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Sure sounds like they shouldn't be leaders, then. After all, leaders are meant to usher their orgs through the era - not plant their feet in and hope they can get away with starving a guild out of its intended RP/culture. People who forcibly keep an organization rooted in the past (and in this case, that past is kind of a fabrication) do not belong in leadership.

I disagree with this. If a leader doesn't like the "intended" RP, they are not required to push that RP. They should not push it in the complete opposite direction, because that's likely to confuse and annoy newbies, members, peers, and admin alike, but the HELP file is not the final word on guild RP. It is, however, incumbent upon them to push things somewhere specific and appealing to their membership.

Org cultures on the level we are discussing are handed down by admin. If their intention for the org isn't the correct one that you should be following, then whose exactly is?

If they aren't down with what the admin intends for their org, they shouldn't be the one steering the ship. That's like working in cargo delivery and complaining that you have to deliver your goods to a town you don't like. You signed up to do the delivery, so do it or let someone else have the job.

I'm not sure how the Teradrim Aren't Warlike ethos ever survived; their entire foundational lore is that they're the jailors of some of the most dangerous entities to ever exist (Both the Sorcerer-Kings and Baugluckgluck9000), as well as protectors of the Pillars in general, which are more less so important to Sapience (at least from their perspective, and their lore seems pretty substantive when it comes to veracity) which kind of has an inherently violent subtext to it. Jailors aren't peaceful entities, and basically can only do their job under the contstant threat of physical force. Same for guards of something so important. Security guards of important things generally will shoot you dead if you try to mess with what they're guarding.

That's all ignoring the undead thing, which is kind of inherently...aggressive, if not overtly violent, in the sense that it stands opposite to the Cycle, and basically is an ever-present standing challenge to the established order of nature.

If anything, I think that the Earthcaller lore was introduced to make this mandate more explicit, and to make some of this Warrior-prone philosophy more clear. It's definitely not out of left field, and anybody who thinks that the themes of the Teradrim weren't that of violent warriors hasn't been paying attention.


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More on topic, though, I think every guild should listen to the experiences of new members and should be ready to change stuff if it's not working. The Carnifex, while a version of a Decently Healthy Guild, also is not perfect by any means. Cultivating the player experience of the guild has been more or less an ever-evolving process, and any guild that falls asleep thinking that they're Perfect or Done doing that sort of thing is basically asking for the guild to fall to pieces. In fact, the overall dip in numbers aside that happened last year, you can pretty much trace dips in the Carnifex numbers directly with periods of leadership checking out in some way (this happened quite a lot in 2020 and 2021, and I don't blame a single person for it.) Ebbs and flows are definitely just a thing that will happen in a guild over time--but if you find that you're All Ebb and No Flow, something's wrong with your org and you better start looking into it.

However, if you see "leadership" not pushing RP you want, and are stymied in efforts to push that RP from a non-leadership position, you should consider leadership for yourself.

This is ostensibly a good suggestion, but there are definitely organizations that are in a place where they trickle out new members at a steady-but-slow-enough rate (their outflow numbers probably don't actually look all that bad on paper in this sense), so they never build any real equity in the org, and so when elections come up, there's never a real change, because everyone who's a newbie has bailed ages ago so they can better spend their time doing something Actually Fun. All that ends up remaining, therefore, is 90% of the status quo that got the org there in the first place, 5% of people who want to maybe change it, and 5% who don't care either way (and therefore usually vote for the status quo).


"If you don't like it, take charge" only works in a system where the orgs are healthy enough that people stick around in any number reasonable enough for voting while also caring enough about the org's health to keep tabs on that sorta thing.

I have always viewed a guild as an rp contract, we are agreeing to a theme to all center around. I feel what being a Teradrim is about was lost somewhere down the road. I had an ooc conversation with a Teradrim leader recently were it was pointed out that Teradrim have not always been warlike and that this 'new take' is modern artifice. And some of the membership(leaders) do not like that more 'modern' view. But from my reading of rather old books and checking older news posts "Strength!" has been our thing for long time. Teradrim are kin to the Earthen which war constantly amongst themselves. We should be an Earthen tribe that comes in an avalanche of religious fury, stone, gore and blood. Instead of whatever weird thing we have currently become. None of this takes PK! But PK should always be encouraged and supported. But you can still represent the guild by just having decent rp and understanding our theme.

I do believe the anti-Carnifex sentiment in our guild is pure jealousy and projection.

so like, anyways, uh, there are far worse things that could happen to a guild than becoming "like the Carnifex." maybe give it a try?

[...] I'm not saying you need to be the Carnifex, but you should certainly be looking at why that is and seeking to emulate it in ways applicable to your org where possible.

A guild doesn't become and stay large out of coincidence. A guild does not become or stay small out of coincidence, either. You both are absolutely correct that smaller or less active guilds could learn a thing or two from larger ones like the Carnifex. When the Sentinels were in a spot of trouble, I made an alt in the Carnifex to understand what was going on inside that made you guys so effective and popular. My hope was that I would see something you were doing that I could emulate or get some ideas from. Lo and behold, I had a lot of healthy takeaways that I ended up bringing before the rest of the guild leadership in modified manners.

It sounds like people are unwilling to take that wisdom from the Carnifex specifically because it is the Carnifex providing it, which is petty and has no place in an organization struggling to maintain health and culture.

I have always viewed a guild as an rp contract, we are agreeing to a theme to all center around.

Absolutely, without a doubt. In addition, my belief is that the more prominently you are displayed on a guild's HELP file, the more you need to act as a living, breathing embodiment of that guild's intended RP. It's clear what the admin intends for the Teradrim - so the leadership in question needs to step up and begin acting that out instead of resisting it. My opinion has always been that the core role of a guildmaster is to be an absolute example of that 'intended RP' in all ways, not just the ways you happen to like. This allows people to take cues and put their own spin on things while understanding the boundaries and necessity. Without an example, nobody really understands how to fulfill the social contract of guild roleplay - or, they need to struggle for other ways to get that example.

[...] I had an ooc conversation with a Teradrim leader recently were it was pointed out that Teradrim have not always been warlike and that this 'new take' is modern artifice. And some of the membership(leaders) do not like that more 'modern' view. [...]

Sure sounds like they shouldn't be leaders, then. After all, leaders are meant to usher their orgs through the era - not plant their feet in and hope they can get away with starving a guild out of its intended RP/culture. People who forcibly keep an organization rooted in the past (and in this case, that past is kind of a fabrication) do not belong in leadership.