Crafting issues, ideas, and discussion.

RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
RP at an all time low. Boredom at an all time high. Owning a shop has led to interacting more with the Crafters, frustrations of my own as well as frustrations and complaints and simple comments I've heard others make.

I think it's pretty clear that there are flaws in the system, although I'm not sure if most of them are fixable. But, I had some ideas, and am interested enough that I figured I'd post this and see if we could get a friendly and not-closed discussion. Maybe. Anyway, my ideas:

1) Increase the number of people with double-weight approval. I don't know how hard it is for Becue to check into things, but it seems like there are quite a few quality writers out there that are just as capable of wielding that sort of weight as the current ones. Maybe looking through people's designs themselves for quality writing, some sort of invitation/application system, etc.

2) A crafting log, visible to everyone with approval authority or in the clan or whatever is decided. I am for transparency, but you might opt out of revealing the name of the rejecting party. Seems like a handy way to keep people honest and for any admin/god with an extra few minutes to do a quick log check, scan comments, and see if people are being ridiculous. Example:

2014/10/01 04:28:51 - Design 1234 was rejected [by Rashar] for: Unfortunately, your boots cannot have magical dragon wings that flap and carry the wearer through the air.
2014/10/01 04:28:51 - Design 1235 was rejected [By Rashar] for: No way your dress is beautiful, you wrote that it was made out of puke green velvet and river rocks and we all know those are ugly. Ugly ugly ugly.

3) Make it so rejections require at least two, maybe three votes. If it takes three to approve, why should it take only one person with an opinion to reject something? If it is a valid grammatical or spelling error and the crafter is not on to fix it, it still shouldn't sit in the queue for -that- long. Worried? Pay people a credit or an iron coin for every xx approvals or rejections.

This will not go over well with some of you, and I'll ask you to stop and think about why. If it is because you want to continue wielding a vicegrip on crafting? Maybe you're wrong.

I'll finish with what I always say on the clan: I think we need to just chill, sometimes. Lighten up and -relax-. I get it. For a very small handful of you crafting is your 'thing' and you don't like it that someone else might get away with something that you've been rejected for or told no, or that you personally disagree with.

Maybe it bothers you to see cashmere, because no -way- Aetolia has animals that produce that specific type of wool. Maybe it bothers you because, after looking it up and sifting through three webpages, you realized that ceylon ebony is named after a location in the 'real world' and that just kills your immersion. Maybe you haven't actually mastered English and that pesky hyphen like you thought you had. Maybe you don't think something made with diamonds should be allowed to be described as 'crude', or maybe you're certain that the "they" refers to the boots and not the pants because it wasn't properly linked to a prepositional phrase.

Whatever the maybe may be.. sometimes I think we forget that we're talking about regular people playing a game and making some items for fun. With a skill they spent money or a significant amount of time on. I could argue that more people crafting would mean more crafting artifacts sold would mean more money for IRE, but really? I don't give a unicorns. The bottom line is, it should be fun for more than ten people.



  • GwenithGwenith Member Posts: 487 ✭✭✭✭
    First of all, I'm annoyed with you @Rasher. I put tonight side for RP with you and you're off posting ideas instead of bending to my flighty whims. Second of all, more shame for you again for reason 1.

  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosomsMember Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Some of this is just needing more clarity in the rules (and organization of the rules because they are all over the place), as well as some reassessment.

    More people with two-weight would certainly help move things along more.

    The issue with revealing names is that unless it's an admin-supported roster of approvers/rejectors, we've a history of people becoming -incredibly nasty- when they find out who rejected their pieces and taking things to extremes when it comes to harassment, both publicly and privately, which has yet to be handled well. Why I qualify this with admin-support is because sometimes things need to be backed up/have a fallback/more monitoring, and we tend to have an inconsistent Becue presence (as well as a habit of tightening the bolts on everyone rather than addressing individual problem sources).

    Some of it is also needing to have the same flexibility you are asking for. What does it cost you to say 'extremely soft wool' versus cashmere? Or us finding an Aetolian equivalent that could further flesh out the game world? I feel like more compromises could be found if both ends would be willing to find a middle ground that both retains some immersion in Aetolia as well as communicates more concisely what you're after. Most of the time this dialogue cuts off at "It's too close to a modern RL place." and "I want what I want we have other references in an inconsistent world built by shifting teams of volunteers therefore any other thresholds should be negligible."

    Also needing clarity is the issue of where do you draw the line between stylistic writing and creative license versus simply being incorrect, as (currently how things are) we have a wide range of people trying to help with the queues, and an equally wide range of comfort with English, from standard proficiency that is enough to gauge most things, to really understanding the ins and outs of style.

