New ideas for Order Wars

124

Comments

  • GwenithGwenith Member Posts: 487 ✭✭✭✭
    It would be fun if all of Spinesreach / Bloodloch could react, but now if I understand Orderwars properly (which I might not) the retaliation is only allowed to be those in Iosyne's order.

    i like what @Xenia was doing, little skirmishes of Pinesloch citizens vs Slyphe supporters which any party with interests can buy into. It has the potential to include the greater number if people and is completely optional.

    Politics
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember, Newbie Helper, Guildmaster Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The irony here is that I was trying to minimize the grief and drama - a holy war has a clear start/stop and the conflict is contained, whereas defiling on its own has always been something people rage and moan about. I was trying to contain it to a single skirmish, so we'd make our point but people wouldn't be pulled into a long cycle of drama and griefing.

    Apparently by doing that, I've made things worse. :(
    The Divine voice of Razmael echoes in your head, "God of imps."
    Eugenides says to you, "Imp, Are you sure you were not born a Troll?"
    The Divine voice of Arion echoes in your head, "Every time I try to punish you for being so flippant, I find Myself laughing instead."
    Hugo has expressed his esteem of you for the following reason: Being a badass leader.
    image
  • RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Seems like a Spirean thing to me.

    Kind of crazy how half of Spinesreach is now completely out of the fight.

    That's all, though. Sorry you were so upset.
  • TragerTrager Raiding your underwear drawer.Member Posts: 573 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For my sanity;

    http://hastebin.com/jetuhepute.dos

    Looks to me like guard nuking might have been warranted. In a RP sense, all of it seems warranted. Let's just play it out and get some decent PK in. Kthx.
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's go-... Oh.


    RasharFaerah
  • GwenithGwenith Member Posts: 487 ✭✭✭✭
    Half of Spinesreach and 99% of Lifer combatants that would have made it interesting. That sai once I get to a computer I'll type up my suggestions to improve warfare in the realm!

    Politics
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher Member Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd be 1000000% on board with that so long as @Oleis or @Razmael had to approve it first. I didn't like hearing about players being forced out of cities
    image
    Ishin
  • LimLim Member Posts: 597 ✭✭✭✭
    Yeah. There needs to be a balance struck.
    HavenGwenith
  • GwenithGwenith Member Posts: 487 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    In relation to Gods worth I just want to highlight that there's a difference between factional conflict and someone personally pointing at you and shouting insults. It's two completely different scenarios and while I can imagine a god not being able to curse/kill a whole city at once if one little fly (or three) is niggling them over and over I don't see why they can't lay their righteous fury down the individuals.

    Now back to the real topic at hand! ORDER WARS.

    Let's get rid of them. To be honest people should be able to retaliate to things done with them as groups but at the moment the only way to do it is to announce a holy war that excludes a lot of people and quite frankly will always be squewed. From what I hear, On the Darkie side most PKers gravitate to one Order while on the Lifer side they are distributed between the Orders.

    Let's have instead Organisational wars! Cities, Guilds, Orders and Clans choosing to fight against whoever they want. I mean this current situation would make a whole of a lot more sense if Moirean could have proclaimed war for Spinesreach on Sylphe instead of the vaguely related auto-win card of Iosyne's Order.

    Points are collected by killing soldiers of either side, points taking away for killing civilians, or having civilians kill soldiers. You can get special raids activated where you would be assigned a raiding objective (Kill these denizens, stand in this room and steal ylem/resources) which both teams would be alerted to (Like a capture the flag thing). The quest could only be activated 1-2 times day and if you overstay your 1 hour time limit your war efforts numbers ticks down. Winner of the war would be whoever has the most points, or hits a target level (I had been thinking the winner judged by unaligned gods like Olies and Raz but people may cry foul).

    Or maybe no system at all. You just announce a war on someone on behalf of someone else in public news and go at it. Abiding to a code of wartime conduct written up, "no killing civilians, no raiding for more than an hour, no raiding ten times a day" and so on. I may have misguided trust, but in comparision to other games we have a moderately mature playerbase that could do right to others if given the chance.

    Politics
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aldric said:

    I agree with you there in that creative punishments would be great, but 9 times out of 10 when the issue arises that somebody's taunting a god with 'lol u suck' or 'so what kill me I'll just come back' (and let's be honest, that's the majority), that person simply isn't worth all of the effort it would take to write up and code a super special punishment for them.

    Why should the administrative team spend valuable time making special punishments for people that will still ultimately laugh them off or not learn anything from it, and will continue to exploit the fact that they know they're going to come back from an OOC perspective when they could be spending their time doing something much more productive?

