Class dispensing again

Xavin

It sounds like the conflict is you're thinking of non-guilded individuals who maintain the class as syssin. If that's the hold up, wouldn't the introduction of a few guild-only abilities help with shifting that line of thought? Would it be easier if you thought of people outside the guild as jumped up sneak thieves?

@Ingram to answer your question directly? Spireans? Yes, unless you have a legitimate reason to deny someone the class. Something more than 'we don't like how you asked'. At least, that's what other people have been told. Trying to be ultra-restrictive with a class is not healthy for the game.

You could come up with a procedure that people have to follow to get class, force a little roleplay on people that way. 'Oh, you want our abilities? Bring us something we can use. Information, secrets, etc.' There are so many ways you guys could go about this without making it hard to obtain the abilities outside the guild. And honestly, from what I hear it's not exactly easy to hit GR 3 in the guild.

Ingram

You should really take a breather, smoke a cigarette, or take a nap for a few, Rashar.

Ingram

Xavin said:

It sounds like the conflict is you're thinking of non-guilded individuals who maintain the class as syssin. If that's the hold up, wouldn't the introduction of a few guild-only abilities help with shifting that line of thought? Would it be easier if you thought of people outside the guild as jumped up sneak thieves?

That'd be cool, yeah.

Ishin

Moirean said:

They Syssin and Sentaari are in a fairly unfair spot - people from both sides want their class and it is innately a frustrating situation if the only way to get a "neutral" class is through breaking laws and sneaking around. Introduce a quest for the other side to get a reskinned version of monk/Syssin so everyone can focus on more fun things instead of bending over backwards to get class or witch hunts over who gave out class.

Yes pls. Because then we can keep to our RP and don't have to deal with a bunch of entitled bitches crying like fucking babies because we won't cater to them and their wants. Or, in fact, know what? Just put in an NPC where you can go to pick up your tether's classes. That way everyone is on fair and equal terms.

Moirean

Ingram said:

@Xavin‌
Ishin addressed that with the second paragraph. That's most the people who ask. Syssin class is roleplayed as intimate methods and secrets and abilities passed from Severn to his chosen, elite group of people. We should just toss it out to people because they're, what, Spirean? Spinesreach with its absolute absence of standard on who becomes part of it or gets let in. Or Bloodloch, who's relationship with Spines/Syssin is.. less-than-fond?

Because this is a game and people want to have fun. The Syssin class is fun to play. The Teradrim class is fun to play. The monk class is fun to play. Etc. When class is hard to get, people have less fun. Class distribution is a very meh focus of RP. It's heavily mechanical and putting extreme limits on it goes beyond just storytelling and cuts into someone's gameplay fun - you might be having fun RPing that, but someone else is sitting there going, well this sucks, maybe I'll go roll an alt/play another game.

Damonicus

In my best yellow colored speech, I think that is enough kids. Do not make me turn this car around.

Kerryn

What upsets me the most about neutral guilds is, our rp is heavily rooted to either be spirit or shadow aligned. Yet, ooc'ly our classes are neutral. Giving the false sense of entitlement to people, who believe we should ignore long standing rp to give them what they want. Our class.

Personally? It doesn't bother me that there are undead monks running about. What upsets and saddens me is that great guilds are basically being used as vending machines. Exploiting other players for gold and credits for a class they want. It makes for a very toxic environment, not just in the -game- but in the guilds. Every new member is treated with suspicion, because surely every convert is there to just join and hand out class to make some quick gold/credits or apprentice their friends, ignoring the guilds long standing purpose and roleplay. I grow tired of the witch hunts to try and find that 'corrupt' member. But IC'ly? I have to, it's the guilds rp and my character cares about her guild. So I'm a bit more lax in it, I require firm proof before acting, something that is nearly impossible to find. It also leaves the guild open to abuse by those who don't care about it or it's members. It also opens us up to our allies getting miffed at us because another enemy turned up with our teachings. "Aren't we for the Cycle/Light?"

I hate seeing people turn on each other over it. I tire of the arguments of "We'll you're a neutral guild, teach me even if I'm a vampire?" or "It's unfair that lifers have two monk guilds. Sentaari really should be dark." Without even knowing the guilds or the effort its members have put into making it a friendly and welcoming place. I want to preserve the -guilds- roleplay and see it flourish without such negativity hanging over it. I would love it if there was no tension of letting new players in, for fear they'll just apprentice people or are out to make some profit. New people are fun!

Darkie monks don't hurt the guilds roleplay. They are corrupt, just as much to be saved as every vampire in the game. I would be over joyed if admin put in steps to allow everyone, regardless of tether to get those neutral classes and helped ensure that the guilds had a means to move forward and preserve our roleplay. This would remove the tension, the witch hunts, the hate for not bending rp to accommodate people on either side but still allow people to play the classes they enjoy while allowing the -guilds- to SAFELY focus on their rp.

