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Re: Talking About Tethers
Hard disagree. I actually LOVE the idea of the "good guys" committing atrocities in the name of the light. That's actually really rad.
Aetolia is not meant to be "Good vs Evil", we are "Spirit vs Shadow."
Are there people who lean towards Good in the Spirit tether? Sure. But there are more than a few characters in Spinesreach who would, too.
Not all Spirit characters are intrinsically good, just as not all Shadow characters are intrinsically evil.
Example: Sibatti leans more towards evil than good, if you were to stack up her morals and compare them side by side. She hates undeath but thinks Sciomancers aren't fundamentally a bad idea. She hates slavery but probably wouldn't think twice about killing an innocent. To her, the "Good" parts are what benefit Duiran/Dendara, and a little bit herself.
Aetolia is not meant to be "Good vs Evil", we are "Spirit vs Shadow."
Are there people who lean towards Good in the Spirit tether? Sure. But there are more than a few characters in Spinesreach who would, too.
Not all Spirit characters are intrinsically good, just as not all Shadow characters are intrinsically evil.
Example: Sibatti leans more towards evil than good, if you were to stack up her morals and compare them side by side. She hates undeath but thinks Sciomancers aren't fundamentally a bad idea. She hates slavery but probably wouldn't think twice about killing an innocent. To her, the "Good" parts are what benefit Duiran/Dendara, and a little bit herself.
Sibatti
8
Re: Talking About Tethers
Spirit has a solid foundation that stands upon solidarity, unity, and teamwork which is -why- they are so successful. Sure, they have Sunder that accounts for 99.9% of their ability to form large groups when it comes to PVP (not knocking it, yall are doing awesome and I miss fighting against y'all) but they are also (from the outside looking in) generally more accepting of people who want to just be like "Hey, I have a stick. I 4 can smack people too?"I'm annoyed by this post and I should probably let it lie, but after your web rant last night, I can't. You have been Sunder's biggest detractor, to the point of having multiple people having to tell you to shut up and/or leave web. You have also been Spirit's biggest detractor, going on rambling conspiracy theory rants about their actions/behaviour whenever you get the chance in web, to the point of having multiple people tell you to shut up or leave web. Your web rant last night was a convoluted conspiracy theory about why Spirit gets away with certain PK actions and then pretending you were right in the face of multiple people laughing you down. And when someone finally had enough and lashed out, you refused to back down or remove yourself from web, instead antagonizing them for being fed up with your constant negative and toxic behaviour. You have a lot of nerve coming to the forums and pretending you're some bastion of reason when you're constantly like this.
Shadow has this mentality of putting on assless chaps and being like "Come get some" and then tearing each other down under the guise of "constructive criticism". This is further seen when people decide they want to demoralize and attack people for not participating, because they cant/won't code in some support thing, or because they don't like a specific group of people. This is toxic behavior on an internal level that bleeds to other facets of the game and players wanting to support.But to then cap it off with an insinuation that Shadow is less accepting of people who "have a stick and just want to smack people"? And accusing Shadow of tearing people down under the guise of constructive criticism? When it's your negativity and bitterness that people constantly have to mitigate? No one gets "attacked" OOC for not participating. No one gets "attacked" for being unable to code something in. No one gets "attacked" OOC for not liking a specific group of people. You lack a lot of context or refuse to see the actual issues, but this isn't it, and I'm not going to let you project your own faults and behaviour onto an entire tether that absolutely does not behave that way.
Iazamat
6
Re: Talking About Tethers
I really, really hate "did you see x talking to y" and will fight 'til my last breath to suffocate that weird culture.
Don't assume malice in what can be chalked up to ignorance. I think that we do a lot of the former, as people. This isn't a problem unique to Aetolia, but it does tend to come up since it's a conflict-driven game. But sometimes that means that we need to pause and remember that other players (aside from a few little shit exceptions) have little to gain in harming others out of the game. We should all be thinking more like Dungeon Masters, in that we want to set up other players to enjoy the experience, even if something "bad" happens.
When there are high stakes situations out there, I think the competition heats up considerably. Case in point: Sib doesn't tend to get involved in PvP, but this was significant enough to set off every alarm bell in existence. The ....health? well-being? ...of the Soul Mirror is one of those suuuuuper high stakes situations. When the fate of the world hangs in balance, it would be a hard sell to tell Duiran and Enorian to not fight so hard over it.
