New ideas for Order Wars

Moirean

@areka - Like I've said multiple times, I agree that there are problems with the system and that it could be improved. Earlier in the thread, I posted this:

Moirean said:

Some constructive suggestions:

Improve ways that people can help out:

- Have shrine updates be baked into the system, so someone finishing a defile can see a tangible result right there over OT. A small change, but it helps illustrate that you did something to help your order out and makes it easier for people to see progress.

- Have people in the order either be directly stated in enemy order logs, or have people opt-in via HOLYWAR JOIN, so it's clear who is participating and who is not. There's a lot of frustrating confusion, ninjaing and collateral damage due to not explicitly knowing who is open game.

- Let orders form alliances. I don't think Iosyne's order would mind *at all* fighting 2-3 orders at once. We just want to fight, and if you guys can band together to make it more even, that sounds fine to me.

- Consider letting corpses be used again to help raise shrines. Right now, it's kinda an inexorable swing once people get momentum, due to how long sanctifying takes. If people could bash and help out with erecting, like in the old days, it would give non-fighters a much bigger role to play. Just tweak the numbers so it's not an instant raise/drop from a single quick clear.

Limit the PK to appropriate areas:

- Snag the unstable area/lesser aura concept. Turn a zone into an "unholy area" of maybe 2x shrine radius distance around a shrine that's been defiled/sanctified in the past 10 mins. Give "unholy aura" to people if they have sanctified/defiled/cracked a seal in the past 3 minutes.

- Same concept with monuments.

Augment the tactical options:

- Boost shrine powers more. We all have a billion (literally) SE, so give us way more to spend it on. Ideas:
- Have effects like Avatar persist after leaving shrine radius during a holy war, for an upkeep cost.
- Let players append ALL to shrine boosts/banes for a higher cost to let people remotely empower their shrines and help out maintaining shrine buffs from a distance.
- Let us do more than 3 worldburns because, eh, they aren't THAT op but they are great for letting someone outnumbered fight back.
- Introduce an option to give people a vanguard/prismatic barrier/etc - include a counter to this, obviously, but let us have a shrine power to basically make us super defensive to help mitigate overwhelming odds, for a cost.
- Consider an option to let us hire shrine guardians or make seals super strong, or something to introduce a way to slow down people just zerging shrines, and help out with defending shrines.
- Give a shrine glance command to let you look into a location of a shrine, to help people deal with hoods and whatnot.
- Remove godsbane. It just makes ninjaing easier and lets one Order curbstomp another super fast.

- Rework monuments. Nobody uses them. Partially because godsbane is far easier to use. Have their effects/loss be way more important. The actual mechanic for attacking/defending might not be that bad, it's just we never see them really involved.

Minimize the pain:

- Give extra xp on kills, assists and no xp on deaths to people with unholy aura/in unholy area. Make it suck less to die and more enticing to help. It worked for lessers, I guess.

- Make shrines only cost 10-15 shards to instantly erect, not 250, or let corpses be used to erect shrines. Make it easy to bounce back, so the focus is on fun conflict, not the boring afk that comes afterwards.

I am happy to discuss changes to the holy war system, as I think things could be improved - however, these threads repeatedly keep devolving into criticisms of my declarations of war themselves, now with antagonism towards me the player. This is the "crusade" (pun intended) I spoke of. I would like to see holy wars made more engaging and tactical, but I don't think the hostility towards me as a person has any part in the discussion.

Areka

You say that, but then continue in the same pattern and don't seem to consider the play of those outside of your order. It's a bit like jocks asking other jocks if they want to go pick on the nerds and then getting offended or defaulting to 'you just hate us' or calling in the whiteknight squad when there's negative feedback. No, this isn't to compare one side as stronger than the other, but that like-minded birds flocking together agreeing with each other is not the same thing as considering the whole arrangement or interaction.

Edit: In addition, using the excuse of coding time not being expended as a reason to continue in that same pattern, rather than you and us and the community working together to impact t he places we can to ensure that more fun is had all around and that the kinds of interactions and engagements that MORE people would find meaningful and enjoyable are more common.

Edit Edit: Because while yes, you as a player have a tool at your disposal, that does not mean that the other actions taken/approaches/and so on that are involved are the ones should be or are best. It does not mean that this is the way it should be or could be used. There is more that we can do as players just with our attitudes and the few moments of energy we expend to be more inclusive and considerate to improve things, than are often taken.

Moirean

Areka said:

You say that, but then continue in the same pattern and don't seem to consider the play of those outside of your order.

