Class dispensing again



  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander Portland
    edited July 2014
    Emelle said:

    revamp guild structure so they function as collectives of individuals with like-minded ideologies and different spheres of influence in the game.

    The nice thing about having a pretty sub-par class is that's what Carnifex kinda did. We're all about the soldier stuff, the Keep, etc, and the class only served as a jumping-off theme, since we were aware that it was unpopular. I really like how that turned out. Everyone has their own twist on stuff - for example, Satomi melds warhounds and terramancy to form sand hounds. Toz uses a hammer in every single class. Bakhtuh does weird crazy stuff with souls and necromancy. The guild's focus is on the overarching goal of making the world strong to fight against the true enemies out there (eg Shadowmother, Dreikathi, etc)- and the thing is, that's entirely doable for every guild.

    The Infernals had the militant structure already and the swap to Carni really hammered home the whole cull the weak stuff. It was a natural progression for the guild to evolve into a military organization and 3 new rooms, some RP and a warhorn later, we really had it cemented down that this is what we do, this is who we are, these are our goals - and while the skills provided the theme, they didn't define things. It doesn't take a lot to reinforce what your organization's outlook is, and it's entirely doable for players to move beyond just skills to define their guild.

    tl;dr - nerf the other classes so the guilds can experience the joyful fun we've had!

  • Daskalos said:

    Ilyon said:

    We just approve pretty much everyone in Bloodborn, because I really have better things to do than trying to dictate how others should play the game. Over the last two years there was I think one rejection, and even that was a "we'll approve you after you fix X" deal (and the person ended up approved in the end).

    This is how it is in the Luminaries. As long as you're not a guild enemy (7 total) or an enemy of the city we pretty much hand it out.
    Likewise, this is what the ascendril do. I don't think we have ever completely rejected someone who wanted class. Pretty much the only way that you would get told no is if you're a guild enemy or had been a member of the guild previously and seriously messed something up.

  • Comparing Syssin to any other class is really disingenuous. Syssin is much like the veil artifact. The more people who have it, the less value it has for those who do. If everyone has Syssin, the utility skills literally have no value. This is a short-falling of having a rogue/spy class in a multiclass system. In Achaea, all sides had Serpent (the Syssin-like class) but there was a limit to the amount of people who had it because you had to commit to the class, or not.

    Here, if everyone could have Syssin, we might as well just not have an organization that RPs being spies or assassins because there's literally nothing that separates the Guild members from everyone else who can do those things too. If you guys want to play a Syssin so terribly, join the Guild on your main or make an alt in the Guild. There are ways for every player to access the class, but the problem is that no one wants to make any sacrifices for their RP/gameplay and instead, basically demands, that the Syssin sacrifice their RP/gameplay to accommodate what can only be phrased as "entitlement."

    Further, when we do run referendums - no one tries to talk to any of the members to influence their vote. No one tries to offer anything of value to the Guild ("an ally" is not something of value to the Guild when that character has literally has had no other contact with the Guild). They just submit, typically, a paragraph saying they want class and we run the referendum. Taygeta got class from us legally, because she helped us track down who was giving quite a few people who didn't even bother with the referendum the class. Kelliara got approved for class legally because she actively helps us train our novices and actually behaves like an ally to the Guild in action, not just in words. It isn't impossible, but if a player doesn't come to the table with anything but 'lol I want to PK' or 'I really want to spy' I'm not sure why they expect to get class. In real life, you typically cannot just want something and therefore be entitled to it without effort. But that seems to be the type of people who apply for Syssin and get upset when they get denied.

    Truthfully the "I want it and I'm a player of the game so I should get it" attitude is toxic. Not just with this situation - in general. The whiners get what they want and the players who actually want an engaging game quietly leave for elsewhere. I was recently trying to coax a dormant Syssin combatant back into playing, and he literally said that the whining, rageqq and entitlement on Aetolia makes playing other games more fun. He's not wrong.

    I don't really know what the Admin intends to do about the situation, or if they intend to do anything about it other than let us vent, but it's really clear that there are two entirely different mindsets talking past each other here. One side is arguing that players should be entitled to whatever they want because it's a game, and the other side is saying that in order to create a compelling multi-player game, sometimes players shouldn't get what they want all the time. You lose players either way.
  • Faerah said:

    a long post

    This post is everything that is wrong with class dispensation in Aetolia well typed out and presented.