Maybe we need some more medium or low-stakes stuff going on?? I dunno, just spitballing here.
Don't assume malice in what can be chalked up to ignorance. I think that we do a lot of the former, as people. This isn't a problem unique to Aetolia, but it does tend to come up since it's a conflict-driven game. But sometimes that means that we need to pause and remember that other players (aside from a few little shit exceptions) have little to gain in harming others out of the game. We should all be thinking more like Dungeon Masters, in that we want to set up other players to enjoy the experience, even if something "bad" happens.
When there are high stakes situations out there, I think the competition heats up considerably. Case in point: Sib doesn't tend to get involved in PvP, but this was significant enough to set off every alarm bell in existence. The ....health? well-being? ...of the Soul Mirror is one of those suuuuuper high stakes situations. When the fate of the world hangs in balance, it would be a hard sell to tell Duiran and Enorian to not fight so hard over it.
Maybe we need some more medium or low-stakes stuff going on?? I dunno, just spitballing here.
Sibatti
9
Re: Talking About Tethers
I think it's less that tethers are dictating player behavior as much as it is city culture. As someone who pushed hard for Spines to take a stance in this event, the reasoning was literally never once 'fear of retaliation' from Bloodloch or blind tether allegiance, but a decision to stick to the theme of Spinesreach. To quote our own HELP file:
Looking at this, and looking at the offer from Bloodloch for research into what was essentially a new field of magic, it made sense to be like "No, we should help them, not because they're our allies or because of the treaties or because ShAdOw-whatever, but because we stand to learn some new cool stuff from it, and that is, on paper, our schtick." Unfortunately, that's just really not what the city is. Spines doesn't have an identity right now strong enough to push us towards a singular goal. We're basically the Hufflepuff of Aetolian cities where "all the rest" go, and that makes it really difficult to involve ourselves in any sort of meaningful way in events.
I guess the whole point I'm mentioning it is that the decision wasn't being made at a tether-based "SHADOW GOOD, MUST SUPPORT SHADOW" sort of level, but one from a city culture angle...and I think city culture is what makes the in-game world interesting rather than simply ShadowxSpirit, because that makes it four separate entities, rather than only two. I don't think tethers are an issue when those four cultures get their chance to do things uniquely them and shine for it. Double points if/when those things cause conflict on one side of the tether, like when Syssin and Consanguine were at war over the whole Ati situation.
Undeath and blood andshouting strength? Go go gadget Bloodloch.
Trees and Dendara and Spirits? Do ya thang, Duiran
Light and Spirit and Truth? Praise it, Enorian.
Spinesreach?...¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Like the Ankyrean Order, Spireans bear an immense sense of pride, as their city is home to unequaled intellects and warriors who pursue progress and enlightenment while paying little heed to frivolous hindrances such as morality. Spinesreach is a city that bears a single-minded, inexorable drive towards gaining power in all forms, and it instills a sense of freedom in the will of its citizens, encouraging them to employ whatever tactics they deem necessary to obtain victory in this regard.
Looking at this, and looking at the offer from Bloodloch for research into what was essentially a new field of magic, it made sense to be like "No, we should help them, not because they're our allies or because of the treaties or because ShAdOw-whatever, but because we stand to learn some new cool stuff from it, and that is, on paper, our schtick." Unfortunately, that's just really not what the city is. Spines doesn't have an identity right now strong enough to push us towards a singular goal. We're basically the Hufflepuff of Aetolian cities where "all the rest" go, and that makes it really difficult to involve ourselves in any sort of meaningful way in events.
I guess the whole point I'm mentioning it is that the decision wasn't being made at a tether-based "SHADOW GOOD, MUST SUPPORT SHADOW" sort of level, but one from a city culture angle...and I think city culture is what makes the in-game world interesting rather than simply ShadowxSpirit, because that makes it four separate entities, rather than only two. I don't think tethers are an issue when those four cultures get their chance to do things uniquely them and shine for it. Double points if/when those things cause conflict on one side of the tether, like when Syssin and Consanguine were at war over the whole Ati situation.
Undeath and blood and
Trees and Dendara and Spirits? Do ya thang, Duiran
Light and Spirit and Truth? Praise it, Enorian.
