New ideas for Order Wars

Exayne

Order Conflict via Shouting Insults Across Sapience

Teani

Alright, this is going to be long. After this I'm done for a while. There's a TL;dr at the bottom

@Exayne: There needs to be a change because there are those who really don't like the current format of the holywars. I thought that had been made quite clear after all the posts made on the forums (from both PKers and non-coms).

Yes, it's a war, so it means there will have to be some element of fighting, but to make it more fun for those who are -not- interested in that part of the war, perhaps adding other things into this would give them an alternative. Compromising, you know? You can't keep everyone happy, but you can try to put in a few small elements to make it less crappy.

The suggestions made so far have ranged between removing open PK completely to adding a JOIN function for those who want to take part in the conflict to adding auras to those who do something actively in the conflict. I'd say that's quite varied and opens up for communication and perhaps some compromises. Yeah, I'm sure that PKers will be -very- upset if they are suddenly not allowed an open smorgasboard of people to kill. Oh goodness, we can't disappoint the PK community! Better to let the non-coms remain disappointed, get slaughtered or stick to idling?

@Nalor: It's an alternative, definitely. The problem is that if, say, Iosyne's Order (which we all know is full of PKers and looks forward to some fighting) declares war against another Order (let's face it, most other Orders have less people inclined to fight than they do, making them the underdog), the other Order would then respond with just about any other choice than the PK option, which is what the PKers of the other Order would have prefered. This means that Iosyne's Order wouldn't get the PK they want and (I'm just guessing wildly here) be disappointed and perhaps whine about not getting enough fighting out of the conflict.

Wasn't that what happened when the option Shrinewar/PKwar was removed? (Not sure, it's a legit question, cause I don't know)

As for @Jensen's initial idea in the first post, I don't think a minigame is the way to go with holywars. There are, as @Moirean said, arenas for those kinds of games and it feels like it removes the strategy part as well as removing any chance for non-coms to participate other than as meat shields. Unless you had some ideas on how to implement that into your thing?

@Moirean mentioned a lot of things that people can do that are not fighting. However, some of these things require a certain rank in the Order to use, as sometimes high-ranked people need to log out. Spamming Shrinesight/who is not the most engaging things to do and without a hood, that won't do much if the other side are hiding and you can't put up shrine watching. Bashing is fun for some, but not for all. What I mean is, it would be great if there were more RP-related options, which is what I'm trying to come up with.

I know that I have added some suggestions on how to add in compliments (not to remove the PK elements, but to ADD to that) but there have been few comments on that other than to stop trying to remove/diminish PK from the PK-interested people. It's getting rather tiresome to come up with ideas when they are not even discussed. If you are interested in discussing more ways to make this system interesting and fun for all people (while still calling it a war, still being able to PK, but opening up for other things too), try to open your minds and accept that you might have to compromise a little bit. I'm not saying you have to add my ideas in, or even have them in their current form. They are ideas one can spin off from and perhaps pick apart. I'm sure there are others out there who have great ideas, but seeing how suggestions about non-com things getting smacked down is discouraging.

*shrug* My thoughts. If you want to comment and discuss what I've written, feel free to write me a PM.

TL;DR
- There is something wrong with the system, otherwise people wouldn't be complaining.
- If you're interested in actually making the system interesting for everyone, be prepared to compromise.
- Open your mind and instead of smacking down ideas, discuss them and try to come up with alternatives if they're not good enough and explain why they might be better by comparing.
- Minigame would not be a good idea, because there are already Arena games for that sort of conflict and it would make non-coms have even less impact on things.

Ilyon

Teani said:

Yeah, I'm sure that PKers will be -very- upset if they are suddenly not allowed an open smorgasboard of people to kill.

Nah, killing noncoms is boring.

Nalor

true @Teani but, if thats the case then Im sure something can be done for PK side of things .. Add in the Rooster thingy, So if your not on it, your not pkable...

That was my point in only allowing the God/Divine to start order wars so then maybe it has some RP behind it as from my knowledge the past 2 I dont think it did... besides oocness.. (I could be wrong but thats my point of it) ..

Id hate to take way full pk from the order wars but if it had different things to choose from which are also fun, doing none pk now and then might be fun.. Also get more people involved.

PERSONALLY Every war I've been in its just been How many times can we kill the order members while letting 2/3 people run round doing the shrines, Any order member outside a city (even inside sometimes) is open PK and killable.