  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker VirginiaMember Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Want to buy, please, Rashar. I've rejected a few people, but usually when I do it's because something big is missing out of additional ingredients, there's some kind of horrible typo/spelling, or something is just on the wrong design. Rarely, rarely had someone get nasty with me, especially after I explain what the problem is all chill-like and stuff.

    If you have a lot of people getting nasty with you, maybe you're just an unicorns.
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    -Benjamin Franklin
  • ReuxReux Member Posts: 251 ✭✭✭
    Rashar got nasty with me and I just wiped my hands of the entire thing. Nothing done, nothing gained, nothing changed.
    I mean, you know, an amount.

  • GwenithGwenith Member Posts: 487 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2014
    Out of curiosity how many design rejections come back with canonical rejections (mention of places or things that don't exists in Aetolia) and also have suggestions in the comments?

    i.e. Instead of "Rejected because cashmere isn't a thing in Aetolia", "Rejected because cashmere isn't a thing in Aetolia. You could try soft wool, or Shamotian wool, or Sheepogriff wool" instead.

  • RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not sure. I don't tend to write like that, and haven't had anything rejected for it. I was just using some examples I've seen either debated, rejected in other designs, or mentioned in passing.
  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker VirginiaMember Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Gwenith - I've had, and seen, several things like that. YOU CAN'T HAVE DAMASCUS STEEL BECAUSE DAMASCUS IS A PLACE IN THE REAL WORLD.'s like unicorns stfu and gimmie my unicorns pretty steel, unicorns.
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    -Benjamin Franklin
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I personally think it's way too nitpicky. Yes, champagne technically comes from a certain region in France - but the layman doesn't make that distinction, and most of us use champagne to describe sparkling wine. Cashmere comes from the underhair of a very specific sub-species of goat in extremely cold regions, but nearly everyone just associates that with "really soft, finely woven wool" rather than that biology lesson - including the people herding them, by the way. I combed out cashmere hairs from the goats when I was living in Mongolia, and, trust me, they just call them goats. Annoying, evil, bleating, bratty goats. Who headbutt your shins to say hi. Grrrrr. Sorry. I think I've gone off topic. Racking fracking varmints.

    In any case, having to cut out everything that is sourced from a RL place/thing is really tiring, nitpicky, and exhausting, since the nature of language is such that it draws in specific things like this, from real places/things/people/etc, until they are used so much that they become eponyms. Silhouette, for example, derives from the name of a French politician. Sandwich from a British earl. Arachnid comes from Greek mythology. Where do we draw the line? It's silly.
  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,531 ✭✭✭✭✭

    (Make crafting less nitpicky plz)
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in AtticaMember Posts: 796 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2014
    Kiiiind of missing the point there. The reason why all the regional names like cashmere, Damascus steel, or Earl Grey tea has to do with the idea that those things are tied to or closely associated with places or people - things that DON'T exist in Aetolia, so the names for those things don't make much sense. Every definition of cashmere I've found explicitly describes it as soft wool from goats in the KASHMIR region. Earl Grey tea? It's a specific flavor of tea (bergamot), named after a person. Damascus steel is a term for folded steel with a wavy pattern, so why not just call it folded steel and describe the pattern?

    Why is silhouette, or sandwich, or arachnid okay? Their definitions aren't necessarily region-locked, and are terms that, y'know, don't reference a RL place in the actual term.

    Seriously. Everything that you guys are complaining about has an easy workaround. The names themselves are just shorthand for their characteristics. Is it really that hard to use the workarounds and then just describe the qualities? And is it REALLY that much of an inconvenience that you can't wrack your creative brain and find workarounds?

    Aetolia has a ton of places based on RL cultures, so freaking use what's there in-game and try to expand on it. There are some crafting restrictions that have spawned some really interesting Aetolian spin-offs. Milkshake --> icemilk, for example. Want to make a Boston Cream Pie? You can, but why not name it after an Aetolian analogue? Want to make a katana? You can and even describe it to look like one, even if you can't call it a katana.
  • RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the point, @phoenecia, is that, sure. Each of those might have an easy workaround, but when you've got to find a workaround for everything you want to do, eh. It becomes not fun. And no, 'I don't have any problem with them' isn't really that great of an answer. One, you've been doing nothing but crafting for years. Two, three, and four.. eh. I'll leave it at one.

    And really, at least from my end, like I said - those were just examples I used. I don't usually reference things like that, and I almost exclusively craft for personal RP rather than selling at a shop (exception being forging). I do not, personally, get very many things rejected.

