Class dispensing again

Irruel

I only read as far as the second page. Dont have the time for more.

I suggested this a while back.

All neutral classes ought to be guildless, with a different (suitable to each) mechanic for class dispensing and the outlet for RP.

In the way shapeshifters have packs, monks would gravitate to dojos.

Syssin would, naturally, form themselves into cells.

And the Ascendril/Sciomancers would become a single class, with a single unique org. Faction choices would determine which skills (ascendril/scio) they would get and therefore which tether they end up part of.

Haven

Moirean said:

I don't see how that would help at all. It would just make people quit their existing guild and face being booted by the new guild (and people DO boot people who join via Certimene).

They're not allowed to. If someone does that to you, issue yourself and admin will rectify it. Usually they just reinduct you but I've seen rare cases where they just give you the class.

And while it would suck that you gotta quit your current guild, you can always just rejoin after you got the class you're looking for. Hopefully your original guild is an understanding sort and consider it just a vacation or something. A means to an end.

Moirean

Guilds definitely boot. And using Certimene like that - and abandoning your guild like that - is just really meh.

Teani

I haven't managed to muster the energy to read through all these pages, but I'd like to point out that despite writing up a nice letter with what I believed were quite good reasons and made sense, as well as RPing about asking for the Syssin class, and being part of Spinesreach for quite a while before approaching anyone too I might add, I was denied the skills. It sort of makes me rather sad when I realize that others manage to get the class when they're not even allies. There's this feeling of "apparently I've pissed someone off OOCly or something, because they won't accept my application even though I go through the right channels" and that's not a nice feeling to get.

I've already gotten another class now. I considered buying that monthly promo to get another class slot at the time, but because of the rejection I didn't. Just my two cents, I guess.

Trager

@Teani - Were you given any reason, or inquiry into it further then that after they denied it? Certainly sounds like you took the right steps, so I'd definitely call fool on them if that's how it played out. Watching all of this I've come to a number of conclusions, one of them being thus:

Syssin are, in truth, really only gimping their own tether/allies. As a Lifer, I've picked up Syssin off/on for years now, whenever I really wanted it with just some silly, well-placed bribes. It's different if its an ally, I think, that option isn't so readily available. I can only imagine the frustration when you see enemies at lessers picking up Syssin class through one means or the other, only to have your proper, well-documented attempt shot down.

Teani

I was told I wasn't trusted enough, basically. Different words were used, but that was the general idea. They held a referendum and almost everyone voted against me apparently, which is kind of strange since I've committed no crimes against the Syssin or Spinesreach (which they defend) even when I was part of Duiran. Having been part of Duiran was apparently what made me not trustworthy, even though Teani grew up in Spinesreach to begin with. *shrug*

Mephistoles

Moirean said:

Guilds definitely boot. And using Certimene like that - and abandoning your guild like that - is just really meh.

If you know specific organizations or people who are doing it, you should probably report them.

Erzsebet

It's possible to play someone who doesn't want their class shared while still allowing the class to be shared, incidentally. It just requires the guild itself to have more of that stance in general.

Kiralla doesn't like -anything- about multi-class system. She very much disapproves that BB are anything but BB, that there are now rogue BB, and especially that we share the class with folk who don't bother to join the guild. She fought the latter out with the leadership who took the stance of the system the guild has now. And as a member of the council for some time after it all went in, she tried to look at it from a standpoint that just disregards the objection to giving class. She'll speak out against it if she feels there are -other- reasons why they shouldn't have the class. But otherwise, she just refuses to do it personally.

The problem, if indeed there is a problem, I really don't think there is, is that -all- of the Syssin leadership feel this way. The GM doesn't really think the class should be shared anymore than the other leadership does, so they can't just lay down a 'we're doing it this way, fall in' sort of smackdown.


ETA: Last I heard, kicking people who have a history (with your org or otherwise) who join via certimene or Kelende etcetera is totally acceptable? Especially where there is a stated out-of-guild-accessible process. Though in my experience, mostly people just get stuck on probation till they've gone through that process.

Like. I dunno. If Daskalos up and joined Ve'kahi or something. It'd be a very knee-jerk reaction to just kick him immediately without questioning it. Though admittedly, I'd probably only kick him near-to-immediately, because he's alive and thereby would absolutely tank the scores listed on Tophouses.

Still. In general, last I checked it's bad form for people who have a history with an org to just by-pass all of that with Certimene/Kelende.

Xavin

That's exactly what the problem is. They're looking at it from a sort of selfish point of view. Basically a 'these are our toys, and anyone who wants to play with them without joining our little club can go screw themselves'. When those sorts of things happen in the real world, there are often big consequences for the organization. i mean, yeah, this is just a game but someone having your skillset outside of your guild does not diminish your fun at all. As long as they're not breaking the rules or actively antagonizing you, what's the problem?