I say what? Here are ways to improve the system? I assumed that was the point of this thread. I've suggested ways to make the war itself better. I've suggested perhaps adjusting how declarations can be made. I'm not sure what you even want to be said, unless you guys are fishing for me to be contrite for declaring wars period. I'm not going to apologize for using a mechanic we've been given to make conflict, when we didn't even pick the fight in the first place.

The Damariel war I *did* apologize extensively for. I offered essence and laid myself bare on forums and in game, as a player - and that honest admission of mistake was thrown back at me in multiple mediums and as a tool to make me feel bad about myself as a person, so even if I did feel bad about the latest war (which I don't, I think it was entirely justified IG, and I think most people enjoyed it), why would I open myself to that again?

Trager

Hrm. I must have read that log of shouts wrong.

Gwenith

@Sibatti : We need you "Oh Boy" gif here.

Obyn

Alright kids. I was going to stay away from this topic personally, but it is clear to me a mod needs to step in. Let's reign in the personal attacks here, please. Keep discussion civil.

Zsadist

I don't have an order, nor will I ever. However, I agree with Moirean's ideas for finetuning the Holy War system. That's right. I said it, I agree with Moirean.... shocking, even to me.

Here are the things I agree with:

-Adding in a HOLYWAR JOIN command: This should be a definite addition to finetuning the system because, lets face it, getting jumped or the potential to get jumped during a holy war is high. As it stands, I have been personally questioned (multiple times) about whether or not I'm going to be defiling/defending shrines during holy wars. Another addition into this, is that when/if this command is implemented, change the colors of fighters OR have it broken down so that someone could color their enemies as needed.

-Alliances/shared pk: I LOVE LOVE LOVE pk. Do I get to do it as often as I'd like? No. Would I like to get some juicy delicious xp during holy wars? YEAH!!! However, HELP PK clearly states that only those who are in the warring orders are allowed to participate. So I can't help, even if asked. By allowing the forming of alliances, you could get some well needed assistance during down times where either side has a lull of fighters or even extra defense if you so needed it. The shared pk should be obvious, because it was such a hit with Leyline activity.

-Holy/Unholy aura area: This is an agreement/disagreement. Reason being, the aura area would allow for the ability of shared xp, disagreement because it would follow same rules as leyline aura. Obviously, casual hunters getting caught in the aura area would be free game, and any fighter worth their grain in salt has likely blocked all possible exits to leave from the room they are defending. This implementation could turn out both good and bad, but then you could also say that about the leyline aura area as well.

Now, while the previously mentioned items I agree with are there, I'd like to point out why I disagree with the Holy War system. Its pointless. Absolutely pointless. Nothing against Moirean, but according the past trend, 90% of all wars have been started by Iosyne's Order and then WON by Iosyne's Order. At some point, people get tired of running around, defiling shrines, erecting shrines, sanctifying shrines, etc etc. When, lets face it, at the end of the war, both sides are merely going to run back to their caves, lick their wounds, and simply RERAISE all lost shrines, in the SAME EXACT PLACE. I have been witness to that. Not only that, but losing shrines does absolutely NOTHING for said god. Iosyne doesn't gain a boost of power for each holy war her order wins, nor does she get a drain of power for each of her shrines that are destroyed. The Holy Wars, are pointless. While I do think that Moi's ideas can fine tune said system, it would still be incredibly pointless.

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@Everyone, if you really want a conflict system. Do something about it yourselves. Enorian, start a war with Spinesreach or Bloodloch, hell even Duiran, and vice versa. We're all adults here (most of us at least). I'm pretty sure we can start a war, have some epic PK fights, and end said war WITHOUT any feelings getting hurt, anyone being a damned dick and trolling others for fighting for their city, and/or extra collateral (non-combatant kills) damage (sorry, guard killing is part of wars, but thats not overly expensive), because lets face it, we all know who is/isn't a combatant.

You don't need a Holy War system, you don't need a War system. Just good ol' classic RP and a declaration of war.

Moirean

I think, in theory we could start wars and fights on our own. @Razmael coded Spinesreach an item to use for open-world fighting tournaments (it was a trophy that delayed movement speed and falls to the ground when the holder dies; the idea is that each org tries to carry it back to their city in a yearly funsies tournament Spines and Duiran were planning), but I think it got forgotten. I'd actually love to see that item granted to us, and maybe even expanded into a fun little PK system where orgs could spontaneously challenge another org to a trophy-race. Simple, fun, short burst of contained conflict.