Xavin

Or instead of thinking of people as entitled bitches crying like unicorns babies, you could loosen up your hold on the class a little. You know, two way street.

Ingram

What @Kerryn‌ said.

Rivas

Moirean said:

The Syssin class is fun to play. The Teradrim class is fun to play. The monk class is fun to play. Etc.

Poor thing, you couldn't even pretend to add the Carnifex class to that.

Roux

I enjoy the Carnifex class. I mean... I class from RP standpoints, and I've had much much fun so far.

Rashar

I'm not sure if @ishin is referring to me, but if so you're kind of being ridiculous. There's no sense of entitlement here, and there's certainly not a lot of crying like babies. I understand that sometimes you aren't really all that capable of reading someone else's logical statements and not translating it somehow in your head as 'Disagree, they must be a bitch'.. but yeah. Try, sometime.

I think I'm probably way less upset about this than you think I am, Ingram. I was irritated yesterday. Today, I just wanted to throw some things out there.

Ishin

I wasn't talking specifically about you, @Rashar, it's just an ongoing issue here in Aetolia that's widespread.

Aarbrok

I honestly -really- like what @Daskalos‌ said about the make one for each side sort of thing, let the Organization keep its RP, ....another Monk monastery with the exact same skills as regular monks and different beliefs on the dark side, dont even have to code anything else save for a tutor and a hall.

I think the Dawnstriders did it right with the good aligned spies/ serpent class in Shallam in Achaea, who is to say we couldnt have that in Aetolia...

I mean it would make sense and cut down on the raaaaargvhgh!.

Its not that the skills themselves are a problem, its the fact its the opposing side encroaching on what is considered a dark or light themed guilds teachings. Which buggers all the RP.

Ranting on my lunch at work, Brokes out.

Xavin

Actually, I really feel like the attitude that one group or another deserves a monopoly on something as fundamental as a class is more a detriment to the game than any sense of entitlement amongst the game's players.

Moirean

Rivas said:

Moirean said:

The Syssin class is fun to play. The Teradrim class is fun to play. The monk class is fun to play. Etc.

Poor thing, you couldn't even pretend to add the Carnifex class to that.

JUST YOU WAIT A FEW WEEKS.

But see, that's actually a good example. The Carnifex and the vampire houses have been at odds for a long time, and we've denied several vampire houses membership and apprenticeship. Neron wants to join and so pokes Ezalor into a treaty - I see the looming revamp on the horizon and agree. Now we've preserved our RP stance and don't have to worry about people "stealing" class, because with a revamp LOTS of people will want class.

The Teradrim, in a similar situation, instead tried to gouge as many people as they could for credits when they got a revamp. The Syssin have turned down mutual apprenticeship treaties. I've long been against autoclass options and I think going through a guild is better RP, but lately it feels like players are being excessively restrictive. An ally who hasn't done anything wrong should be able to get class. A citizen of your guild's city should be able to get class. These things aren't happening and so I'm starting to think it'd be better to just toss in class NPCs and give it out like a vending machine.

Aarbrok

Even a questline for the Guild teachings would be cool.

Anyone remember the Panda Stance quest, its one of my favorites!
Hes a rogue Monk that teaches a special stance.

Could have a rescue mission where you infiltrate and break out a spy from a village prison, have him give you subterfuge as a gift, have to fight off mobs to get him out or do some questline..

Its a thing....IDEAS!

Erzsebet

Not that I particularly care much about which class is given on which side, but didn't we nuke the were guilds because we had too many? Haven't they slowly been changing things so that each guild has unique skillsets? Wouldn't creating new guilds that are just re-skins of each other re-create the same issues we've been aiming to fix?

Lim

I'll just add my two cents worth since I was denied Syssin class last night and this topic means something to me.

I've been denied Teradrim and Syssin class, and those two instances have been immensely disappointing. I've tried to suck it up and tell myself it's just part of the game. But to be honest, my first thoughts were - wow, these players obviously don't give a shit about my playing experience. Sure, if that is the role of the guild, so be it. But that's IC. It can be stringent at first instance. At the same time we know that in this game, in any role there is a grey area, where we try to steer things to a certain outcome because OOC reasons dictate it (e.g. let's think of a reason involve this darkie in our rescue Slyphe RP). There are some instances that RP binds you as a player, but in most situations, players dictate RP and find ways to fit choices into that RP without contradicting it. I think there's only so much 'it's our RP' can justify. I think this 'dgaf' attitude extends to players and how we treat one another as players. 'They're not in our guild, fuck them'.

The Admin need to weigh how many people they are pleasing in the guild by the guild withholding apprenticeships, against the number of people who are denied it. If there is more value added to the game by having this stringent 'no apprenticeship' policy, then by all means. My guess, however is that while it ingratiates a select group of people, it makes the game a whole less fun for many other people. Apprenticeships were put in for a reason. It was to allow people to play a class without having to be in the guild.