    Thanks for making it abundantly clear that npcs handing out class is probably the best solution to this whole issue.
  • Faerah said:

    Comparing Syssin to any other class is really disingenuous. Syssin is much like the veil artifact. The more people who have it, the less value it has for those who do. If everyone has Syssin, the utility skills literally have no value. This is a short-falling of having a rogue/spy class in a multiclass system.

    Could you elaborate on how other people having Syssin skills devalues Syssin utility?
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in Attica
    Funnily enough, the attitude of 'if you want the class so bad, just join the guild' doesn't really fly. I've seen the guild requirements for GR3 in the Syssin for regular novices, and the requirements are kind of a lot to ask for someone that's new to the game. The requirements for people who AREN'T novices are even worse. I've been shown requirements of several different guilds, but the Syssin by far make you jump through the most hoops. And even if you're in the guild? If you're even suspected of being just in it for the class, you get booted or get held back from advancing.
  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker Virginia
    edited July 2014
    Phoenecia said:

    Funnily enough, the attitude of 'if you want the class so bad, just join the guild' doesn't really fly. I've seen the guild requirements for GR3 in the Syssin for regular novices, and the requirements are kind of a lot to ask for someone that's new to the game. The requirements for people who AREN'T novices are even worse. I've been shown requirements of several different guilds, but the Syssin by far make you jump through the most hoops. And even if you're in the guild? If you're even suspected of being just in it for the class, you get booted or get held back from advancing.

    I've removed something here because it's entirely unnecessary. C'mon, you know better than that. - Slyphe

    Nobody's been held back, either. Not one single person who put the work in. We, in fact, just had someone else finish up the requirements for GR3. Like has been mentioned before, a few people have brought up legit points to us, and things have been added/changed/made better in order to make progression better. I would say I'm sorry you don't like it, but...

    As far as your question, @Lim, hood is great for hiding so long as not everyone has a hood. If everyone has a hood, actually -having- a hood is useless. It's also along the same lines as, 'If everyone can do what James Bond does, what's so special about James Bond?'. The answer is nothing.
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    -Benjamin Franklin
  • Yeah, if the argument being used is 'These skills have inherent value and every person with them devalues that', then maybe something is wrong with the class and their inherent utility skills shouldn't be as useful as they are.

    What you need to keep in mind that as nice as phase is for your roleplay, it's also a fundamentally required group pvp skill. Consider that abduct is the single most useful tool for disrupting and enemy refining ability. It was amazingly useful during war pvp, as well, since it could be used to remove the troop commander from combat.

    The other utility skills don't really lose value. Who cares if people can worm sources or worm warp without the vibrating stick.

    It sounds like a case of an org wanting to be special snowflakes with their skills and not being willing to adapt to the modern metagame.

  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker Virginia
    Xavin said:

    Consider that abduct is the single most useful tool for disrupting and enemy refining ability.

    Touch shield.
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    -Benjamin Franklin
  • Faerah said:

    Comparing Syssin to any other class is really disingenuous. Syssin is much like the veil artifact. The more people who have it, the less value it has for those who do.

    Your class has a powerful sneak skill, phase. Your class is not so special that it cannot be compared to any other class, nor does your class deserve special consideration because of your trans skill.

    Also, it sounds like you just gave a very OOC motivation for denying your class to others. That it lowers the value of it, which you compare to the veil artifact. If you are actually denying the class for OOC reasons, that needs to stop. No one should be denying class for OOC reasons.
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher
    Why would we then hand out class for ooc reason? We vote, nobody in the guild wants to hand out class.
  • Hi, @Parker here, the one @Ishin mentioned about just getting GR3.

    To clear up the air on the bit about requirements, which I don't believe has any place in this discussion, they're not hard. I've been around long enough to know that they're maybe more difficult than some other guilds, although I don't know each and every single guild's requirements. Regardless, they're not that bad - and the last time this all came up, a few days ago? A week? @Faerah took the time to add more options to how to complete said requirements. Almost all of the tasks/missions/whathaveyou are very simple if you want them to be - combatants probably have the easiest time of the group. The way the GHELP is set up may LOOK like a lot, but in actuality it's not too bad.
  • Jensen said:

    Why would we then hand out class for ooc reason? We vote, nobody in the guild wants to hand out class.

