you! I do understand that that was on the last page, but you know what, I am not going to just take slander lying down. Because that's what it is. Slander. Am I mad? Yeah, because this wasn't called for.

First of all, you say that like I make bogus rejections (hello I haven't rejected a design in approximately four RL months) or attack people for their choices (nope, I state rules when they're in question), or maybe you think I'm not encouraging enough (despite offering alternatives for writing and often proofing stuff for people when they ask). I am not out to ruin people's day. I am out to have everyone following the rules as the rules have been stated, because why do we even have rules if we're just going to ignore/be oblivious to them?

I'd also like to know how owning shops is relevant to what words the administration have said it's okay to use. And furthermore, where you're getting the idea that I'm 'making it my niche' to dominate anything or sell things wholesale, for that matter. I just craft a lot because I like to craft a lot. Dominating implies that I put pressure on other people, which is pretty bogus. Unless stating admin ruling is what we're calling dominating, I guess.

Rashar said:

Whereas the other side of the coin is.. The 'your way' that people here are mentioning stifles their writing, forces them to find workarounds for things that only a handful of people care about

Have we missed the part where the line that we super evil corporate fun-hating crafters are espousing are the administrative decision on the matter?



And in regard to workarounds, here's some personal opinion. I think it makes aetolia richer and more engaging if people -do- put in that effort. If you read a thing and go 'what's an arbothian braid, oh I see, that's a french braid, that's cool, because it's been linked to a place that's actually in aet, neato' then that's a really fantastic thing which I find very rewarding to discover- there's a positive gameplay result to finding a creative way, too. And if your audience can't visualise your descriptive writing in a game that's about descriptive writing without you using a quick shorthand... is that really the fault of the game?