Short COMBAT Questions

Serrice

Does dodge upset block against leapslash and fling?

Xiuhcoatl

I believe nothing can make them miss/dodge them, similar to shield attacks but much less useful in a 1v1 fight. I'm not 100% on that, but I've never seen them dodged before avoidance changed so I doubt it'd change afterwards. 

Irruel

Xiuhcoatl said:

@Irruel You can understand exactly what changes are going to do before putting them in. This isn't an FPS, a complex RTS with different elevation levels, or something else where multiple factors can affect one person. The combat here is balanced around 1v1 and VERY VERY FEW abilities around teamfighting. If you can't understand what a change is going to do, you're either focusing on too many things or don't understand the current implementation and/or the intended change. 

Aetolian combat is blindingly easy when you actually sit down and focus on what's going on. The hard part, which is the entry to combat outside of buying a plug and play offense, is understanding what curing balance is and how it works. 

We could, if it was one change at a time, and we knew all of the details.
But it's not like that at all.

We don't know what the extent of the changes are going to be.

Take paralysis:
Will curare deliver a bloodroot anxiety that turns into paralysis after 2 seconds? 4 seconds? 8 seconds?
Or will the interim affliction block tree tattoo? Disable parry? Will it allow active attacks but not standing? (Unlikely, but who knows? We can't trust the report, because the liaison process involves discussion about exactly what to implement. One of the most common liaison report answers is "something like 2, but a bit different.")

And then on top of that, it will affect each class differently, and within each class, it will affect them differently depending on their opponent's class. Our liaison team doesn't represent all classes equally. They might try, but it just can't work that way.

And even on top of THAT, there are a hundred other reports going through. Each of which may change combat in ways that affect the effect of the paralysis report, and which I do not know the details of, which leave me unable to predict where balance will end up.

And none of that is even considering the competence of the liaison team. I have no idea if any of them are competent or not. I've seen the odd concerning comment though, such as "no class other than BB/Praenomen use confusion as part of their main offense." (Concerning when two of my four classes do,  and neither of which are BB or Praenomen.)

It does concern me also that not all classes are represented equally by our liaison team. Look at the poor quality of the lycan reports this round in comparison to some other classes. Lycan is a class that could use some help, but hardly anyone cared enough to bother writing reports.

Oleis

I appreciate your thoughtfulness in regard to the liaison system. You're right in saying that the breadth of the changes is the difficult part. Razmael and I have split the reports between us, and the hard part is not coding or implementing. That's been mostly done for a while. The difficulty is primarily in negotiating the interconnectivity of combat. A change may be two lines of code or two hundred, but it has balance implications all across the game either way. It's still my intention to release the final classlead changelogs a few days before the changes actually go live.

As for lycans, I can take the blame for that. I suggested that we should wait to see what happens to the popularity of the class before we assess the combat balance with too much scrutiny. Underrepresented classes get fewer reports, yes, but it's also much more difficult to see if they're underpowered or just underutilized. I have a feeling we'll get a much better view of the situation soon.

Aishia

@Irruel We do know a lot more answers about stuff like that than maybe the general playerbase does. You're welcome to ask for details though some of it is subject to tweaking obviously. Most things are not TOP SECRET or anything.

Xiuhcoatl

@Irruel You're focusing on too many things and going this is complicated. You need to figure out what the change is and focus on what it affects. Most abilities don't actually interact with anything else in the game. If you think they do, look at half the abilities you use and see how they would affect different classes. 90% of all abilities affect different classes the exact same way. Hence, most abilities don't have to be thought of as interacting with different abilities. The only thing that affects classes differently or per class is damage.

Let's say the paralysis change. If it blocks just standing, it'll be completely useless. If it allows parrying to go down, the only classes that use limb damage/attacks and have paralysis open to them in an effective method are lycans and sentinels. If it upgrades into a new affliction that has the same effects as paralysis after the change, again the only thing that will change is the priority in which it is for attacking and curing. Granted, the attack priority doesn't have to change. This also doesn't mean that people will not use it. 

The most change that will happen is that the current overpowered classes will be overpowered because there's nothing stopping them. The current underpowered classes will not be able to compete with the overpowered classes because again, there's nothing stopping them. There will be a clear rift in terms of what has been implemented as classes, which really just shows incompetence in the design of the class and the approval method. Alternatively you could say that the person implementing it would want the class to be combat oriented and decided to give them an overpowered combat route to emphasize this. Then not a single person noticeably objected to this and it went in. Very similar to the original statement of incompetence. Combat that would be most effected would be luminaries, as there is no way to stop their chasten and shield attack other than paralysis. IE they would be very reliable hitters, hitting max APS with little to stop them. This has always been a problem though, so you'll see the incompetence part from before holds true. Mental attack classes that don't get affected by magic-impotence would become stronger. However, all classes that are mental attack based classes besides vampires and luminaries are bad. So this change doesn't do anything to any other mental attack based class. With tarot shaping up this MIGHT be a problem. However, judging from previous incompetence with the class design and rejection/approvals it's fairly certain nobody knows what they're doing in the slightest. So the likely hood of them figuring out what the class needs to be effective is next to nil, so you can also ignore this as a possibility. 

I could keep going, but eh.