    I just want to start this off by saying that I generally agree with your point because I'd personally prefer a balanced give and take relationship. I mean if someone won't meet me halfway, I'd want a valid reason to go the extra mile, right? But at the same time, I also understand that people play for different reasons and that largely influences what their commitment is in regards to certain aspects of the game and we can't make anyone play a certain way as much as we'd like to and frown. The longer we play and the more people we interact with and get to know, the clearer it gets as to who plays for what, I think. I don't say this to excuse certain behaviors but at the end of the day, I think it's important for the admin team (not to say that they do or don't already) at the very least still engage these people who'd laugh off the situation in an almost OOC manner just as equally as they would a player who took the situation with the gravity it warrants with the role they've taken if only to keep the game world consistent and immersive because then the admins are still adhering and giving credibility to the roles they want us players to believe in and support.

    I think a cool and unique 'punishment' that'd work as both a time-out and a solid plot-point to keep roles consistent and immersive would be a tiered or raid-like prison that a player gets tossed in. Dress it up with whatever lore: maybe it's the uncharted abyss of souls or a pocket in the dreaded shadow realm or maybe its just beyond the folds of time.

    Then the player has to either quest/fight/whatever their way out or submit themselves to a hex. The tier would determine the difficulty for the mobs within or perhaps the quest level as well as what the opt-out punishment (hex) is. Whether it's a whole level drain or temporary skill lock or whatever. The more adjustable the better. Whatever the case may be, the world would then remain consistent and there would still be points towards the whole "fear and awe" of the god's role. That's my two cents anyway.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    Ishin
  • RiluoRiluo The DoctorMember Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭
    I tend to agree what has been said, although in terms of the "auto-win card of Iosyne's Order." There is only three combatants in the order who are about. Those being Moirean, Ezalor and Mazzion. I am not a combatant as I own no system and use firstaid, so I would hardly call myself anything to fear.

    In terms of how the current system works, it is garbage and will never be fun when it holds no true meaning or consequence on the world. I would understand if for example Iosyne won a war and her influence affected the world around us all with abomination's and such wondering about at night.

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

  • IlyonIlyon Member Posts: 746 ✭✭✭
    Riluo said:

    Those being Moirean, Ezalor and Mazzion.

    :(

    RiluoHavenTrager
  • GwenithGwenith Member Posts: 487 ✭✭✭✭
    Sorry @Ilyon, you're delegated to the non-combatants that don't count Like Xenia and Mene.. Menellelelleleus.. Menel.. that guy.

    Politics
    Haven
  • RiluoRiluo The DoctorMember Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    Ilyon said:

    Riluo said:

    Those being Moirean, Ezalor and Mazzion and his magnificence Ilyon destroyer of worlds

    :(
    My bad I blame old age on my part :(

    Oh my god menefail joined... it is now time to leave the order and rejoin Slyphe again :neutral_face:

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

    Ishin
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember, Newbie Helper, Guildmaster Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ezalor was the only one on for 100% of the war. I had to go to work and do paperwork stuff for a few hours in the middle. Ilyon was sporadically afk. Xenia and Menelaus joined midway through. Ellenia was present for about 30 minutes, but had serious system issues. Alexina was there for about 2 hours. That was our entire team.

    This war was pretty balanced, in terms of fight match-ups, and we often had smaller numbers. Frankly, it makes me upset to hear people constantly cite how we're bullies or have a win card and spew nonsense about greater numbers - that is not only disrespectful to our fighting ability (we went into fights that were 7v4 (us being the 4) and won), but more than that - this sort of mindset is pervasive throughout Aetolia, and it is the kind of thing that can sour one's own enjoyment of the game: they only won the fight because they had more people, they only won because x class is super OP, so-and-so only won that election because they did x-y-z, so-and-so only won a great hunt because they are an arti-whore, etc.

    It's easy to cite a reason for a loss, in whatever aspect of the game. It's harder to actually analyze why, acknowledge where your own flaws and weaknesses are, and then improve them. Often, forum threads focus more on the first, without much emphasis on the second (it's even seen as trolling or mean to point out the flaws), but when we see the same things brought up and even changes to the game made based on these, it becomes very frustrating, as changing stuff won't fix the fundamental issue of ostriching.

    Holy wars, as they are, aren't a perfect system and there are things that could definitely be fixed, but a large number of the complaints we hear about them wouldn't be addressed by a change to the system. A new system would just introduce new tactics for one group to use better than the other, and we'd see a new iteration of rants about how the system sucks.
    The Divine voice of Razmael echoes in your head, "God of imps."
    Eugenides says to you, "Imp, Are you sure you were not born a Troll?"
    The Divine voice of Arion echoes in your head, "Every time I try to punish you for being so flippant, I find Myself laughing instead."
    Hugo has expressed his esteem of you for the following reason: Being a badass leader.
    image
  • TragerTrager Raiding your underwear drawer.Member Posts: 573 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I had fun during the war. While I don't think your gauge of numbers throughout was entirely accurate, we'll assume for your sake that you are right.