Exayne

Teani said:

@Exayne: There needs to be a change because there are those who really don't like the current format of the holywars. I thought that had been made quite clear after all the posts made on the forums (from both PKers and non-coms).

So...we're going to push forward a change because some don't like the current system and that completely outweighs the opinions of people who do...with little to no evidence of such and views from a very few select people with distinctly bias opinions on the system. But of course because a few people think so and write about it means there absolutely indefinitely must be a change. As I said earlier, the only thing that really needs to be tweaked is the acceptance of Order Wars.

@Ilyon agreed, waste of time and resources killing non-comms and the people that do are normally laughed/shouted at by other PKers

@Teani once more. I really don't like Cutters, Remove them from Aetolia please.

Jensen

Before the rage thread got shut down there were admins posting about the not funness and griefyness of current order wars. The handful that enjoy it tend to be the overpowering winner. I opened this thread because it seems clear that it'll only take a few more roflstomp order wars before they get nixed like the war system did.

Rashar

I love this whole, "Lots of people enjoy Holy Wars," argument.

Please.

Lots of people enjoyed the fucking Holocaust, too. Doesn't mean the people on the receiving end of that shit weren't a bit justified in their complaints.

"Lots of people" would enjoy it if Aetolia were made pure PK all day, tethers were removed, classes were free and so were lessons, artifacts didn't exist, and Exayne and Plato were perma-muted. "Lots of people" would enjoy "lots of things" that shouldn't be. Damn.

Everything here has to be split between PKers and non-PKers, man. It gets so old. I promise, they can occupy the same place at the same time and still have fun. Stop glaring at each other as if you each held the one true ring of funtimes, and there was a desert and a language barrier between you.

Toz

There's the Hitler argument/comparison we were all waiting for.

- Can the two things (pk and !pk) coexist? No, not by definition. You can't also have white and black, hot and cold, etc.
- 'Enjoyment' is the primary reason for playing a game, so it makes a significantly bigger deal here than with respect to the Holocaust. When balancing a game, you have to decide if the nature of the enjoyment is worth whatever downsides it may create.
- Things aren't split between 'PKers and non-PKers' for the most part - however, right now in this thread, it's non-PKers not enjoying a conflict system and everyone who wants/enjoys conflict/pk digging in their heels because this is the last 'meaningful' conflict system we have.

Moirean

Can we please stop bringing up that order wars have been declared for "OOC" reasons? It's a completely bunk thing to even bring into the discussion - there is nothing that says there needs to be an immense build up of RP before starting one. They are a conflict mechanism. They are there to create conflict. Disable them if we're going to be yelled at for using something that is open to us, as players, to supposedly use. Might as well get rid of raiding as well. That upsets people too. Just shut everything off like they did with the war system. It worked really well, afterall.

Ishin

I always figured people went to war in order TO pk.

I always figured diplomats and other kinds of people handled shit before/after you went to war.

Man I guess I had that shit wrong.

Aishia

I think part of the problem is, it's never really mutual. And to be fun for both sides it probably needs to be. It's seldom even equal, I think if people found it THAT fun you'd see random orders with equal numbers declaring on each other a lot more, and not just the same huge order declaring on people whenever they mad.

Gwenith

I think maybe a bit if ooc communication might be in Oder if the current system is to be kept. Whoever is declaring the war talk to the head of the other and going "Hey, we are going to declare a war. We'll give a list of coms that are going to be fighting for you and well try and match. we can discuss surrender terms like x amount of essence/shrines lost"

That's sorta how I handled conflict in previous games. just a bit of ooc etiquette and comminicateion to the other players at the start made it feel less of a imposed thing

Eleanor

Guys, the thread's already over, Godwin's Law happened.

Moirean

Gwenith said:

I think maybe a bit if ooc communication might be in Oder if the current system is to be kept. Whoever is declaring the war talk to the head of the other and going "Hey, we are going to declare a war. We'll give a list of coms that are going to be fighting for you and well try and match. we can discuss surrender terms like x amount of essence/shrines lost"

That's sorta how I handled conflict in previous games. just a bit of ooc etiquette and comminicateion to the other players at the start made it feel less of a imposed thing

OOC communication has been tried many, many times in the past. Not everyone ends up in the loop, or some people refuse to adhere to it, or don't like the terms OOCly agreed to, or find that the OOC agreements impose on their IC prerogative or groups not involved see the shouts/deathsights/groups on WHO and join in as well (see: the Carni vs Shaman Great Rock conflict Macian and I set up that turned into Carnis being ganged up on by every lifer online + Dhar). Most frustratingly, it then opens the door to us, as players, being bitched at once things don't go perfect.

