Best Of

I think sometimes we can get so wrapped up in critical analysis that we end up psyching ourselves out of a lot of opportunities. Iesid's said exactly what I had in mind when I first responded to this thread in that these story hooks are prompts for players to wield and use to embark on a journey. Player agency potential is at an all-time high with all the tools currently in place now. Sure, some can still be refined but they -are- there. Just unfortunately underutilized.

Consider this: Players can organically select an agenda based on what's important to them and execute the concept now knowing that there can be some form of respected resolution if outside forces intervene. And this is without the need for heavy, if any, admin assistance at all.

A Syssin spies on an organization and discovers they have come into possession of interesting relics/artifacts? They plan a heist or maybe just sell the information to the Archivists or blackmail another org because [insert theme/hook of choice]. The Archivists lockdown a zone because they want to do some experimentation RP or believe the area holds a clue to [insert theme/hook of choice here]. Perhaps the Illuminai want to set up an outpost or encampments for healing/purging because [insert theme/hook of choice here]. Maybe Duiran shifts their policy on Spirean affairs and applies heavy organizational pressure now because [insert theme/hook of choice here].

They can hit up their crafters for supplies to try and get the city abuzz with activity in preparation for the operation: posters, manacles, food/drink, tents, whatever they need. Engage in political talks, leverage treaties or contacts/relationships to push their agenda. Using the context clues from their own skills, established lore, etc. organizations can craft a fun story of their own that is as serious or silly as they desire it to be. "Woah! Did you know the esophagus of a Grook produces 2 metric tons of kinetic force when spitting? Maybe we can harness this into a weapon somehow! FOR SCIENCE!"

All these in turn can prompt several things. A Celani might get inspired and involve themselves to help enhance the story. Another player or organization might catch wind of the activity and seize the opportunity to get involved and mix in their own agenda. If diplomacy fails and things escalate to violence, players can now use battlefields to dictate terms of resolution to any given story. The Duirani prompts aren't any different.

Are there players that will eye-roll and ignore your attempts at storytelling for one reason or another? Sure. Will there be times where the story hits a roadblock or questions go unanswered? Yes. While I can understand the fears and frustrations that can accompany it, failure is a healthy part of the process. Take breaks here and there if you have to but remember to keep trying. There can be no progress without a bit of player respect, ambition and desire to go out and do things.

In full honesty, part of me has thought it just might be better for Duiran as an org if Dendara blew up but for real this time. Maybe I'm just being a doomer.

The org and its guilds have issues and a lot of these issues have persisted for RL years to an extent I don't think that I have seen other cities struggle with (grain of salt, obviously, as I've only experienced my own experience, believe it or not). I would absolutely hesitate to put this on just the playerbase, or just the pools, so much as a consequence of a long term buildup of the overall environment. Sometimes it definitely happens because of leadership - and sometimes it happens in spite of leadership, which I'd like to think is the case now. Because as a guild leader currently, man, holy unicorns I am trying.

But sometimes it feels like that time I was an officer in an RP FC in ff14 - at one event I ran a ton of people (ten to twenty) would show up, and the next week I'd have, like, two people. No feedback, no criticisms, nothing in between but the occasional 'i had fun!' and I'm left doing guesswork as to why one approach worked once and then never again. At times it's worse in Duiran because I get a crumb or two of feedback, adjust accordingly, and continue to get nothing. I don't think I'm alone in that.

Duiran as a whole feels a lot like that impenetrable enigma. In one day, we get lore drops that should light a fire under our collective butt (most importantly, Haern reveals that Dendara is not only dying but actually in the death sleep) but seemingly really struggle to move forward with any of it despite what seems to me the best efforts of many players. I know I've chased geese down rabbit holes for RL hours in the time since and turned up, as best I can tell, absolutely nothing of value, and I don't think I'm alone in that either.