Edit: And I guess that is the root of the problem here. The people who are seeing what they're doing are feeling like the syssin are being selfish/elitist/entitled, while the syssin themselves are saying that anyone who disagrees with them in the slightest are entitled babies. Ultimately this comes down to what is better for the game - groups being insular and refusing to share class resulting in the loss of sales for the game, sales that the game actually does need, or groups being willing to be loose about who they give class to, despite the fact that the players behind the class may well not particularly enjoy the fact that their class is getting spread around a bit.

Erzsebet

Eh. A lot of the people -are- acting as though they're entitled babies.

You're not entitled to get all of the classes you want. I still don't think it's a huge ordeal to get Syssin class. A bunch of you have it. Hell, it's the only class I've ever bothered to multi-class with on any character. The only difficulties I've ever had getting Syssin class are -in- the guild itself. And I haven't actually bothered trying internally in a long time.

Rashar

I'd be greatly interested in knowing how you got the class all of those times, to be honest.

I would imagine a loooot of the people who got that class one way or the other did it through a person that they knew and are cool with, either on the character or through an alt. I'd be willing to bet that the number of people who got it via a skype or an aim message is far closer to half than a quarter.

The problem people have is when they -don't- belong to those cliques, and they -don't- know somebody OOCly that'll hook them up, or they -aren't- willing to take an OOC means whatsoever to get it.

Just throwing it out there. It's really, really easy to say you got the class with a bribe or RP. If only the real numbers shined, and we knew how many of those 'RP's or 'bribes' were people throwing an OOC favor into an IC bag and handing it over.

edit: That sort of sounded like I was accusing Erzsebet, and that wasn't my intent. I was sort of using your comment as an example, that's all.

Xavin

I'm just not seeing the 'entitled babies' thing, though. Let's remember, this is at its root a game. It's not an RPI, it's a role play encouraged game. Yes, we have a culture that encourages good roleplay. However, there -are- people that play primarily for the pvp in the game because it does offer a type of gameplay that you just can't find in modern day games. We're also not exactly friendly to the casual players - we often expect people to pour a lot of time and energy into the slightest of things. For the size of our playerbase, that's not good. We need to be doing everything we can to grow our playerbase, rather than shrinking it or throwing up roadblocks to player enjoyment.

Ultimately, we cannot hold the stance that class is something to be controlled tightly while at the same time holding the stance that we cannot permanently deny entry to people in our organizations - the later, by the way, being a stance that has been handed down directly by the admin.

Alexina

@Erzsebet, you're coming off as really condescending in your posts, both here and in the RAGE thread. I'm not really sure why you're trying so hard to make other people feel bad about their roleplay or their opinions or whatever, but I honestly think it's pretty poor form. In the way that you choose to express yourself, it seems like you think your particular style of playing the game is better than others', and that attitude really irks me. I'm sorry for derailing the thread, but I just think that sort of attitude is detrimental to the game. There's a constructive, positive, helpful way of providing feedback and criticism, and it is possible to remain polite even if something annoys you. I'd personally be pretty upset if someone dismissed my concerns with the game as 'you're just an entitled baby'.

On the topic of multi-classing:
I'd personally advocate a clearer administrative stance. As it currently is, there are groups of people who feel strongly about the separation of guild and class one way or another, but there's no real directive from the admin what sort of expectations they have for the multiclass system. At the moment, we're in some weird middle ground where guilds are tied to class and responsible for its distribution, but at the same time we have a system that encourages people to learn new classes without leaving their old guild. Access (or lack thereof) to certain classes have PK implications. Handing out class indiscriminately has RP implications. Denying class arbitrarily has problems of its own. I might be really selfish and unfair, but I sort of think it's up to the administration to solve the issues presented in this thread. Or at the very least acknowledge them.

Now, I actually think it's not a perfect solution for mobs to hand out class. The reason is that one of IRE's main draws has been player influence. We, the players, govern the world in so many ways. Moving away from this model should be done with great care and consideration. Another possible solution would be for non-guilded members to be able to train class. One suggestion would be that once you have spent 250 hours (or 300, or 500, or whatever a suitable number would be) in a class, you gain veteran status of that class and would be allowed to teach one other person the class (and just that one person). That's just one possible solution, and I'm sure there are dozens of other ways such things could be implemented.

Anyway, it is my firm belief that any character in the game should be able to learn any class in the game. If you are enemied to the guild, sort out the issues, do the tasks, talk to the people, and eventually learn the class. I think the game design is flawed for as long as people are unable to learn the class they want to learn.

