Class dispensing again

Moirean

I suspect if stuff like this keeps cropping up, the end result will be entitlement, though, with people able to just do a quest or go via a NPC to get class.

Ingram

Toz said:

I got monk for 50cr. I got Syssin class for free, or like 5k? And that was from @Zaephlyn or someone similar, who does not seem that fond of Toz ICly. Maybe though, IC actions have IC responses, and complaining to the forums won't get stuff done. If it's mechanics you want, yesplz discuss. If it's RP you want, kindly take that to aetolia.com port 23 and let us get back to our regularly scheduled rage.

For the record, the way things were under Rou and Zae are -not- how things with the Syssin are now. So if anyone's clinging onto that idea, they should abandon it.

Jensen

I think if this gets too heated that monk will be tethered to light and syssin to shadow. Who's going to be happy?

Toz

Wrasslemania, @Aarbrok. 50 page derail inc. - where's Batista?

Aarbrok

....its comin...CAN YOU HEAR IT!

OOOOOOOH YEAAAAAAAAAH!

God I miss Batmonter!!!

Ishin

Aarbrok said:

Everytime you call someone bro, I start to imagine Ishin, Faerah and Ingram like this...and the Syssin rassling federation is born.

...now im laughing at my desk.
Back to work...whoooosh!

That's @Faerah on the right, I'm in the stars and shades, and that's @Ingram there in between us with that cute dress.

Ingram

The hottest one in the picture. Seems right.

Lim

Ishin said:

Lim said:

@Ishin‌ : That's a pretty horrible way to characterise it, bordering on misleading and disingenuous.

I get that you're trying to defend your stance and discredit anyone who opposes your view, but what I said in my earlier post, I'm directing more to others than to you. I don't expect you or your guild to change your minds.

No, bro. You trying to paint it as something else is what's misleading and disingenuous. It is what it is, and it will always be what it is, so stop trying to call a sheep a goat.

Just to clarify if anyone got distracted:

There are two 'break-ins' that Ishin is referring to.

First 'break-in' was to take a drunk love interest to the Syssin retreat to recuperate. She's a member of the Syssin.

Second 'break-in' was an AFK check on Ingram because he was sitting in the guildhall. Prism'd in, wings'd out. Was hoping for some interaction, but that ended in just the incident being reported to the leadership.

Both times were technical trespasses and entirely non-malicious.

It brings me back to the point made earlier. As players, should we try our best to find a reason to give a fellow player the class? Or find a reason not to?

Ingram

We should find a reason that's honest to our character and their beliefs.

Ishin

@Lim Trespassing in the guildhall is trespassing in the guildhall, man. It doesn't matter if you came in to afk-check Ingram. It doesn't matter if you brought a drunk love interest in. You. Don't. Belong. There. Period.

Lim

@Ishin‌ : Yeah, I'm not questioning your RP reasons or why you voted a certain way. If you firmly believe that there is no way for your characters would consider otherwise, so be it. If you firmly believe that you, playing the character, had no way for your character to consider otherwise, so be it.

I just hope to point out that when Ishin says:

Ishin said:

@Lim You broke into the guildhall twice and your character seemed utterly unrepentant both times. Why would we give you our class so you could, potentially, do it even more and do it easier?

Sorry, but no.

..the reality is not as harsh a picture as painted here. Subjectively to Ishin/his character, a trespass is a trespass is a trespass. Objectively and to others, there may be nuances that others might be open to consider. For example, when assessing a person's loyalty/intentions to a guild, it matters whether the break-in was malicious or not.

Xavin

Jensen said:

I think if this gets too heated that monk will be tethered to light and syssin to shadow. Who's going to be happy?

Not the people who will be stuck trying to figure out what to do about getting access to those essential group utilities to the sides that no longer have them.

Mephistoles

I've got to say, I agree with Ishin on this one. As someone who's been a guildmaster, I'd probably take any trespassing as a strike against you. I might not enemy you for it, but if you asked me for something like class? It would definitely come up.

As for the Teradrim, we had our own reasons. And I don't think it's quite fair to characterize it as "us not caring about your experience as a player". It's about your character's actions as a character. Not you as a player.

Ishin

@Lim - Just because Robin Hood robbed from the rich and gave to the poor, didn't make him any less of a thief.