    I never said you would. The point is that you shouldn't deny class for OOC reasons. You also shouldn't hand it out for OOC reasons. Faerah just said
    Comparing Syssin to any other class is really disingenuous. Syssin is much like the veil artifact. The more people who have it, the less value it has for those who do.
    That is an OOC reason to deny the class to other people, because you think it makes it less valuable. And denying a class for an OOC reason is unacceptable.
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher
    I fail to see how that's ooc. We view our skills as valuable and our guild is less useful if more people can do what we do. A decent chunk of our players wanted to RP as blades for hire, assassins, or infiltrators. Hard to do when nobody has contracts for the syssin since guess what? everyone has the class.
  • yeah, lets just agree to disagree. Unless admin want to do something, I dont see this going anywhere
  • The thing is, the cat's already out of the bag there, @Jensen. Enough people have the class on both sides of the game that you're probably not going to get too many people handing out contracts to the syssin for that sort of thing because why do that when they have someone who will do it cheaper/for free/they can do it themselves.

  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander Portland
    I don't see why assassins and spy stuff is exclusively something for the Syssin class, nor do I see why the guild becomes pointless because the class is common. Like I said before, my GWHO can be full of people in Teradrim and Indorani, but we don't stop being soldiers. The world can be full of people with the Carnifex class, but the guild still has a very distinct identity.

    If class skills are defining your guild to the point that others having them are hurting your organization's identity, then it sounds like you guys might benefit from adjusting where the focus is.
  • A good spy isn't defined by his having ability, it's defined by how well he/she uses it. Checking tattoos for bell, checking inventory for eye/firefly, or using supplementary abilities and artifacts to do it from out of the room, etc. There are checks and counter-checks to successful spying. It's not as easy as having a skill, it's being able to deploy it. In many cases, it's pure luck.

    No one should claim a monopoly on something as fundamental a dimension of the game as spying. Luminaries don't keep a stranglehold on angel mindread, or telepaths on sapience and listen. That there are other people with the ability to phase does not detract from your ability to play your role, or play it better than them. And it certainly does not justify hamstringing them just because you want to unfairly dominate a field by being the only player in town.

    If you want to contract kill, learn to fight. If you want to trade in information, have some to offer - send tells to people asking if they want to know something that you think will be valuable to them. Be good at your job. Focusing your energy on trying to kill off competition is sad and, quite frankly, repulsive.

    I hope you guys find a way to define yourselves that isn't tied to your class abilities. The Syssin deserve something a bit better than 'those guys who can phase'.
  • StathanStathan Hot springs
    I've got an assortment of alts to test the waters of a class and generally get a feel for it before I attempt to try and get it added to the list of classes I have. Currently (mostly due to funding issues) Stat has Templar and Sentaari, and everyone bloody well knows I main Sentaari. Most of the time Templar is just something I throw out to help a friend test their offense against the class.

    Now, the class distribution issue that everyone is having. I'm going to go on record right now saying I've given out class all of maybe 3 times. Once to a lifer and the other maybe two times were to Darkies for 1 very important IC reason. Stat likes a challenge. There is no one in the guild that challenges him monk vs monk so he will find outlets elsewhere. He doesn't feel what he's doing is wrong in the aspect that he's not giving out the teachings of the Sentaari, he's merely spreading the skills about, and without the teachings the skills are meaningless. Anyone can do it, doesn't mean they do it right.

    The Syssin guild doesn't want to hand out class? Fine, the same mindset can be applied. They are afraid ICly that someone will do it better than they. (yes, I'm aware that isn't likely the actual reasoning but from an outsider standpoint it can be logically thought out.)

    Basically, until the Admin actually step in and say "This is how it's going to be, no ifs ands or butts" there will always be 1 or 2 people who find a way to secret class out and there will always be people complaining that they weren't one of the 2 people chosen every, what, 12 days or something, to get class? You can give out class all of twice a month on average, and twice each time. You can't make it known that you are considering it because then you're a target for your own guild and a flood of people wishing to get class. That's where the bribery comes down to. I accepted a bribe that was offered before I even considered giving out class because the logic behind it. "Take the credits and give them to the guild." I didn't, but that's what was posed to be. Now chances are when I can get some income flowing I'll go back and donate the credits I got in total for obvious reasons.

    I can logic out every reason possible for giving out and for denying class, that doesn't make any one standpoint right or wrong. It just means I can logically see points given for requesting the class. Doesn't mean I'll agree and apprentice you, but it means I'll consider it, which is more than you can ask for now a days.
  • AngweAngwe I'm the dog that ate yr birthday cake Bedford, VA
    I'm just gonna point out I really, really, really like @Moirean's concept for an inquisition-type Syssin spin-off.