Rashar

That's not a bad idea, @alexina, with maybe some tweaking. I think the numbers would have to go down - with multiclassing, 500 or even 250 hours on a class is a -lot-. I'm not sure about just one person, either. Maybe, or maybe like 5 people total in your life that you can teach in that way over any class. I don't even think that's cool because of the Syssin thing, either. I think that's genuinely a cool idea for RP.

Areka

I would be OK with that if guilds were given more of a mechanical leg/sanctioning meant anything/there were org-centered skills within the classes to elevate being in the organization or sanctioned by it versus full rogue/rogue trained.

Haven

It isn't just a Syssin issue guys. I feel like we're just ganging up on them at this point. The least we can do is the Certimene/Kelende upgrade but I'd rather pursue the more colorful options presented. Guild dynamic needs changing to compensate for the change in leverage for guilds if a full blown class NPC was implemented outside the scopes of the two Delos guys though.

Moirean

I think encouraging people to quit their guild, slip in through an NPC intended for newbies, cheese their way to gr 3 to get class, quit guild and rejoin their original guild is not really the most elegant and immersive solution out there for multiclass issues.

Aishia

I guess it's like, you gotta imagine it from the perspective of the least competent, uncharismatic, unconnected newbie in the whole game. Some people could charm/bribe/cajole their way into getting ANY class they wanted, regardless of any other factors. While being SO fresh is always an advantage, what about the little guy? It almost seems like neutral tether classes make more problems than they solve in this regard. Unless you've been a bad unicorn it's not hard to get a same tether class. But the opposite side people get their butts in a clench over not wanting THEIR HALLOWED SKILLS to LEAK INTO ENEMY HANDS. It's a pretty understandable perspective. Why give some jerk a dirk to stab you with? Beyond adding cross-side factions with those classes, the only other solution is opening the floodgates, which I hate. Or is it? Who can say. Maybe neutral tether classes should be able to apprentice regardless of guild? If those ones in particular are being deemed fit for both sides, maybe the opposite side shouldn't hold the key to the kingdom. I'm just making words with my fingerlings. You know, potatoes.

Toz

Iconsssssssssssssssssssssssssss


....To clarify, give guilded members slight mechanical edges in that class over non-guilded members. In Achaea, Icons are a +1 stat, or maybe a +10% lightning damage or +10% lightning resist, or whatever the guild decides to set it on. Here, up certain 'key' aspects to enhance the class, because they're the real deal. Not some knockoff, bargain bin rogue.

Examples:


Syssin
------
- 33% less end. loss while phased
- 10% more snipe damage
- +5% weaving effectiveness

Luminaries
---------
- Increased devotion regen, less spark used
- Ink-free shield painting
- Angels have slightly more power

Carnifex
-------
- Spinslash spinslash spinslash spinslash% spinslash
- Spinslash spinslash, spinslash
- spinslash spinslash spinslash spinslash

etc.

Xavin

I actually like those ideas, @Toz, however they would need to be balanced very, very carefully due to the nature of stacking bonuses.

Toz

Or just nerf the numbers. For instance, non-guilded Syssin take a -10% malus to snipe damage, lose 33% more end on phase, etc. And non-guild Carnifex get dizziness if they spinslash too much.

Moirean

Or you could do cheesier stuff like extra xp or crit or gold drops or whatever for guild members of x guild while they are in their guild's innate class.

Or cool RP options. Like, we've already seen that skill messages can be reskinned with style scrolls. What if guilded and non guilded had different messages for stuff? Maybe special RP mechanics/rituals that guilded members could do.

Also, bring in saction to give guilds the ability to grant apprenticed members access to certain stuff.

Give guilds a bit of power to flex by letting them hinder access to a certain thing or two for someone who has crossed them. Like if someone has Luminary class and pisses off the Luminaries, the guild can do a rite to make the person's spark burn lower so it takes them more spark to do stuff and spark regens slower. Piss off the Indorani and there's a chance the chaos lords attack you when you try to dominate. Etc.

Razmael

Yes, we acknowledge there's a problem with how this works currently. Aetolia is a game, and while roleplay is desirable, people should have fair access to the game's content.

Ultimately, I am not comfortable with pressuring guilds to hand out class and betray their roleplay in the process. That's unfair on them, and it means we need to offer other avenues of obtaining these classes.

If we do that, the new problem becomes that the guilds ultimately end up pointless, and that's also something we want to avoid.

We are discussing the situation internally, and working out a solution that would fit with our criteria. I don't have a specific timeline I can share for now, but it's a top priority and will be handled as soon as possible.

With that said, I think this thread has officially run its course, so I'm now closing it.