Lim

Yeah. Each individual case can be explained away for some reason or other. And in each case it can even sound reasonable. 'A trespass is a trespass', or 'you haven't done anything special for the guild', or 'being a Spirean isn't enough'. These guilds are notorious for not giving out class. They have a reputation for it, and they have made many people unhappy about it (I assume). Why? Looking at the individual cases, it seems, in each case, reasonable to deny class. But when you look on a whole, you start to see a pattern. The reason is that decisions are made uncharitably in each case, where players are not even trying to see where they can plausibly relent. It grows to a stage where it even becomes a point of pride to deny a class to others. It grows to a point where players forget that other people are players too. Exclusion and exclusivity feels good, and it is easy to get carried away. It isn't 'ooc I'm sorry dude, I really can't figure out a way to give you class'. It's 'ooc sorry, my RP'.

Ishin

@Lim - If I saw a pattern of anything, it would be a pattern of Lim the character trespassing and then trying to come up with some bullshit reason as to why he wasn't really trespassing, but trying to do the Syssin a good deed, despite nobody ever asking him to do them.

Erzsebet

If there's a legit reason not to give class, that's on the person who did the thing creating the legit reason, not on the guild going lolno, you did X.

ETA: The onus is not on the class-dispensing organization to MAKE UP a reason to give you class. The onus is on YOU to 1) give a viable reason for them to give you class and 2) not do anything that might give them a specific reason to refuse to give you class.

Lim

@Erzsebet‌ : yeah, that's where we have a fundamental disagreement. There's 'by right', and then there's human decency. I firmly believe that we should always work together to accommodate the enjoyment of our fellow player. Whatever side they're on, even if its tough.

Erzsebet

I'm okay with having a disagreement there. An individual is not entitled to X class. As long as the guild/person you asked has a legit reason to deny class, I don't think they should be required to go out of their way to find an excuse to accomodate you anyway in spite of their (guild) RP.

Ingram

Lim said:

@Erzsebet‌ : yeah, that's where we have a fundamental disagreement. There's 'by right', and then there's human decency. I firmly believe that we should always work together to accommodate the enjoyment of our fellow player. Whatever side they're on, even if its tough.

It is my enjoyment as a fellow player for there to be consequences, weight, lasting effect.

Sometimes that means people don't get what they want.


To expand on this: Basically, if everyone gets what they want, or you just complain enough and receive what you want.. It hollows things out. Makes nothing that significant. The only viable option will be PK which isn't really significant in and of itself considering its consequences. Conflict is nearly meaningless, the only change or effect will be decided and enacted by admins with some player input. If everyone just caves or finds a work-around so everyone's happy, it's flat. I've played this game for the interesting, heavy interactions. The stories with consequences and results of a misstep or bad act on someone's part, living with it, getting vengeance or fixing it, blah blah, you get my point.

Parker

Isn't @Lim the one who also tried bribing a bunch of younger characters with 450 credits before actually putting in a request?

Faerah

Parker said:

Isn't @Lim the one who also tried bribing a bunch of younger characters with 450 credits before actually putting in a request?

That was a misunderstanding that happened when I was not around to stop silly things from happening.

Edit: That misunderstanding is also why I let him have an application at all, because I was initially just going to tell him no because he trespassed on Guild property.

Also, while I'm talking here (despite telling myself I wouldn't)... Part of the 'realness' and attraction of the IRE games to me has always been the immersion, the realism, how you can get pulled into the world and the character... The sense of danger, the sense of consequence, the sense of permanence, the sense of genuine (not artificially constructed) conflict. Aetolia seems really... Drained of that these days.

Moirean

Erzsebet said:

The onus is not on the class-dispensing organization to MAKE UP a reason to give you class. The onus is on YOU to 1) give a viable reason for them to give you class and 2) not do anything that might give them a specific reason to refuse to give you class.

Is it, though? This is a game that heavily advertises how great the classes are and how you can enjoy them via multiclass. Having to do elaborate things to get class really cuts into gameplay enjoyability, retention and profit. Now, I don't think that should be something players themselves should be concerned with, but it definitely should be something that the admin are aware of. Should making class dispensing relatively easy and painless be an admin goal? I think so. It makes the game more fun and active. Is class acquisition easy and painless right now? Obviously not in some cases.

A good system design would guide player leaders into doing this on their own. Our current system doesn't really do that, and that's not really the fault of the Syssin or the Sentaari or the Teradrim or whoever. A well-designed multiclassing system wouldn't really have room for this sort of debate - either the RP emphasis for guilds would be guided beyond just the class and its skills, or there would be some sort of mechanical alternative to going via guilds, or guilds were rewarded for sharing class.