Jensen

Is making open pk aura zones in areas with order monuments an option? Attack/defense of defilers in those zones while hunters hunt for more meat to for the grinder?

Sarkis

It seems as though orders that are inherently aggressive have a distinct advantage over those who are less likely to declare one. It may be appropriate to set up an attacker-defender sort of system, where the aggressive party must accomplish a specific set of goals (perhaps even specific to the Order in question) and the defenders must form a strategy to repel or prevent the aggressive ones from doing it. Incorporate activities that would provide a range of roles in that defense, perhaps. The defiling/pk thing is fine, but not very fun for a lot of people, as well. If there was a way to perhaps successfully preach to a populace and sway it, for instance, as part of order wars.

The more aligned the population was to the particular Order, the bigger the boons that population's 'faith' could be when swayed. For instance, swaying a population of undead to Ivoln is not a big deal. But swaying them to a Lifer god would be a major coup. Furthermore, if the aggressor is successful they have control over a new populace and related boons, where as if the defender is successful, they might receive a boost of essence from defending itself.

I realize the idea above in and of itself is a bit rough, but something of that nature could make it feel more involved than attacking shrines and deepen the RP involved with Order Wars. One of the reasons I generally refuse to join an Order at this time is because of how broken the mechanics are, how limited and clunky they seem to be, and how it doesn't even feel like a real war of faith.

Teani

@Sarkis: First page of this thread.

Teani said:

I wrote somewhere about making it possible for Order members to preach to NPCs and turn their loyalty. The difficulty would depend on previous alignment and other factors, like how long someone remains there to preach and if certain key words are used in the conversation or if someone else is present to counter or argue sentiments. It would be a lot trickier to code in, sure, but I think it would make things fun for non-coms.

This could be used as a way to expand on fractions, making a village more loyal to certain Divine, while having a black sheep somewhere in their midst worshipping a different Divine.

Other ideas I've mentioned have been quest strings where non-coms could search for relics or solve puzzles that could provide an edge to their side. An alternative could be to have these quests make it more difficult for the opposing side to achieve their goal.

Xenia

This isn't where this post should go, but as I don't know where to post it, and Order Wars is sort of the topic, I'm gonna go ahead and post it here.

A holy war was declared between Iosyne and Slyphe's order in response to the crabs that Slyphe sent to Bloodoch and Spinesreach. Now I recognize that both cities have members within this order, but man, I can't help but feel like the wind got pulled from beneath my wings.

The night before, Ishin, Grimdale and I had just started attacking the shrines renegade style because we were hoping to get some fun PK group fights, without making it over the top or blown out of proportion. I saw potential for some RP to come out of it and something that a lot more people could get involved in. We didn't necessarily make a formal declaration towards Slyphe nor did we organize it formally within the city-- but that's not to say it wouldn't have built up to that. I was hoping to see how it would organically grow, this attempt at rustling up conflict, without necessarily going into a full out order war, which limits participation.

What Ishin and I were starting to do, from my point of view, wasn't overtly griefy, if nobody was going to come and fight us, we'd have stopped defiling shrines cus that's boring. However 2-3 people camping out at shrines, defiling them getting noticed by a few lifers is not too overwhelming a number to go in and chase off. Thus conflict and PK is generated-- Sure we were immediately hit with 5 or 6 people, but I like to think that as our first clash, all participants were still just trying to figure out what was going on and it would have come to its own balance. Is this not a valid way to respond to a perceived attack/sleight from a god to a city?

TL/DR -- Why are Holy Wars consistently the only recourse when there's a large group that have a reason to be in conflict with a god?

Jensen

I had fun last night going after you guys guess ill need to step out

Ishin

Jensen said:

I had fun last night going after you guys guess ill need to step out

Well, like you and I talked about, it wasn't necessarily an issue that you guys had twice the amount of people we did. We don't care about that, it was still fun.