Spinesreach?...¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Feirenz
6
Re: Talking About Tethers
Edit: I want to add one thing- I play a Spirit char and a Shadow char with about equal investment, and I noticed very strongly that as soon as it became known that I had a Shadow char, the Spirit community started treating me with a measure of paranoia that has been honestly really hurtful. As if that made me sus as a person. Deny it or not, but there /is/ an OOC bias across tethers- especially spirit to shadow- and I truly think that, too, plays a part in the desire to find reasons to stand together as a tether against them IC. Please, don't take this as an attack. I love my Spirit friends to pieces. But I need to speak what I see, and I'm not the only one who has experienced that.Anyone treating you this way is unicornsing stupid, fwiw.
Eliadon
6
Events post #287: Shattered Souls, Part III: Death's Due
2/18/2022 at 2:19
Anonymous
Everyone
Shattered Souls, Part III: Death's Due
While the Vashnars, the Siroccians, and the summit of Mount Kentorakro laid splintered by the Underking's spears, war came in force to the trio of mountain ranges: Dhar's promise made manifest. Translucent mist blanketed the mountains in turn as the charnel might imbued in each spear called to those errant souls - those absconed spirits attempting to flee justice - with singular purpose: return to their master.
Spectres swarmed the foot of each ridge, powerless to resist Death's call. While the forces of undeath fought to corrupt each wayward apparition and turn them against Dhar, those on the side of life sought instead to return them and in doing so, empower the Underking to land a calamitous strike against His once-beloved.
With unprecedented unity, those arranged against the undead came together in force, and the hammer met the anvil with a crushing blow of righteous, resolute fury.
The three spears surged with empowered might, fragmenting the bindings anchoring Divine Earth to the Prime Material Plane. The earthen energies faltered under the relentless siege of the Underking, and, mere moments after the third weapon reached its critical rubicon, Dhar Himself appeared to claim victory over His foe.
Naming Ivoln a weak God, Dhar gathered unto Himself all the strength and puissance His weapons had accumulated and climbed atop His mighty steed. Translucent fog blanketed the firmament in a funereal haze, the might of Death Incarnate undeniable, so great and terrible was His presence. Ivoln's protest came in barbarous contempt: "You cannot destroy Me, Dhar. While You jostle to wrench Your errant souls from the hands of the Creator, remember this: You are not Him." The words fell on deaf ears.
Bitterly cold and with iron restraint, Dhar turned His palms outwards and released His gathered might, raw essence diverging into triple strands that plunged into the depths of the three mountain peaks. As the essence vanished, the earth heaved, roiling in pained consternation as dust storms rose across the deserts and the very mountains shook in a cascading avalanche of rubble and displaced stone. Dhar's command rang out over the clamour with biting concision: "Leave."
A roar of agony rent the lips of the Earthen Lord, His voice a seismic crack in air as He fled for Azvosh, the quakes stilling and the seething, dust-whipped storms dying to naught in the wake of His forced exodus - His connection to the Prime grievously harmed.
Dhar, losing no time, called out for the return of His purloined soul: the name of Ondromikios Ijandrimali writ in the air with stern, emotionless authority. Freed from the Earth's grasp, the Magician came forward, offering His Lord an austere nod of acknowledgement before returning to the Heroes' Glade whence he was wrested.
Though He had retrieved what was His, the King's vengeance - the King's justice - was not yet complete. Bathing the cities of Enorian and Duiran in massive outpourings of His own strength, Dhar bid His forces to regather near the Lich Gardens. There, He offered His final command: to rid the place of that which should not be, and reduce the area to rubble. The mortals lost no steam, death essence coursing through their bodies as they channeled Dhar's power to wreak ruin.
As the area crumbled to dust and detritus, subsumed by the power of the grave, the vanquished undead therein howled in agony and Dhar Himself entered. Tomb-forged chains assailed the screaming form of Ewis Bhaq'dal, binding her in the fetters of the Underhalls. Once more climbing atop His phantasmal steed, the Underking galloped away atop His pale horse, the braying mount dragging Ewis behind as the three disappeared into the ether.
Meanwhile, as chaos and war erupted in the overworld, kaleidoscopic crystals played host to a many-eyed gaze...
Penned by my hand on Kinsday, the 13th of Slyphian, in the year 500 MA.
