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I don't know how you can read that and get anything but 'wildly different expectations'. If that was an example of 'any form of losing is toxic', then I think it's a terrible example. Explicitly, he's stating that because people who don't fight on the regular don't 1v1 him, that that was toxic, and that's 'doing anything to avoid losing'. Really? The only person he cites as 'respecting' because they did stand and fight was Benedicto, and guess what? He's someone who Sects, who can be expected to ENJOY PK. But all the people who might not enjoy it as much, or 1v1 at least, they're toxic for not standing and fighting when they have absolutely no plausible chance of beating him 1v1? To go into something and expecting behavior that you should not reasonably expect, and then calling out the other people and disparaging for it is really bad form in my opinion.

I know you (@Haven) enjoy diving hopeless odds when you don't even have a chance for success by any definition (Carnifex training in Bloodwood/Tiyen Esityi, that one lesser near Spines), but I'm confident in saying that the majority of Aetolians prefer to have some chance of success before going into a fight. I'm confident in saying this based on the number of times I've seen spirit or shadow dive wildly outnumbered fights - on shadow side, I've seen Hawa poke around a few times and Nerakh once or twice just plain bum rushed us solo 3 times over. On our end, I've seen you and me, and I'm not going to solo dive unless I have a real solid plan and think I can snag a kill (a success, by some definition). But I do not think this is a common way of thinking, nor do I think that it should be misrepresented as 'you should be willing to throw yourself to the wolves to satisfy someone else' or that people should be implicitly judged for it, as it seems like a lot of people in this thread seem to be doing. No one likes losing, and to expect people to just fling themselves into the jaws of defeat to satisfy you is supremely arrogant and dickish.

I failed to state it in my post, but prior to the incidents I reference, it had been somewhat widely regarded (by Shadow) that force abilities are generally bad for the game. That they can be used to exploit bugs or oversights (as mentioned above), as well as be used in generally grief-y ways (also mentioned above by me).

But most people on Shadow know it's pointless to even voice these complaints. Regardless of how many negative scenarios and concerns we voice, we generally get brushed aside, kind of like what's happening with these last two posts. My complaints aren't valid because of additional circumstances (not sure what those were), and that we aren't -really- talking about how force is bad in -that- way, so we're going to ignore that you think force is bad.

This, again, in my opinion, circles back to Bulrok's initial complaint. It doesn't really matter what him or his tether does, in good faith or otherwise. He or his tether are always wrong or overreacting.

I apologize in advance if this post blows. I have a migraine but I don't want to miss out on the convo lol. Hopefully it makes sense.

I'm glad you posted, @Iesid, because there's clearly some misunderstandings here about what healthy conflict is, this situation in general, and I think if we talk this out it would benefit the community. I'm willing to engage you on it.

Look, I got love for Bene (you know I do, Bene

Holy War is a terrible system, so I'm sad to see that Iosyne's Order took this route. No offense if the Creator of the system is still present on the staff, but it is fairly antiquated as far as conflict mechanisms go. It favors time and shrine density more than anything else whatsoever and it is a tedious thing to pack or unpack. Putting up shrines, etc is just a boring endeavor overall.

No conflict mechanism is going to be perfect. Literally none. It still obviously has the function of engaging the world at large to stir roleplay and passion about organizations on life support or as you put, ‘to global effect.’ It’s so impactful these kinds of debates happen on the forums, which we rarely use. So, you know, the function of that conflict obviously speaks for itself.

I'm not going to crucify @Benedicto for doing what he did. At least he did something with global effect, something that started potential roleplay - that's something several people complaining at him in this thread cannot claim for themselves. They're using a conversation completely irrelevant to their character to vent their frustrations at him for other purposes. Using this chance for personal attacks is pretty low. That just obfuscates the conversation at hand: how the community should carry themselves when combat gets out of hand.

...Phoenecia's post is primary example - not very productive and mostly just looking to take a swipe at a community member for petty reasons. Bulrok's post, when his character has no relation to Iosyne, is another one - indignant over the behavior of another player. It's like deja vu all over again when it comes to this stuff.

So instead of thinking of it as just being “mean to Benedicto” why can’t we see the greater systemic ramifications within Aetolia at large? That seems to be the discontent here. The guild leader of the Templar guild, who shapes experiences for other players and helps shape conflict on a global scale in the game, a.) has a history of picking easy targets to beef up his reputation, b.) is not working through conflict when called out and instead blocking people while perpetuating the same problematic behaviors he’s been called out for which means behavior never gets fixed, and c.) still uses that entitlement he expects from shadow side to shape further political and conflict situations in further engagements. And we don’t have a way to work things out IC or OOC amongst ourselves without it becoming a niceness pressure cooker. Now we’re using this thread to do that.

Here’s how we carry ourselves: we use this thread to admit the reality of the situation, what we can do in the future to have healthy conflict, and what we can do to perpetuate healthy conflict. I agree with @Haven. If we have to define healthy conflict we can do that. But we stop the back biting and bitchiness on both sides, because frankly, it’s tiring, and we move on.

@Haven \/\/

Nah can't do that, though. For instance. This one time Alathesia and some other noncom Iosyne member were hanging out in Omeis place and talking smack. Whatever happened that night got Seir to rally all of Spirit tether into beating on Iosynes order so much that I griefed my first person ever and killed Aymah every time she stepped outside of a city until Seir quit his bullshit. Benedicto already threatened to involve the entire tether once, just like that, but people on the evil side of the game have principles and shit and aren't going to get involved just because their friends with the people getting stomped OOCly.

[snipped]

You know what happens when someone is doing something dumb on shadow side and they ask for help? We ask them questions, figure out what's going on, and if they're due for a beating, we tell them to suck it up and eat the beating. Spirit suggests shit like that (the issueing), regardless of right or wrong, and then preaches about how they're the good guys OOCly on the forums. I've about had it with this bullshit, and I've about had it with Tiur hanging out in that fucking discord and supporting these toxic cliquey fucks, too.

So, no, man. I'll name and shame until a mod steps in and sweeps all this bullshit under the rug, and everyone who does this type of bullshit can go back to thinking they're good people and I'm the asshole because I type mean instead of being passive aggressive.

I'd really like to see both tethers and all guilds/orders/cities growing a pair and acting IC how they were made to without people getting upset OOC. 

That would lead to all out war, of which we have no system to actually make that happen.

If people played in their roles Enorian would be always at war with Bloodloch. This is something that just doesn't work so far as I've seen. So instead we have the play nice and give each other some kind of respect. There's not a lot of players in this dying gamestyle of MUDs so respecting each other a little goes a long way.

From everything I've experienced in the past though, an order declaring all-out war on a guild is a one way ticket to issues upon issues. I don't see why the other way around isn't considered in the same light.