    Riffing off that, imagine if you will,

    Under mysterious circumstances, the Syssin and Sentaari guilds broke apart, the members either dispersing into other guilds or disappearing from the public eye. Soon enough, people notice a change in Enorian.

    An elusive presence has infiltrated itself into the guilds of Enorian. Zealous warriors with mysterious abilities and an uncertain purpose have begun appearing on the streets, watching the common man with hard, calculating eyes. Members of other guilds, indeed, are being approached and recruited, promises of a holy inquisition filling their ears.

    Though considered members of many guilds, these people stand apart, reporting on the actions of guildmates and citymates to a central inquisition so unassailable, even the Heralds are unsure of their identities and actions. All that is known is that their authority is not to be questioned.

    How it would work is that each side's Syssin would have a sort of inter-org they can chose to interact with, with it's own channel. Not exactly a guild, but a sort of link. I'm imagining these ultra-stiff, pious-as-hell dudes, kinda characterized as how the most gung-ho of Imperial Officers and Agents are characterized in SW:TOR.

    The Shadowy Syssin would have their own thing, maybe a cult loyal to Severn or something? IDK, Moi or Syssin leadership would prob'ly have cooler ideas on that.
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander Portland
    I will not confirm or deny if such a thing already exists. >_>
  • AshmerAshmer Barefoot Adventurer Life

    the way she tells me I'm hers and she is mine

    open hand or closed fist would be fine

    blood as rare and sweet as cherry wine

  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosoms
    Belatedly - Templar process is you write a letter to the GM or a secretary (which everyone slacks on and is essentially just 'give me your skills because I think they're interesting' despite what's asked for, but it's cool, not going to overly force folk to RP what they don't want to). We post it to the Knighted guild members (gr5+) who have a maximum of 3 RL days to investigate, ask questions, go talk to the person, deliberate, and vote. These votes fall into categories, though the first one is by far the most frequent:
    - Yes, they're ready now, apprentice them.
    - Yes, but only after X, Y and Z are reinforced.
    - Not at this time, they are lacking in P and Q areas, and doing these tasks: (usually a combination of some of the following: reading up on seluno brothers, syvelium, triad of angels/duamvi and being able to give their thoughts and understanding of the content's meaning, not just regurgitate the stories, doing something that demonstrates Templar's three Duties (Service: To guide, protect, to understand/seek Truth), partake in a forge demonstration that links understanding templar honour and expectations of the skills while making the weapons that will be used, respect the tools as they are extensions of the self, and so on).
    - Not at this time, the convert/repeated problematic offender is too new and we need to see how they settle in and behave in action, not just unproven promises of good behaviour (usually, but not always, comes with a set date for when can reapply).
    - No (due to law breaking, deception/trying to circumvent the system, repeatedly being an issue, etc).

    Regarding Syssin: Yes, having Phase more spread out in the populace can cheapen the skill by spreading its power. However, this does not render the guild pointless or without value or mean it has no purpose to continue existing. While it is one of the more problematic organizations with the guild being built literally on top of the skills and Severn (which makes it more difficult to navigate changes), does not mean that that is all that the guild has.

    I am of mind that guilds need to be reconsidered and agree with much of @moirean's type of proposed system alterations, and given tools and treats and such that gives them a mechanical leg to stand on that isn't class, as well as reinforces the importance of the skills in the guild (guild-only skills that reinforced that the guild's better than rogue, etc). Guilds need a mechanical leg otherwise they become glorified clans, but with multiclass and game culture, class shouldn't be that solitary leg.
  • I still want to go on record one last time as saying that my complaint had absolutely nothing with how my acquisition of the class, or the consequences that occurred from it, was handled. I feel like people are under the impression (and I have had several broach the topic to me as if they were) that this was a source of any frustration to me. I have absolutely zero problem with how the Syssin as a whole or individually handled it, except for maybe the part where becoming unenemied is basically impossible.