    I think it's more the atmosphere in general, where a very very few people are very very grr about things that are probably just -not- that bad. I sometimes wonder if we all started messaging Becue with every single issue we had, things might get changed.

    Really, I'd just like to see Crafting more relaxed and fun for people. As much as I don't mind putting a design in for someone, when most of them time people ask me to and then say, "I don't bother with crafting because it's miserable to deal with them," it just makes me wonder if we can't fix it as a community.

  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kashmir is in India. China and Mongolia produce the most/the best cashmere these days. This is an exactly perfect example of why these rejections based on eponyms are so dumb.
  • GwenithGwenith Member Posts: 487 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2014
    @Ishin : I think you missed my point. I'll try and re-iterate since I've spotted a phrase I like.

    How often do rejection comments also offer work-arounds for the players? Are there any crafter accepter/rejecter people who help the rejected player fix their design? Using your example : "You can't have Damascus steel due to it being a place name. You could try to River steel, Arborthian steel, mottled steel..." and so on. Just wondering how many people who reject a thing do that, or how many people who have had things rejected receive help from the rejector.

    Is there a character limit in what can be written for a comment? I should probably be a crafter/understand crafting process more before I go more indepth.

    On the flip-side of the coin I've seen a couple of designs with spelling and grammar mistakes in the game that I know have been accepted by the crafters in recent times. Is it the crafter is getting their friends to tick it off as favours or people not looking at it properly because it was made by a specific person?

  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Stuff slips through. Bear in mind, we are NOT paid for approving/rejecting, like other IREs are. I suspect if we were, there would be a better environment and quicker turn-around time. Right now, it's more of a power/altruism/bored/quid-pro-quo thing, versus a job we're doing (and being held accountable to) to earn credits.
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in AtticaMember Posts: 796 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2014
    Seriously, is it really going to kill you to not use cashmere as a term? Or totally destroy your design if you don't have the term in it? Just going to point out that other crafters deal with that sort of thing (being denied use of an iconic noun, like macarons, for example) quite well.

    The thing about crafting is that it's pretty much like writing. It takes time, it takes experience, and it takes a lot of rejection. When you start crafting, you're probably going to get a few rejections. Or a lot. And there's a lot of rules, guidelines, and rulings that are scattered all over the place or hard to find, which probably contributes to a lot of dumb design rejections. It'd probably help a lot if all the rules and guidelines for crafting were concentrated in one place and made more concise because as it is, it's...kind of messy and really dense.

    @Gwenith: I try to do that when I reject stuff, but honestly? That sort of thing doesn't come up all that often. Like, if someone submits a katana, I'll reject it saying that while they can describe it as a katana, they can't explicitly call it a katana, and maybe offer suggestions. Not everyone who rejects designs will do that, though. And even then, some people don't take rejection well and will throw tantrums when their designs aren't approved because they insist on certain terminology when there are guidelines that say 'no, you can't do that'.

    EDIT: Also want to note that standards for what is and isn't acceptable for designs keeps changing over time, so some things that were approved before may not be acceptable to make now (like ice furniture). Which means 'but this was made before, I've seen it around' isn't really an acceptable excuse to try and shove certain things into the queue when a more recent crafting ruling says otherwise.
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosomsMember Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I try to offer alternatives/solutions to things in my rejections, in regards to Gwenith's question (be they link references, phrased alternatives, how to fix sentences the easiest way, suggestions for commodities that might be more feasible to what the vision is, etc).

    In regards to things like cashmere, a lot of that comes down to the cultural divide I suppose, of show vs. tell and make things Aetolian vs. the easiest (crutch) to get from A to B. I personally prefer trying to tie things into Aetolia and fleshing out our IC game more, and using more descriptive language and not less. Damascus steel actually came up ages ago when Edhain came back, he and I discussed it and he switched his designs to crucible steel and they're all lovely. While I recognize this is the minority standard, I do think that it is worth noting that this argument goes both ways: why is my preference disposable in regards to your want for fun and ease, just as much as you feel yours is to me?

    Why does it have to be a floodgate of non-integrated references rather than finding a middle path so that the game environment can be preserved and things can become a bit looser? or Though I admit that I am grumpy that there are lehenga and choli rather than just midriff/cropped shirts and long skirts of matching patterning, or hakama trousers rather than skirted or wide-leg, pleated pants.