    What my issue stems from, yet again, the starting of the war versus how it played out during the war.
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's go-... Oh.


    Rashar
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember, Newbie Helper, Guildmaster Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Maybe they should remove the ability from OHs to start Holy Wars, then, or introduce more expansive requirements to start one. I'm not being trolly or ranty with this, but legitimately pensive. It's clear that me declaring wars upsets people - but from my side of things, I am given this tool as a player, and I check with the other players in my org to see if they want me to use it, and so I do. Iosyne always gave me a thumbsup when I have, saying it matched her tenets.

    There are no rules I can find laid out restricting my use of this, aside from the built-in CD mechanism - I check with my order because I want to. I don't war on CD because that would be excessive. I've never had an admin tell me I'm breaking rules for doing it. From my perspective, this is a tool I'm given to use and being upset about me using it is like being upset at someone tapping a lesser.
    The Divine voice of Razmael echoes in your head, "God of imps."
    Eugenides says to you, "Imp, Are you sure you were not born a Troll?"
    The Divine voice of Arion echoes in your head, "Every time I try to punish you for being so flippant, I find Myself laughing instead."
    Hugo has expressed his esteem of you for the following reason: Being a badass leader.
    image
  • RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    I wasn't going to get involved, because I think this is bound to be a downward spiral into wasted time, but I'll give it a shot. Like Trager said - I think people are irritated a lot more by how they begin than by how they are conducted.

    I really think that at the end of the day holy wars are a larger version of PK. Sure, I can conjure up some 'cause' to go PK you, or whoever else. You've done it often enough, I've certainly done it, but in the end when you're obviously more serious about it / better at it / whatever it becomes another repetition of the same. Maybe you guys are just the most elite group of PKers and gamers known to man. Awesome. All credit to you, yeah? But people get upset. People frown on it if you do it often enough, and it causes bad feelings and animosity. Which is cool, it's mostly on the other end of the game and if you're into the 'you vs us' I guess it is what it is.

    I've heard 'If gods are just going to bully (zap) us, we have to do what we can to retaliate' so many times.. I'd say declaring war is a way bigger imposition on others time and enjoyment than any dozen zaps. Sure, this one was mostly cool - started in the morning, lasted throughout the day (grumble, some people work) and into the afternoon. Mostly it was combatants on during that time, so even when outnumbered it was fun and I didn't hear much bitching. When it dropped down to like.. me, Cronides, and Luxanna available to fight and we knew it was about the time of day when all of you start logging on, someone - I assume Kerryn - made the decision to surrender. Not too griefy, all in all not a bad day.

    Of course, I'm not in the Order and don't have to spend the week sanctifying all those shrines that were lost.

    Still an imposition, and a pretty big one. It could have easily gone another way and been noncoms around all day getting waylaid. I've heard you complain often enough about Conner relentlessly hunting you because of bounties, and I'm sure when you're just not in the mood to PK someone bothering you is irritating. War declared so frivolously is basically doing that to a large group of people, right? And once again, it was an issue of 'Wake up, oh hey another war. Wonder what happened. *scroll back to see shouts*'

    Guess my point is you're justifying a pretty hefty drain on a relatively large chunk of players' time without considering them, whether or not they're interested, involved or even aware of it, by saying that the system is flawed, or if they don't want you doing it, they should take it away, or that people are just mad because they're not as good, or .... etc. Those aren't reasons to do something. They're reasons you shouldn't be blamed, if you do something the -right- way.

    Hey, I've done a lot of really stupid things around here because I drank too much, or I was depressed, or I was angry. I'm paying the price for that, and it'll take me quite a bit of effort to build anything close to a positive reputation back. Maybe, just once, we want to hear you (not even necessarily Moirean, just.. you) wake up the next morning and say, "Man. That's my fault, I probably shouldn't have taken it that far." instead of listing off all the reasons it's cool for you to impose way more on a dozen players than the one God that zapped you a few times for being globally insulting did.

    Edited: Wording adjusted to (try) not to imply insult. Not my intent here, by any means.
    Trager
  • XeniaXenia Member Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Can we please just close this thread and take these confrontations to, I dunno, personal messages or something. It's like sheesh, do I really need to know how you all -really- feel. It's imposing on my: Don't know, Don't care, rule.

    Thanks.

  • TragerTrager Raiding your underwear drawer.Member Posts: 573 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Closing the thread would accomplish the same thing as not clicking on that flashy, "New ideas for Order Wars (1 new posts)". That is to say, my route requires some form of self-control.
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's go-... Oh.