I do think there's nothing inherently wrong with having a section of the playerbase which is just more quiet than others, to be clear, even if I do recognize that can make it harder to engage with. And I don't want to devalue the useful feedback I DO get from other players, because as I hope is obvious from my previous writing I do really appreciate it; nor do I want this to just be me pitying myself, and I apologize if it comes across that way. But it's kind of exhausting when you can't tell if you're doing something wrong or not because, overwhelmingly, you don't even get negative responses. I'd like to think I'm still not alone in that (although it might be better from a game health perspective if I am lmao).

It feels like more a false stereotype of fantasy settings used to justify idle hands than anything else, if I'm being honest. The good guys can always go out and make sure their protectorates have what they need, they can always try to indoctrinate new protectorates, attempt to convert entire cultures, burn down the villages of heretics and slaughter those who won't convert or actively stand in the way of the Age of Dawn, proselytize at every opportunity (see: @Kurak), attempt to consecrate grounds to their various gods, etc.

You don't have to wait for the admin to respond to any of that. You don't need anyone's approval for it. This is going to sound uncharitable, but it feels less like an issue of permission and more that the attached consequences of doing so aren't something anyone wants to suffer.

And sorry for hijacking your thread, @Iesid.

I 100% agree. One RP aspect I have quit on is Aya wanting to bring it about. But I kept getting told it's dumb rp nobody wants to be part of because it is unattainable. The minute it is, the game is over and just... it is still her desire but there is no point doing anything about it.

I feel this might help:

The OOC secret is that Dendara is never going to die but also that player characters are probably never going to fix Dendara permanently. If they did, Duiran would need something new to be motivated about - 'protect Dendara now that it is alive' is just asking them to go further down the 'isolate and don't participate' rabbit hole. I do not expect players to warp their character decisions based on this OOC knowledge, but I think there's a certain aspect of 'we are playing a game' that we should all keep in mind when we start drifting towards very passive game states.

These types of broad concepts are more of a prompt to build mission statements off of. There's a certain degree of disbelief I suspend when deciding my character's actions: he does not know that Dendara or its state are just an idea that provides motivation for one of 4 city-orgs to have RP interactions about. It's really 'just' the plot to me, the player. To Iesid, though, this is a real and tangible thing that serves as a source of existential catastrophe or serious crisis. He will react how he needs to, but I as a player still accept that he's never going to do anything that ends the entire plot hook of the organization he belongs to. However, he can do things that either gives him or his comrades a glimpse of light at the end of that impossibly long tunnel. There are things that can be done to take steps towards these concepts, even if they are forever on the horizon for the sake of keeping the game open/plot running.

Being realistic what you want your character to do is important: instead of 'achieve the Age of Dawn', have you considered what your character could do that serves as a milestone on the road to that? I think that is what those goals or concepts are for - it's an unattainable finish line, but there are tangible victories that individual players or given generations of them can attain on the way there.

Enorian is in a very similar spot in regards to the Age of Dawn 'prophecy'. I literally hate this piece of lore, because it is 100% unattainable, but we need to feel like we give a shit about it from a character standpoint.

I think it's fine for organizations to have their own unique RP that sets them apart from others, but I don't agree that conflict for the sake of conflict is the answer to that. Hating everyone and wanting to war with everybody simply because their views don't align with your own is really low-hanging fruit when it comes to storytelling, and I think it'll do far more harm than good in the long run. Especially because this is a social game, where people want to feel included and part of a community. So I guess if your community revolves around fighting anyone who isn't part of your tribe, how is this a good thing to for the game's atmosphere? It sounds like a worse version of the claims of tether tribalism.

I've randomly been hearing snippets of people in the playerbase wanting to push to get rid of tethers entirely, and frankly, I don't think the playerbase is mature enough to handle a complex game atmosphere like that, with a constant, shifting political landscape. I get the feeling it would ultimately devolve into cities being friends/enemies based on the personal relationship between the CL's themselves. And even doing this would put immense pressure on the different guilds within the cities, so with the current infrastructure we have, cities will continue to have all the power (if not more, if we get rid of tethers) to steer the direction of the game and guilds will.. essentially be strong-armed into changing their goals and directives just to fit in.