    Other things are also just the way the crafting rules are right now and people trying to enforce them as they are written, as such, those could really use clarifying, re-writing, streamlining, and reorganizing to be more concise, ordered, and to the point.
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Flip that around - is it really going to kill your gaming experience to have something described as cashmere, versus having something made overly verbose to try to describe the simple concept? I'm using cashmere as an example, but I, personally, prefer to easily "get" what something is, versus having it be insanely precise in nitpicking accuracy, especially if that requires things to be excessively verbose and awkwardly described. That's from a buyer/player standpoint. From a crafter standpoint, yes, it DOES kill the game to repeatedly have to rewrite stuff. I rarely craft anymore because stuff is so tedious and tiring.
  • RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have to agree with Moirean here.

    I honestly prefer to read an item description that is not thirty seven lines long (I know, I know). I want to be able to quickly and easily look at it and visualize what it is. The same goes for descriptions. I'm sorry, but if your description is a page long I'm going to, maybe, skim over it and find a few key aspects. And probably miss the fact that you have dragon wings and only one eye.

    Everyone's immersion is different, man. I can't -stand- seeing people say 'heya' or 'yo' ICly, or 'Gratz' over the city channel. That kills my immersion. Should we make it illegal / inappropriate? Because it's pretty widespread. I am sorry that you can't see Cashmere and think of anything but that it's named after a place in India. But you know what? You don't -have- to go to xxx shop and buy xxx item, or look at the scarf xxx is wearing.

    This is not work. These are not essays. It shouldn't take, as you said, a bunch of time and experience and rejection to make your character a scarf. I think this attitude, cashmere wool coming from goats or rats or damn wombats aside, is the issue.
  • RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think it says something that the three people defending the attitude/atmosphere so vehemently are three of the four people that make crafting so miserable for everyone else. You also happen to own shops (which most crafters do not), make their items for wholesale (which most crafters do not), and have made it their 'niche' to dominate the crafting empire. And this isn't an attack by any means, so please don't take it that way. (I know you will.)

    Most people just want to make things for stuff, and stuff for things. The very great majority of the things made with crafting skills are only seen by more than one or two people because of having to read it to approve.

    I also hate that this has somehow turned from ideas on how to improve crafting as a whole (to include, believe it or not, things other than the use of cashmere wool) to an argument on immersion. Immersion killing items, if you even want to bring them up, are a sliver of the problems people have with crafting. They just happen to be an easily identified point to argue over.
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in AtticaMember Posts: 796 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rashar said:

    I think it says something that the three people defending the attitude/atmosphere so vehemently are three of the four people that make crafting so miserable for everyone else. You also happen to own shops (which most crafters do not), make their items for wholesale (which most crafters do not), and have made it their 'niche' to dominate the crafting empire. And this isn't an attack by any means, so please don't take it that way. (I know you will.)

    You say it's not an attack, and yet here you are accusing us of making crafting miserable. You forget that there's more than three or four people rejecting or approving stuff, and I barely touch the crafting queue anymore.
  • RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I want @sibatti to write four more posts with no content so I can agree more.
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here, just because I think there's evidence needed of how freaking dumb crafting can be:

    Short: holywater
    holy water
    Thick and viscous, this drink is ominously clear. Suspended flecks of a rich golden hue float in the beverage, and the drink sparkles as it catches the light.
    Strong fumes of alcohol waft off this beverage.
    The stinging taste of alcohol burns your tongue.
    You from as a heady burn of the potent beverage trickles down your throat. Several drops of the drink slosh out of the container, suspended golden-hued flecks swirling and liquid glittering in ambient light.
    You the last drops from and swallow heavily, the heady rush of alcohol making your head swim.
    Comments from the Trade Guild:
    2013/05/03 18:09: An herb does not sparkle or glitter, regardless of the lighting. If you want glittering things, add something that the herb could be coated in. Gold, diamond dust, what have you.
    2013/05/03 18:14: As per crafting rules, unless you change the reason for rejection or plead your case via comments, you're not supposed to just throw it back in. Message Becue, Clexx, or Tok if you think the rejection was invalid.
    2013/05/03 19:29: Pretty sure you require something for the booze? Further, there are still suspended flecks and so on--you are correct that liquid can sparkle in light, but it does not sparkle in flecks. Either add gold or something shiny or change it.
    2013/05/03 19:32: It ALSO says that there are suspended flecks of a golden hue--there needs to be something in the design for that. Further, it says gold-flecked, in the flavour. You cannot have your cake and eat it too, you either fix it, change it, or you wait for Becue to overrule and say it's fine. Do NOT keep re-submitting without change.
    2013/05/03 19:38: reddish-brown is not gold
    2013/05/03 20:47: I'm going to have to side with the previous rejections. In my mind, yellow and golden hued flecks aren't the same. A simple change of the word 'golden' to 'yellow' would fix the last few issues that the rejections seem to have in common. Or add gold and you can keep your specific golden flakes that way.
    2013/05/04 01:30: Adding saffron still does not fix the fact that *yellow* and *golden* aren't the same color. Either add gold or change your wording. Period. Please.
    Comments from the Creator:
    2013/05/03 18:15: I changed the design. The liquid is sparkling. Liquid sparkles in light.
    2013/05/03 19:30: the liquid is what is sparkling. The design says that: "drink sparkles" "liquid glittering"
    2013/05/03 19:36: I have been changing it every single time I resubmit. I made the liquid what is sparkling. The specks are golden in color. Echinacea is a reddish-brown root, which is what makes the specks.
    2013/05/03 19:47: echinacea is described as "generally brown" if you examine it. It is also described as a root. Roots become darker as they age - a young echinacea root would have a lighter color, such as light brown or yellow. ie, golden
    2013/05/04 01:28: there. Saffron added. Yellow everywhere
    2013/05/04 01:33: golden is a color. That doesn't mean it has gold in it. Since when have we needed gold to describe something as golden? This is silly. I've changed the design over and over and it's still being rejected for no reason at all
  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker VirginiaMember Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    One of the things for me is that like. If I probe this dirk, and it says, Arbothian steel. I'm going to be like, wtf. What does this look like. If it says damascus steel...I know -exactly- what it looks like and stuff. Cashmere isn't going to ruin your day. Neither is Damascus Steel.
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    -Benjamin Franklin
  • KonnornKonnorn Member Posts: 300 ✭✭✭✭
    I was thinking about getting a crafter license again. I Think I'll reconsider that..


  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @konnorn - get it. Even with the frustrations, it's a fun thing to be able to make stuff that influences the game world. At my interview at SOE earlier this week, they asked me why I played MUDs so much, and I cited the crafting system. It's fun, when it works, incredibly fun. Right now, I don't think it works as well as it could, but we're all being hyperbolic and arguing points - at the base level, it works and it's exciting. Get a tradeskill. You'll love it.
  • RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As much as it frustrates me, I'd say the same as @moirean.

    The few times it has made me want to pull my hair out while simultaneously headbutting a charging rhinoceros and leap into the maw of a kraken aren't worth not having the ability to just make an item and have it be yours. I have tailoring, woodcarving, forging, jewelcrafting, brewing, and furniture - and some of them I haven't even made anything with yet. But, if I want to? I will.
  • AlissandraAlissandra Member Posts: 130 ✭✭✭
    Ishin said:I 
    One of the things for me is that like. If I probe this dirk, and it says, Arbothian steel. I'm going to be like, wtf. What does this look like. If it says damascus steel...I know -exactly- what it looks like and stuff. Cashmere isn't going to ruin your day. Neither is Damascus Steel.
    The entire time reading this thread, this was all I could think of. Things like 'a magnificent really soft wool sweater' does not sound the same as 'a magnificent cashmere sweater'. Plus, now I have to spend part in my description description focusing on the really soft will instead of what makes my sweater so magnificent. I tend to agree with the point that these adjectives convey a specific idea efficiently and correctly. 

    Let's say I want to make a whiskey. I'd like it to be a corn whiskey. Oh unicorns, bourbon is a county in Kentucky and a street New Orleans. I guess I will abandon my desire for a corn based whiskey and drink scotch instead. Unicorns again, there is no Scotland in Aetolia for scotch to be made. As much fun as it is to drink liquid steel, maybe I want the sense of Southern sophistication from having a glass of bourbon in my hand, or if I had a dwarf I don't want to be a snowflake and do something special, I want to drink scotch! (I have this preconcieved notion that all dwarves drink scotch...) So instead, I either have to painstakingly describe the flavor and color and smell of my whiskey to make it just right and HOPE people read and get it, or drink some make believe thing and only worry about getting really drunk. I am going to describe my drink anyways, why deny me something that doesn't translate into Aetolia very well.

    I don't know what Duiran whiskey is, not that I thought they even drank whiskey. I understand not allowing Irish whiskey, or even Damascus Steel (sorry @Ishin‌, no Damascus Steel for you!) since it explicitly has the name of a place in it, I get that. But hey, mastiffs refer to a large molosser dog, which everyone knows derives is name from Molossia in ancient Epirus. Those things are an infestation in Spinesreach, I blame @Moirean‌ for letting that design get approved. 
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