Anonymous
Everyone
Shattered Souls, Part III: Death's Due
While the Vashnars, the Siroccians, and the summit of Mount Kentorakro laid splintered by the Underking's spears, war came in force to the trio of mountain ranges: Dhar's promise made manifest. Translucent mist blanketed the mountains in turn as the charnel might imbued in each spear called to those errant souls - those absconed spirits attempting to flee justice - with singular purpose: return to their master.
Spectres swarmed the foot of each ridge, powerless to resist Death's call. While the forces of undeath fought to corrupt each wayward apparition and turn them against Dhar, those on the side of life sought instead to return them and in doing so, empower the Underking to land a calamitous strike against His once-beloved.
With unprecedented unity, those arranged against the undead came together in force, and the hammer met the anvil with a crushing blow of righteous, resolute fury.
The three spears surged with empowered might, fragmenting the bindings anchoring Divine Earth to the Prime Material Plane. The earthen energies faltered under the relentless siege of the Underking, and, mere moments after the third weapon reached its critical rubicon, Dhar Himself appeared to claim victory over His foe.
Naming Ivoln a weak God, Dhar gathered unto Himself all the strength and puissance His weapons had accumulated and climbed atop His mighty steed. Translucent fog blanketed the firmament in a funereal haze, the might of Death Incarnate undeniable, so great and terrible was His presence. Ivoln's protest came in barbarous contempt: "You cannot destroy Me, Dhar. While You jostle to wrench Your errant souls from the hands of the Creator, remember this: You are not Him." The words fell on deaf ears.
Bitterly cold and with iron restraint, Dhar turned His palms outwards and released His gathered might, raw essence diverging into triple strands that plunged into the depths of the three mountain peaks. As the essence vanished, the earth heaved, roiling in pained consternation as dust storms rose across the deserts and the very mountains shook in a cascading avalanche of rubble and displaced stone. Dhar's command rang out over the clamour with biting concision: "Leave."
A roar of agony rent the lips of the Earthen Lord, His voice a seismic crack in air as He fled for Azvosh, the quakes stilling and the seething, dust-whipped storms dying to naught in the wake of His forced exodus - His connection to the Prime grievously harmed.
Dhar, losing no time, called out for the return of His purloined soul: the name of Ondromikios Ijandrimali writ in the air with stern, emotionless authority. Freed from the Earth's grasp, the Magician came forward, offering His Lord an austere nod of acknowledgement before returning to the Heroes' Glade whence he was wrested.
Though He had retrieved what was His, the King's vengeance - the King's justice - was not yet complete. Bathing the cities of Enorian and Duiran in massive outpourings of His own strength, Dhar bid His forces to regather near the Lich Gardens. There, He offered His final command: to rid the place of that which should not be, and reduce the area to rubble. The mortals lost no steam, death essence coursing through their bodies as they channeled Dhar's power to wreak ruin.
As the area crumbled to dust and detritus, subsumed by the power of the grave, the vanquished undead therein howled in agony and Dhar Himself entered. Tomb-forged chains assailed the screaming form of Ewis Bhaq'dal, binding her in the fetters of the Underhalls. Once more climbing atop His phantasmal steed, the Underking galloped away atop His pale horse, the braying mount dragging Ewis behind as the three disappeared into the ether.
Meanwhile, as chaos and war erupted in the overworld, kaleidoscopic crystals played host to a many-eyed gaze...
Penned by my hand on Kinsday, the 13th of Slyphian, in the year 500 MA.
Re: Mildly Irritating: Aetolia's Pet Peeves
This is a pet peeve @ the universe, but I've had at least two possibly fun RP things cut short recently due to real life. Yesterday a scene started when I was basically falling asleep at my keyboard and had to qq, and today I got a call from my kid's school that she was sick and I had to go get her. Both were cross-tether, too! The rarest and sexiest form of RP!
Tetchta
5
Re: Talking About Tethers
For that to happen there would have to be some very monumental shifts in both player and in game culture. Tethers really only hard coded something that has been more or less fact since I started playing back in 2006 or so - Duiran and Enorian have always had at least semi overlapping interests and Bloodloch and Spinesreach have almost always had at least a somewhat amicable relationship aside from a few brief spats where they fought.That is the amazing thing about a living game! New stories can be pushed and story introduced to change that relationship dynamic. Being stuck on the past because one time an idea did not work in a certain way is a bad precedent.