What @Xenia has an issue with, if I read her post correctly, is that it seems to(somehow) have immediately defaulted to a holy war while we were asleep and basically, that completely robs those of us who kinda started it of our fun. Not that we begrudge others their fun, but...why take ours to make it your own?

Oleis

I'm not usually a guy to complain about forum roleplay, but I have to admit that this would make for a much more interesting discussion in-character, as it directly pertains to your side's leadership!

Rashar

Did you expect anything less, considering who is involved?

I had fun with the couple of fights that happened before I went to bed and, like @xenia said, we were at that point just trying to figure out what was going on. I'm not even in the order anymore, but Slyphe is so ingrained into Rashar's rp that I just organized a defense and went to town. It would have been cool to play that out without this end, but I can't say anybody, on our side anyway, is surprised.

0 point in dragging it up again though. This is an argument that is had every time with the same result. I'm just going to enjoy the fighting while it lasts and whatever rp comes with it. I'd just ask that everyone stay positive if we can.

Jensen

Sort of, I was on the life side this time. I wasn't aware it had anything to do with Iosyne at the time.

Rashar

It never does, @jensen. It never does.

Ishin

Jensen said:

Sort of, I was on the life side this time. I wasn't aware it had anything to do with Iosyne at the time.

When you guys were fighting against me, Xenia, and Grimdale, it didn't have anything at all to do with Iosyne.

Jensen

We should go fight elsewhere tonight, but I'm afraid we'd light off an unrelated riot.

Xenia

You know, I'd like to point out that I don't see this as Moirean's fault because she likely didn't even know that Ishin, Grimdale and I had started our own thing. If anything, it's an issue of a lack of communication.

As for Oleis' suggestion that it be handled IC'ly, I think that's a good suggestion and from this point on, I will treat it as such. In fact, I rather regret drawing attention to the matter here in forums now, because it goes against what I try to do, which is to address issues in game with RP.

I think my real reason for posting was to get a confirmation that there's not some sort of unspoken rule against people going out and attacking shrines as retaliation outside of Order Wars. I'd like to request that any responses to my posts only address that topic instead of attacking/commenting on whether it was appropriate that an order war was declared. Frankly, whatever we express OOCly will only negatively effect what can organically evolve IC .

Thanks!

Toz

Someone should start an IC fight club. Show up in a Delosian bar, divide into teams and start swinging. Or don't divide into teams and start swinging.

Rashar

No, @xenia. Not at all. It's been done several times in good taste and with great results by @ezalor, by @arbre, by @ashmer, and by @trager.

Moirean

2014/11/12 13:21:47 - Slyphe slew a Syssin Inquisitor that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:21:48 - Slyphe slew a cabalist of jherza that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:21:48 - Slyphe slew a Republican guard that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:21:48 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:25:01 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:25:12 - Slyphe slew a cabalist of jherza that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:25:14 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:25:15 - Slyphe slew a Spirean Sciomancer that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:25:22 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:25:22 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:25:22 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:25:29 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:25:33 - Slyphe slew a cabalist of jherza that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:25:34 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:25:34 - Slyphe slew a Spirean Sciomancer that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:25:40 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:25:41 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:25:41 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:25:41 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:25:42 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:25:42 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:26:55 - Slyphe slew a Spirean Sciomancer that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:26:56 - Slyphe slew a Republican guard that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:26:56 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:26:56 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:26:56 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:26:56 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:26:57 - Slyphe slew a Spirean Sciomancer that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:26:57 - Slyphe slew a cabalist of jherza that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:26:57 - Slyphe slew a Spirean Sciomancer that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:26:58 - Slyphe slew a Spirean Sciomancer that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:27:03 - Slyphe slew a Spirean Sciomancer that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:27:03 - Slyphe slew a Syssin Inquisitor that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:27:04 - Slyphe slew a Syssin Inquisitor that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:27:04 - Slyphe slew a cabalist of jherza that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:27:04 - Slyphe slew a Spirean Sciomancer that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:27:05 - Slyphe slew a Republican guard that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:27:05 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:27:06 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:27:06 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:27:20 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:27:20 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:27:20 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:27:21 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:27:21 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:27:21 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.
2014/11/12 13:27:21 - Slyphe slew a conscripted Spirean soldier that was loyal to you.

Go on, Rashar, rant more about how I'm so out of line.