Regarding RPing out wars in general, my concern is, based on many past experiences, that stuff gets out of hand. There have been many times where people from either side have tried to create a small-scale conflict, or a conflict between just two orgs, and it quickly escalates...And monitoring that is not only tiring to org leaders, it's kinda unfair - you're stuck telling your people to behave or stay out while they are having fun fighting, and the other side usually views you as breaking agreements or being spiteful, even if you try your best to mediate things to be fun for both sides. It's a lose-lose, and is not fun. Conflict systems are nice because there are clear goals and participants, and the onus isn't on players to basically act like admins.

Gwenith

Something is in the works in regards to ^ post.

Alexina

Wait, what.

Are you guys even serious? A lot of the time, I find myself nodding my head in quiet agreement with the lifer side, but you're complaining about this war, after Slyphe went and demolished Spire's guard force, and unleashed the kraken crabs in both our cities?

I mean... come on.

Seriously?

We're not supposed to respond to direct aggression because some of your players committed to an Order, which... basically are the only organizations in the game that have commitment as part of the job description?

I am disappoint.

Gwenith

They aren't complaining about the War. They are complaining about the Order War. People seemed content to have small-scale skirmishes which people could opt into being part of but the order war limited it only the people in the two orders being able to take part and those who didn't want to take part were forced into it anyway.

Again, not that there was a war, just that it was an Order War.

Lim

I think the crab thing was in response to a taunt by Moirean.

Rashar

@alexina: I'm not sure anyone was really throwing a huge fit, tbh Comments got made, replies got made, and some people feel like some things in those replies are getting a bit old. I think it's went quite a bit further than it needed to, but I guess I can't say much because I've made my share of comments. These things always escalate quickly.

Though I'm still trying to figure out what Spinesreach losing guards, or a silly crab infestation that turned into an event for you the has to do with Iosyne's Order declare a war over it. Especially when there was attacks by Spireans on Slyphian shrines, and Spirean leadership engaged in continual public disrespect for Sly. Let's see here..

Ezalor (Bloodloch)
Ilyon (Bloodloch)
Alexina (Bloodloch)
Ellenia (Bloodloch)
Yarel (Bloodloch) - though I'm pretty sure he didn't actually fight.

I dunno. Maybe we can just stop calling it the Order of Iosyne the Malevolent and start calling it Darkie Enforcer Club?

I really hate to beat a dead horse, and I guess I'm stubborn. I just honest to God can't figure out how that gets justified. Hell, you kept 3/4th of Spinesreach fighters out of it by making it an Iosyne thing, but then after you want to justify it by using crabs and guard slayings? I'm scratching my head, here.

Moirean

Lim said:

I think the crab thing was in response to a taunt by Moirean.

No. Slyphe challenged us to offer a bunch to earn favors (basically a way to throw us a bone since darkies have no active gods). A few days later, after we all offered our butts off, he went hahaha nope have crabs instead, and spawned mobs that infested the cities with spam for days.

I was away at Blizzcon for everything in between the start of the offering and me going ok enough crabs already. I popped in via blowtorch in that span for a few mins to read his post and was like O.o and made the snarky seafood festival post as a response.

Alexina

The war against Slyphe made perfect sense, and it baffled me to hear that people still complained about it.

Moirean

@Gwenith - Slyphe was the one who renegged the blessing promise, spawned the crabs, cursed people for a RL week, killed dozens of guards, and zapped people dozens of times. How was warring him not justified?

Xenia and Ishin's initial posts were about Spines as a whole not being part of it - and we've long since chatted about this IG, which is where the conversation belongs. Things have instead become a debate over the legitimacy of the war itself, with people citing me being a drunken whatever RL as reasons for --perfectly valid IC conflict-- being supposedly bad. That aspect of the conversation is a nasty combination of forum-RP and player bashing and has no place here. Discussions about the holy war system on its own are cool, as I think everyone agrees it could be improved (again, I've thrown out a ton of ideas), but I don't think we're going to get anywhere debating the cause of the last war itself. People will think what they will think.

Gwenith

Ehhhhh... yes the war against Slyphe is warrented. That's not what I am saying. Lets see...

Retaliation on Slyphe = Yes. Not what people are complaining about.

War being conducted in Iosyne's name = Why since this is suppose to be for insults against Spinesreach? All it did was exclude people who wanted in but weren't in the order and forced those of Slyphe's orders who, you know don't give damn about pk an obligation to get their butts kicked.

War being conducted in Spinesreach name = Would have been a better option even if you had to RP the damn thing. You know that thing that lets us do stuff that code can't?

Edit: I mean damn it. I know I'm relatively new to this game but the amount of times of fucking times people don't read or listen to what I say is really pissing me off right now. No this is not an attack on you specifically Moirean but this general attitude of ignoring what I say or ridiculed because I newb'd out and didn't knwo about some abstract piece of Aetloian code by the older players is really getting on my god damn tits.