Anti-civilization has been tried in Duiran before and would be the only way I could think of to really fracture the positive relationship between that org and Enorian, and the majority of players didn't really care for it then, why would they now? Especially when the arguments tended towards...well, less than engaging.
It's also worth noting here that there's really no way to seek out or define the size of pk battles. Before someone says battlefields, yes these do exist, but I think it's clear they're intended for very specific scenarios. They're not here to be a complete substitute for open world pk. But you really can't start open world pk without it devolving into tether-based pk. Foci? Tether oriented. Shrines? All gods are tethered, and regardless of defile aura changes, defending the shrines of a god that is on your tether in the moment is still fair game. It's never just order vs order, defiling becomes tether pk as well. Story conflict? Tether vs tether. Raids, such as during the last war when Bloodloch raided Enorian/Duiran, or when spirit raided Bloodloch, it became a tether wide conflict in all instances. Even just a month or so ago when Sheryni raided Enorian with just the two of us, half the group that showed up was Duiran people. Spinesreach shows up to defend Bloodloch, and Bloodloch shows up to defend Spinesreach in this same vein. You can't ever tailor your group and say you know, we only have a few, Enorian only has a few, lets go fight Enorian, or lets go fight Spinesreach, because you're getting the whole tether no matter what.This really hits my issue with World PK here. This has become enough of an issue for me I basically have stopped participating in world pk outside of big events. I really do not find the two tether deathball/meatgrinder that compelling. And I loved world PK in Achaea. You essentially had better options to pick a fight with a more even sized force. You do not have that here with the two tether system. Yes, there battlefields are cool and exist. But there are not a good substitute for spontaneous world PK.
Kurak
6
Re: Talking About Tethers
While I find the rest of your post very insightful, this section is especially interesting to me - but also it is a huge pet peeve.
I don't want to erase the things that make Spinesreach fun and unique. But also, it's not fair to Bloodloch to have to always stand against Duiran and Eno shoulder to shoulder - especially with the fact that Spirit has a single combat system that synergizes wonderfully (that they've worked hard on! not shitting on it or downplaying the work! just pointing out that they can have nearly any noncom download Sunder and teach them a few commands and they have a ready-made semi-proficient fighter). Meanwhile, Shadow can barely call targets straight. That sort of combined RP and system imbalance has been very telling and discouraging of late.
Sunder is not a Spirit resource.
Sunder is an Aetolian resource.
The system was repeatedly villainized and disparaged as the reason why Spirit wins, which is not true. Especially with the advent of mirrors, Sunder has become a tether neutral system. The only reason it doesn't seem accessible to Shadow is because nobody from Shadow is willing to come to me and contribute to the project. All they need to do is come to me and explain why they want to add this or that, how it helps teams, etc. I have no problems with taking your work and distributing it on your behalf to all of the Shadow newbies you point towards the Sunder server. We have a very friendly, tether-agnostic Discord with a tech support channel, a coding help channel, a channel for discussing combat strategy, etc.
The only reason Shadow doesn't also have that 'single combat system' is because of lingering tribalism imbued into the game by players who no longer even play the game or contribute.
I've gotten whiffs of this. You are correct and there is no defense for it.
Edit: I want to add one thing- I play a Spirit char and a Shadow char with about equal investment, and I noticed very strongly that as soon as it became known that I had a Shadow char, the Spirit community started treating me with a measure of paranoia that has been honestly really hurtful.
Iesid
11
Re: Talking About Tethers
I'm glad that this is being talked about, and people bringing up many good points from many directions, because it -is- a problem.
I don't necessarily agree that doing away with tethers is the answer, but I also vehemently disagree that forcing Spinesreach and Bloodloch closer together is the answer either. Spinesreach is the place for characters who are morally grey and want to RP that, who think Spirit is a bunch of goody-two-shoes but don't want to be a Slayer of Orphans either, and there is a MASSIVE place for that in this game - look at Spines's population and you can see that immediately. There are LOTS of people that enjoy being scholars and spies and artists and other forms of non-combatant, RP-rich characters. Forcing them to march in closer step with Bloodloch would erase a LOT of the freedom and grey-area independence that makes Spines such a great place to play, because Bloodloch (bless 'em) are unequivocably evil and embrace that. That's fantastic RP too! But there are many, many people who enjoy being guards against Shadow encroachment and feeling like a sort of true neutral, and there would be no recourse, nowhere for them to go, if Spines was pushed to be totally fine with Loch and ended up just being Bloodloch 2.0.