  • XeniaXenia Member Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I play a drunk in game because clearly, I have no self control. Can I get an adult please?

  • RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    Taking opinions to personal messages* is all good and well for hiding uncomfortable confrontation, but I really think that kind of behavior is a major source of the problem in this particular regard. Namely, the sheer number of people that will complain or at the very least admit that these wars (and similar behavior) are absurd more often than not when in private or small groups, but will lol and highfive and knuckle bump to encourage and enable over CT/CLT/forums.

    Everything is hilarious when you're part of the pack or when the negative has no effect on you, but when the same sort of thing is aimed in your direction it all becomes a different sort of animal. I guess that's pretty much human nature, though. We're all guilty of it, really. I certainly laugh at @trager when he goes around PKing people in waves, but it'd probably be irritating if I were the one sitting in a Delosian pub RPing when it happened.

    ETA: Forgot a word!
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember, Newbie Helper, Guildmaster Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Or maybe it's just that 90% of the forums don't want to continually read your 2-man crusade anymore.
    The Divine voice of Razmael echoes in your head, "God of imps."
    Eugenides says to you, "Imp, Are you sure you were not born a Troll?"
    The Divine voice of Arion echoes in your head, "Every time I try to punish you for being so flippant, I find Myself laughing instead."
    Hugo has expressed his esteem of you for the following reason: Being a badass leader.
    image
  • RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    Yeah, you're probably right.

    Disregarding the fact that the number of times I've agreed with, defended, or stood up for you is far greater than the opposite, I suspect you're right in that I've developed some irrational crusade and am obviously only out to slander your good name.

    Man, you're frustrating sometimes. :(
  • TragerTrager Raiding your underwear drawer.Member Posts: 573 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If we're in the mood for making generalizations, I'm relatively sure 90% of Aetolia doesn't like your increasingly rampant bouts of drunk-tolia'ing, or the now ridiculous amount of times your previous toxic behavior keeps being forgiven.
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's go-... Oh.


  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember, Newbie Helper, Guildmaster Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would like to remind you that this is a GAME. There is a strong history and trend in Aetolia's community to criticize and demonize players, which absolutely undercuts the really awesome community we have here. Shaming and judging people RL does nothing except undermine our community.
    The Divine voice of Razmael echoes in your head, "God of imps."
    Eugenides says to you, "Imp, Are you sure you were not born a Troll?"
    The Divine voice of Arion echoes in your head, "Every time I try to punish you for being so flippant, I find Myself laughing instead."
    Hugo has expressed his esteem of you for the following reason: Being a badass leader.
    image
  • XeniaXenia Member Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What fist-bumps are you referring to, Rashar? I -started- this thread cus I was annoyed about the holy war. Then Oleis made the astute suggestion that I take it IC, which was done. Moirean was confronted, ICly, by those of us who'd have preferred the conflict dealt differently.

    You assume it was just us, what, complaining in forums then being like, oh it's all good, in game. Hey, an easy mistake because we're not airing it all out for everyone to see.

    In regards to your point suggesting I laugh when it's my side on the up and 'their' side on the down-- that's simply not true. I've got empathy, and I understand the amount of time and BS it is to put up shrines after so many are destroyed. It's partially why I was even RPing in a Delosian pub, where Trager killed me. So I could put in the face-time to show that I sincerely was willing to help share the burden of time required to replace shrines.

    It doesn't matter though, I wanted the thread to be closed because I could sense that it was going to turn into bickering, and yeah, I fell prey to making a flippant response to Trager. Hey, I'm not perfect!

    Ishin
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosomsMember, Guildmaster Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Chilllllll. Everyone.

    I don't think this is a Crusade. I do not think making every disagreement or critique a crusade or about more than it is is helpful or productive nor fair for other players involved or impacted by decisions, and this goes on all sides. This goes for this topic, the Immersion topic, and what seems like -every- topic since this seems to be the standard more than the exception.

    It was certainly unfun when the forumcrusade was tearing apart Enorian and there were pages of unnecessary blanket animosity, but I also understood part of the root and have taken those points to mind and continue to consider them going forward.

    This currently is the same argument that's been had before, it doesn't seem like folk really want to address it, all of it, so let's save our breath to cool our porridge, yeah?

    To be somewhat productive: I think more should be involved with declaring order wars. I think there should be certain checkpoints to it becoming a war - thresholds and so on, maybe, as that would allow for different scales of conflict that can escalate or deescalate and can become more integrated with RP on both sides of the fence and the actual people involved, rather than it being order vs to god through order. I also feel like shrines should only be part of a war. Looking back at holy conflict, even in just things like the Clash of the Titans movies, there's a lot of interesting and colourful things that could be done and tailored to unique obstacles for each god.
    image
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