    Just throwing that out there for my own edification.
  • FanicoFanico the Duiran
    I was thinking it would be easier to "solve" the whole acquiring syssin skills without the Syssin compromising their RP. Maybe there can be this rare NPC that is far more random than the apparently anticipated foci sightings. An NPC that is a rogue syssin and has complaints or grudges against the guild for whatever "slight" he/she feels was endured. So from time to time he shows up, and if you find him, he swears you to secrecy and teaches you the skill. If a syssin finds him, of course they want him dead. It should be so IC that it's NOT spoken of by anyone where they have seen him or "met" him. Even if he shows up in the bath house of Enorian, once someone learns the skill, he scurries off, he doesn't "want" to be found by the syssin. He can have this whole RP surrounding himself while looking over his shoulder and listening intently..a crafty and very wary NPC.
    Maybe the cost is crazy high. He does have expenses on the run. That sort of a thing. The same with monks.
    I can fully understand that their RP in both guilds is harder if people (their own citymates or allies) feel they are giving "enemies" or even "frienemies" their skills, and a lot of pressure is put on these guild leaders, it's really not fair to them.
    This gives more RP to the guilds to keep an eye out for this "rogue" teacher. People run a chance on finding him to learn the skills. The "rogue" teacher leaves after teaching one person, so maybe he's not seen again for a few RL days. The cost is high, and you can't kill him and get back your gold because he leaves immediately to who knows where. Maybe he teaches all of the "neutral" classes, or maybe all of the classes. The way the code handles multi classes would still come into play and so even if you played a Daru you "could" learn Indorani but you won't be able to use it, although that's some weird RP, it's certainly not unheard of.
    I personally wouldn't want the skill, but maybe a shopkeeper would love it to stock venoms, I know that for a while the sentinels had this skill and no longer have it, and for a LOT of years a syssin guild leader (I miss you Mahakala) was very stingy with a nice venom called gecko, and I feel he played his role well by supplying both sides.

    Anyways, that's my idea as a solution to the perceived "problem" of acquiring "neutral class skills" without compromising anyone's RP. It's a solution that can "add" RP to the game even.
    They did WHAT to druids?

  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight School

    Oi vey. I wasn't going to respond beyond my just grit teeth and bear it remarks due to how the last discussion ended but after some of these last posts it feels like the main principle behind the autoclass argument has been lost/buried/ignored/twisted in this discussion.<br><br>

    Before I'm dismissed and accused of stamping my feet and whining because I'm not getting what I want, I want to throw out this disclaimer: I have Syssin on my main character (several alts actually) and have brokered many deals to get other people class (Daskalos and at least 3 others).  I've had it since the first week (maybe even day) that multi-class even came out. Across any of my alts, I have never been denied any class I had the desire to pursue and have not paid a single dime to obtain them. So, no. My complaint does not stem from me not getting what I want. I'm against players having this stranglehold on class because it's fundamentally flawed and wrong. Period. When I first voiced my concern about this issue after it was brought to my attention after an incident with a friend in the Atabahi, I thought it might have been an administrative oversight but I'm now I'm not so sure. I can't for the life of me understand why they'd intentionally want it this way. Maybe they just haven't gotten around to it as there are more pressing issues on their plate. No idea, can't speak for them or their policy.<br><br> The reason why it's wrong is the very same reason why guilds cannot indefinitely bar someone from joining. The same reason why guilds cannot make pre-guildrank 3 requirements too difficult or stringent. Because (and we prove it time and time and again.  Just have a look at this thread.) people can be and are inconsiderate and or shitty to unreasonable degrees and thus, to preserve basic rights(and yes, choosing the class you desire for your character provided by the gamemakers is your right and yours alone), alternative methods to bypass this is required. A sad and unfortunate truth, but people can't always be trusted to do the right thing.<br><br>

    I really wish this discussion could move on to exploring fun, innovative,  and engaging solutions to this problem but the vast majority (largely the privileged) can't or won't recognize the problem and thus dismiss/drown out what is said. The first step to solving any problem is recognizing that there is a problem.<br><br>

    Before multiclass was implemented, Kelende and Certimene served as our reasonable fail-safe. If people rejected you regardless of the reason, you could always go to those NPCs and join the organization anyway to get the class desired (they basically served the autoclass function we're asking for to be reinstated with the pre-GR3 requirements working like a "quest"). We lost this fail-safe because now they're unreasonable as the NPCs are still set to the pre-multiclass era where they require you are completely classless before helping you since you could only hold 1 class at any given time then. Granted, you could only do this once per organization,  it was still better than what we got now. <br><br>

    Can we please upgrade Kelende and Certimene by removing the classless restriction to match the new environment at the very least? If they're upgraded, it'll be enough to settle this issue because you could then just get GR3 and leave if you so desired without having to dump all other classes first or originate in desired guild.

    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander Portland
    I don't see how that would help at all. It would just make people quit their existing guild and face being booted by the new guild (and people DO boot people who join via Certimene).
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