Also, Spinesreach has plenty of numbers, but few fighters. I really don't see that changing - this is an RP city almost exclusively with its current makeup of characters, and it thrives for it! Pushing them into Bloodloch's battles doesn't really change anything, because the handful of fighters they could provide are already free to go fight, and usually do.
I don't want to erase the things that make Spinesreach fun and unique. But also, it's not fair to Bloodloch to have to always stand against Duiran and Eno shoulder to shoulder - especially with the fact that Spirit has a single combat system that synergizes wonderfully (that they've worked hard on! not shitting on it or downplaying the work! just pointing out that they can have nearly any noncom download Sunder and teach them a few commands and they have a ready-made semi-proficient fighter). Meanwhile, Shadow can barely call targets straight. That sort of combined RP and system imbalance has been very telling and discouraging of late.
I would love to constructively work out how we can make things fun and fair for everyone without ripping down people's RP and communities.
Edit: I want to add one thing- I play a Spirit char and a Shadow char with about equal investment, and I noticed very strongly that as soon as it became known that I had a Shadow char, the Spirit community started treating me with a measure of paranoia that has been honestly really hurtful. As if that made me sus as a person. Deny it or not, but there /is/ an OOC bias across tethers- especially spirit to shadow- and I truly think that, too, plays a part in the desire to find reasons to stand together as a tether against them IC. Please, don't take this as an attack. I love my Spirit friends to pieces. But I need to speak what I see, and I'm not the only one who has experienced that.
I don't necessarily agree that doing away with tethers is the answer, but I also vehemently disagree that forcing Spinesreach and Bloodloch closer together is the answer either. Spinesreach is the place for characters who are morally grey and want to RP that, who think Spirit is a bunch of goody-two-shoes but don't want to be a Slayer of Orphans either, and there is a MASSIVE place for that in this game - look at Spines's population and you can see that immediately. There are LOTS of people that enjoy being scholars and spies and artists and other forms of non-combatant, RP-rich characters. Forcing them to march in closer step with Bloodloch would erase a LOT of the freedom and grey-area independence that makes Spines such a great place to play, because Bloodloch (bless 'em) are unequivocably evil and embrace that. That's fantastic RP too! But there are many, many people who enjoy being guards against Shadow encroachment and feeling like a sort of true neutral, and there would be no recourse, nowhere for them to go, if Spines was pushed to be totally fine with Loch and ended up just being Bloodloch 2.0.
Also, Spinesreach has plenty of numbers, but few fighters. I really don't see that changing - this is an RP city almost exclusively with its current makeup of characters, and it thrives for it! Pushing them into Bloodloch's battles doesn't really change anything, because the handful of fighters they could provide are already free to go fight, and usually do.
I don't want to erase the things that make Spinesreach fun and unique. But also, it's not fair to Bloodloch to have to always stand against Duiran and Eno shoulder to shoulder - especially with the fact that Spirit has a single combat system that synergizes wonderfully (that they've worked hard on! not shitting on it or downplaying the work! just pointing out that they can have nearly any noncom download Sunder and teach them a few commands and they have a ready-made semi-proficient fighter). Meanwhile, Shadow can barely call targets straight. That sort of combined RP and system imbalance has been very telling and discouraging of late.
I would love to constructively work out how we can make things fun and fair for everyone without ripping down people's RP and communities.
Edit: I want to add one thing- I play a Spirit char and a Shadow char with about equal investment, and I noticed very strongly that as soon as it became known that I had a Shadow char, the Spirit community started treating me with a measure of paranoia that has been honestly really hurtful. As if that made me sus as a person. Deny it or not, but there /is/ an OOC bias across tethers- especially spirit to shadow- and I truly think that, too, plays a part in the desire to find reasons to stand together as a tether against them IC. Please, don't take this as an attack. I love my Spirit friends to pieces. But I need to speak what I see, and I'm not the only one who has experienced that.
Lenoriel
7