Re: the slavery thing - it felt super weird to not see more Duirani care about slaves. In the fantasy setting, freefolk and wildlings have.. typically been very pro-freedom, anti-slavery. Not saying there can't be some inter-org drama where a caste system would be in effect, that lower-ranked people were considered only for labor, menial duties, etc.

I wouldn't say Duiran is apathetic at all. There were some very hard conversations had between Sry and Rihrin about the lumberjack thing (and possible mass murder of everyone in Dolbodi), and I think Rihrin handled that tension rather well, all things considered. This example in particular was good for Enorian, because I think it helped us realize where our line in the sand in; and that happens to be slaying children. The shitty thing is that I get the feeling most people in Enorian would have no problem helping Duiran defend Dendara or protect the Cycle, but Duiran cares so little about the 'Light' or anything Enorian cares about so it's quickly starting to appear like a very unbalanced relationship.

I've been trying to keep an open mind when it comes to Enorian's goals, myself. Because while I think the idea of being these fanatical zealots who'd kill anyone who can't be converted sounds rad as fuck, I also understand that not everyone wants to buy into that type of RP. So really, it's on us as leaders to look at the orgs we run and ask, "Okay, what's a realistic atmosphere and tone I can set for my org that encourages other people to want to play, from die-hard Aetolia players to even the most casual, weekend warriors?" Because what's fun for me, may not be fun for another. And while yes, I may be one person at the helm of the org I'm leading, it's not my personal agenda I'm trying to push. I'm just steering the boat in the direction other people want to go, and trying to make it as fun and engaging for them as I can along the way.

Enorian is in a very similar spot in regards to the Age of Dawn 'prophecy'. I literally hate this piece of lore, because it is 100% unattainable, but we need to feel like we give a shit about it from a character standpoint.

itt Eliadon said the thing out loud ingame and gets shit on by half of Enorian for it.

Eliadon got shit on for saying he literally has no goal or desire to do good, which is very much something the rp of Enorian seems invested in. That isn’t to say you can’t be in Eno and not care about morality but it does put you in the minority and as such will get push back.

On the matter of org direction and stuff like that, being taken seriously and all those important things come from consistency I think and unfortunately Duiran hasn’t had a lot of it. Yes the Dendara nature thing is always there but the org has had a rough go. From having to be restructured because of org abuse to welcoming shadow in their walls to deciding wait no I take it back to now, it’s a lot of flux.

Unfortunately it’s not a problem I know how to fix but I can speak to how FUN it is to give an org identity. Those of us in Damariels new order are having a good time mixing stuff up and while it would probably piss off anyone who was WAY into Jesus Damariel, it’ll make the org better as a whole. You just gotta rip off the Bandaid.

Eliadon got shit on for saying he literally has no goal or desire to do good, which is very much something the rp of Enorian seems invested in. That isn’t to say you can’t be in Eno and not care about morality but it does put you in the minority and as such will get push back.

I mean sure, if you take literally everything out of context about that entire conversation. :P

More topically, it's... hard to want to care about micro-level things when the macro-level issues are so important re: Xaspher. If I don't defend Dendara all Life dies. If we don't defend the pillars, presumably Azvosh and the Prime make out so hard that existence ends. If we don't destroy the Shadowbound, then Ohlsana will eventually make Sapience puppets for Her cause. If we don't try to stop Sciomancers from bringing more excess Shadow into the Prime, eventually existence becomes too hostile for life to survive because Shadow eats it all.

Almost everything org-defining is potentially world-ending. It's... hard to, OOCly at least, care about any one thing when everything is a catastrophe. My character has his own focuses, of course, but even those aren't really realistic with the kind of game that this is. Without y'all up top making major time commitments to coding/developing/etc things, the giant high-level Metaphysical/Planar/Age of Dawn related org goals never really go anywhere, and never can go anywhere.

The Age of Dawn is a good one - there's no way it can possibly actually happen, from an OOC standpoint. But it's been the basis for everything Enorian's bought into.