Rashar

As a witness to the initial request - You challenged him to a duel, your order versus his and whoever won the most essence was blessed. He told you immediately that his Order was already doing a thing, and that maybe when it was over you could talk about it. Unless some other conversation happened that I don't know about, I think you're making up an agreement here.

Moirean

PUBLIC NEWS #5779
Date: 11/7/2014 at 1:25
From: Slyphe, the Tempest
To : Everyone
Subj: Bloodloch, Spinesreach, and a plague.

To the leaders of Spinesreach and Bloodloch:

Over the last months I have watched with great amusement as you attempted to curry My favor with offerings. Indeed, I found it quite amusing that you would think that your actions might be capable of impressing Me when I find the bulk of your actions abhorrent. You had much to work against these past months, to say the very least.

When you came begging to Me looking for My blessing I decided I would humor you. I also stated that should you be unable to impress Me your cities would be effected. To that end I have unleased several of my?pets upon the caverns of Bloodloch and city of Spires. It was folly of you to think that I would grant My favor to those who have so actively worked against Me in the past, who work against Me in the present, and who would brand Me an enemy of their cities as if any number of their guards could stop Me from taking what I desire.

Enjoy your just rewards.

-The Tempest

---

ie: He reiterated it himself in his 'HAVE CRABS' post.

Rashar

Must have been something he decided after the initial 'nope' he gave over shouts. Or, again, maybe I just missed it. I'm not exactly privy to all the conversations that happen around that Order anymore. :P

Ilyon

Rashar said:

Maybe we can just stop calling it the Order of Iosyne the Malevolent and start calling it Darkie Enforcer Club?

I like that. Let's do it.

Also, regarding the RP version of the conflict. In the absence of enforceable victory conditions, that would most likely turn into a much bigger mess than a holy war ever could. These conflicts tend to "snowball" - a few people from one side join, then a few from the other one, and before you know it, you have a world war in your backyard.

Rashar

Oh I get it, man. re: @ilyon. When there's no hard rule to restrict, things become lame. I wish people were more mature about it. I've said no to help three or four times in the last week for lessers, and just flat refused to web people until the odds evened up. It might seem like a dick move, but it's the -only- thing you can do to keep people from fighting.

System definitely flawed, system definitely could be better. But, mostly, I think the system could be -used- better.

Either way I have nothing bad to say about any of the people on the opposite side during that last war. You all were classy and fun, and I loved the fighting during it.

Moirean

I wish I could say the same about your side, but things like bitching to me nonstop during the war demanding even numbers and then after I tried to accommodate (Xenia and I sat out of many fights to keep numbers fair) excessively taunting and mocking when the numbers swung and stuff like running in/out of our shrines 50+ times per second to spam out OT means I can't.

Also, Slyphe cursing us (or, at least me) for a RL week, and during the war, that was super classy.

Yes, I'm a bit bitter. This forum crap is only the tip of the iceberg from the poor behavior from the order/god.

Rashar

I had people on my side getting bitched at OOCly for playing that particular character, so don't pretend that was one sided. And I'll call your bluff, here - let me see logs of someone from our side excessively taunting when the numbers swung (for all five minutes of it).

I did run in/out of the shrines, though. I was legitimately trying to distract you, for a second there. And for an extra second, I was just trying to be a jerk. :P

Moirean

Spamming out OT is never legit. And you weren't the only one (or even the worse offender by FAR. Imagine whatever you did and multiply it by 100. You were only a minor offender in shrinespamming). And I can pull up logs of taunts, but that would be calling individuals out, which is just baiting me to get forum banned so nothnx.

Obyn

This is another reminder, since I'm not 100% certain that everyone quite got that I was using my Mod voice in my last post here. Keep things civil, refrain from personal attacks, even veiled ones, and stay on topic.

Moirean

I kinda think you're the only mod reading this. When a post (again about my IC reason for declaring a holy war) like this:

Trager said:

If we're in the mood for making generalizations, I'm relatively sure 90% of Aetolia doesn't like your increasingly rampant bouts of drunk-tolia'ing, or the now ridiculous amount of times your previous toxic behavior keeps being forgiven.

Is just given a "hey guys, hey, stay on topic" it's clear mods are only calling it in.

Oleis

Moirean said:

Is just given a "hey guys, hey, stay on topic" it's clear mods are only calling it in.

This is the wrong place (and you are the wrong person) to stand up against lenient forum moderation. Thanks for your input. I'll be sure to stop phoning it in. Starting with this thread.