I know and respect the perspectives from both sides. I'm just very curious to know what the Admin think about it and where they are going to let the line be drawn.

Moirean

We're not asking for new guilds. We're asking for reskins of the class. Ie, if you're a lifer CLASS LIST shows INQUISITOR instead of SYSSIN, and the skill messages are like:

"You summon a burst of light to flood the surroundings - none may hide, under your watch." - lightflood, instead of darkflood

"You grimly concentrate on your righteous pursuit of the truth, as your body slips into a phase-like state to hunt down artificers." - inquisition, instead of phase

Basically, Inspector Javert, the class.

Roux

Does that mean we get a 'Throw yourself off this bridge' skill? I could dig that. Ain't no thief ex con gonna save me and get away without guilt!

Ishin

@Lim You broke into the guildhall twice and your character seemed utterly unrepentant both times. Why would we give you our class so you could, potentially, do it even more and do it easier?

Sorry, but no.

Erzsebet

As a Spirean Cabalist I found Syssin class pretty easy to get, personally? In my experience, this isn't as big of a deal as people seem to make it. Then again, my experience has been that it's much more of a pain in the rear to get class IN the guild than out of it, though I'm told that's less the case anymore.

ETA: Got ninja'd. But. RE: Javert the class. That makes next to no sense, considering it came from the same place. Like, maybe it sorta not really makes sense for some ex-syssin to give out a lightified version of the skills, but like. Daskalos already -has- the skills, as an example. In their darkified version. Why would they suddenly just change entirely?

Jensen

@Rashar the only reason you weren't enemied sooner is that I personally only enemy people who are a physical threat, unless directed otherwise. I was told on top of that to enemy people who are Eno leadership, and I try to keep up wit that. People found out that not only are you a legitimate syssin enemy but you are also part of enorian leadership, so you're enemied. Remedy those two and I will gladly unenemy you, otherwise deal with it.

Areka

I can count Templar's class-denials on one hand. For those people that we do not feel are ready for it, we provide tasks for them to perform (rooted in roleplay and less work than it would take to get to gr3 in the guild) to bring them up to speed so that the guild's values at least are understood and that the apprentice understands the why and what that is part of the classes's roleplay. There are a few cases where we have had people wait and reapply due to other roleplay things. This way even if we don't -like- a person, they can utilize our skills and we'll side-eye them and then PK them if they abuse them (verbal covenant agreed upon before apprenticing, IE "don't use these skills to do anti-light things or we will step in and there will be consequences").

In regards to Syssin, I understand both sides of the coin, however Syssin also have other motives that could be employed. Poor foolish lifers tying themselves to Severn and opening more gateways for his Artifice with the apprenticeship, etc. I'm 90% certain that was actually brought up IC with him and he did an Ursula laugh (poor unfortunate sooouls).

Classes are fun, extra classes are fun, but there is an entitlement line that needs to be considered - both for the guilds and those wanting classes.

In regards to @Lim's statement, "But to be honest, my first thoughts were - wow, these players obviously don't give a unicorns about my playing experience." - there is the aspect of guilds not considering the other peoples' point of views.

In turn, insisting and demanding class despite *valid IC reasoning for rejection* makes the applicant the one not considering/caring about the guild's playing experience and roleplay.

As with every other aspect of the game, a bit of self-reflection and consideration would help.

Lim

@Ishin‌ : That's a pretty horrible way to characterise it, bordering on misleading and disingenuous.

I get that you're trying to defend your stance and discredit anyone who opposes your view, but what I said in my earlier post, I'm directing more to others than to you. I don't expect you or your guild to change your minds.

Toz

I got monk for 50cr. I got Syssin class for free, or like 5k? And that was from @Zaephlyn or someone similar, who does not seem that fond of Toz ICly. Maybe though, IC actions have IC responses, and complaining to the forums won't get stuff done. If it's mechanics you want, yesplz discuss. If it's RP you want, kindly take that to aetolia.com port 23 and let us get back to our regularly scheduled rage.

Jensen

To be fair, Im in no way worried about Toz switching sides.

Ishin

Lim said:

@Ishin‌ : That's a pretty horrible way to characterise it, bordering on misleading and disingenuous.

I get that you're trying to defend your stance and discredit anyone who opposes your view, but what I said in my earlier post, I'm directing more to others than to you. I don't expect you or your guild to change your minds.

No, bro. You trying to paint it as something else is what's misleading and disingenuous. It is what it is, and it will always be what it is, so stop trying to call a sheep a goat.

Aarbrok

Everytime you call someone bro, I start to imagine Ishin, Faerah and Ingram like this...and the Syssin rassling federation is born.

...now im laughing at my desk.
Back to work...whoooosh!