For example, consider the following mock system. This is all just example stuff to illustrate a system:

- Guilds each have a measure of "influence".

- Having certain levels of influence unlocks certain abilities, for example:
----- guild with the highest level of influence in a city gets a vote for CL
----- guild with the highest level of influence in a city gets a portion of the city's credit kickbacks
----- holding # influence means you get a special NPC vendor visiting the guildhall
----- having # influence means all guild members earn % bonus xp when hunting together.

- Guilds can expand their influence by doing things like:
----- guild-themed quests in an area (eg Arbothia has a tree fallen across the path. Templars can hack it into firewood, Shamans can coax the earth to reclaim it, Carnifex can set it on fire and eat the villagers' souls, whatev)
----- guild kills (killstats)
----- having members earn things like honors lines
----- hunting together
----- emotes in the same room as other guildmates

- Influence can also be earned if someone IN YOUR GUILD'S CLASS is doing these things. The amount would be a fraction of the amount a guild member would earn doing it.

Now, with that above example system, not only do guilds have a really strong purpose and tons to do, guilds are ENCOURAGED to give out class because people using their skills helps their influence. The guild's identity isn't focused around just their skills, but their outlook and influence on the world. Players are encouraged, *BY DESIGN*, to share classes with each other, which is the complete opposite of the system we have right now.

Ezalor

For all the "make lifer Syssin" comments, again the problem isn't about sides. The class is pretty much denied to -everyone- regardless of side. Fits their RP of secretive spies and all, fine. The complaining and problems don't come from being against that RP, it's that it ties into mechanics so heavily. I know someone who wanted to buy credits for the class and PK with it but was constantly denied the class. They quit Aetolia shortly after.

Why not try a separation with class dispensers and giving guilds some extra small perk that only they can do. Like the Bloodborn rituals that only work with the shard and only work for guilded members. Guilded Syssin can be the only ones with access to phasesense or ability to make wormholes, Teradrim guild the only ones who can go to that place with all the Earthen dudes, etc. Would give the guilds some special reason to exist and ease the mechanical restrictions on class.

Moirean

@Ezalor, and then maybe have those skills (or some of them) be allowed via sanction! Tada, people can RP to earn sanction and there's still that 'this is our special thing you have to earn' RP opportunity.

Erzsebet

Is it, though? This is a game that heavily advertises how great the classes are and how you can enjoy them via multiclass. Having to do elaborate things to get class really cuts into gameplay enjoyability, retention and profit.

It is, and you can, they're not that hard to get. And if you're denied a class because of something -you've- done, that's on you. This constant shift of responsibility here is just weird. Not only is it on you, but the inability to get one specific class on a character does not render that character unplayable.

Is the reaction here really 'people will ragequit if they can't have every single thing they want'?

I get why the admin couldn't take this stance, but frankly with that kind of entitlement I'd as soon say 'good riddance'.

Ingram

Aetitlement.




@Ezalor‌
So basically they didn't get one thing they wanted and QQ'd. What a loss?

Lim

Parker said:

Isn't @Lim the one who also tried bribing a bunch of younger characters with 450 credits before actually putting in a request?

Yeah, basically Lim was told by one of the leaders that if he can find someone who gives out class illegally, he can keep it. I thought it was the 'do the guild a favour and you can get a class' thing that has been talked about, but it turns out, no. I'm actually really surprised and disappointed that this was not cleared up by leaders before the referendum, and that it has surfaced only now.

Ezalor

@Ingram I mean that's just how it is. This person plays Aetolia for PK and doesn't want to RP. Imagine if you couldn't get the ability to emote unless you played by my Aetolia and were forced to PK to get it. I imagine you'd quickly hop to another game too. No need to be an ass about it.

Mephistoles

Ezalor said:

For all the "make lifer Syssin" comments, again the problem isn't about sides. The class is pretty much denied to -everyone- regardless of side. Fits their RP of secretive spies and all, fine. The complaining and problems don't come from being against that RP, it's that it ties into mechanics so heavily. I know someone who wanted to buy credits for the class and PK with it but was constantly denied the class. They quit Aetolia shortly after.

I've got to say, this does sound like a problem. The game can't be tailored perfectly to everyone's wants and needs, but if it's losing sales, it's something I'd be concerned about if I were in @Razmael's position.

This is consistent with what people have been telling me today. That syssin just won't apprentice anyone. I can't say if that's true or not, but it's definitely what I've been hearing in the game.