Also, don't feel bad about calling people incompetent or jumping on them at the drop of the hat. You're only hurting yourself. If people can't stand criticism about how they're fundamentally failing at the position they applied/worked towards, they should most likely step down as they failed to recognize they're working for the playerbase, not their friends, resume, e-peens or the like. You know what company doesn't listen to their user base: EA, BP, Microsoft, Apple. I don't know about you, but I don't want to have spent thousands of dollars on AetoliaField 4, Aetolia Spill, Aetolia 8, or iAetolia Pro.

Oleis

I'm going to break two of my own rules. First, I'm not going to delete the post above mine. Mods, please follow suit. It's full of bitterness and backwards reasoning, but it's about to help me make a point.

If you feel like Xiuhcoatl, you need to figure out your unicorns. And I don't mean, "If you think we're messing everything up," or "If you have a lot of bitterness about being wronged" (still not arguing with @Toz for a reason, folks), or even "If you just kinda like stirring things up on forums." I mean if the thought of Aetolia's deviation from your mental plan brings you actual, foaming at the mouth rage, you need to take a break. If you find yourself discounting the humanity of the people providing your game experience, you need to play some 2048 and step away from Mudlet. 

Xiuh is right about one thing. I heckled Jeremy for 5 years (and volunteered for 2) to get this position. And I'm so grateful to Aetolia for paying my groceries and at least some of my rent. Sort of. Barely. But every game, every club, every collaborative effort comes with the acknowledgement that your vision is not central to the operation of the overall system. That includes Raz's vision, mine, and especially each of the players, who have great ideas shrouded in biases and predilections. It's about getting a handle on your personal preferences and eventually creating something cohesive from the individual parts.

I'm not going to shrub anyone who doesn't break our rules. I'm not going to threaten to be big scary forum mod. I'm addressing each of you as people. If you've gone from enjoyment to apathy to impotent rage, figure out your unicorns. I'll be there on the other side, trying to make things better.

Daskalos

Hey -- don't let the trolls get you down. Seriously, 99% of the Aetolian playerbase loves and appreciates what you, Razmael, and the others do. Especially those of us who were here through some really rough times, you guys are freakin' awesome.

Nalor

@OLEIS Is the besties!!!!  He answers my dumb/clueless issues.

Back to question time.. Has anyone tested Fortify in avoidance? Is it better to use then nimbleness?

Irruel

@oleis
Thanks for the reply. Replies, really.
I don't think I would blame the lycan reports on anyone at all, and certainly not you. I didn't mean which reports were approved and how - but more which reports were ever created. Saybre put in some effort, and of course a handful of others, but they're quite a disparate jumble of ideas that don't really agree on the problems, let alone solutions. It's just an example of what happens when, exactly as you said, a class is not popular.

A class may be unpopular because it is weak, old, boring, or (very commonly) because there is another flavour of the month out there. In the case of the lycans, I think it's just a combination of a bit of frustration with the parry/prerestore minigame, and there being other alternatives out there. It doesn't necessarily mean the class is weak though.

Anyway, you dealt with my concerns several posts ago when you agreed that the changes will need to be implemented carefully and monitored. What happened after that was a disagreement on the efficacy of theory-crafting.

Moirean

The game's combat is never going to be perfectly balanced. Anyone who thinks that is going to happen is very confused - tactics will always arise as players figure out new things, and classes are always going to see new tweaks and changes to help keep things fresh and exciting. Even the biggest names out there, like Blizzard, are always going back and changing how their skills work, and PVP is a lot less complex in a graphical MMO. The outcome of balancing is a persistently ongoing process, and, for me at least, the process is just as important as the results. I feel like IRE games do yo-yo a bit with balancing, but there have been consistent efforts and implementations made (changelogs, search news, improvements to the liaison report system, better bug logging) that demonstrate that not only is our admin team aiming to improve balance, they are also aiming to improve the balancing PROCESS. I may not like or agree with all of the changes (hey, PKers grumble, we don't all agree with stuff), but it's clear that the staff is constantly working to improve things on both the front and backend, and that sort of effort is very important and has long-lasting positive changes to the game itself.

Haven

Moirean said:

The game's combat is never going to be perfectly balanced. 

Never say never!

Moirean

That's my point, though. This is a persistent game. New skills and additions and class revamps are always being released. If we ever reach a static, "perfectly balanced" game, that would mean they have stopped development.

Haven

Moirean said:

That's my point, though. This is a persistent game. New skills and additions and class revamps are always being released. If we ever reach a static, "perfectly balanced" game, that would mean they have stopped development.

I... think we may have different definitions of what game balance is. o.o Cause if we're talking about a game where things are fair in that there are counters and multiple viable strategies so that success and failure are dependent on your choices in the moment then what you've said is not true. A game can be balanced and still have new content released for it.

Moirean

Eh, I think you're nitpicking. I was just trying to say that it's understandable (and expected) that there is always stuff to tweak and refine due to the persistent, cyclical nature of development.

Xiuhcoatl

We can have working offenses for every single class. There is no excuse why certain classes can not kill someone competent other than a very serious lack of competency during the entire design of the class' combat. That is a fact. 

Either during the design phase there was a lack of understanding of combat that resulted in it or someone literally decided to purposely do it. I'm not a fan of conspiracies, so I'm betting the first option is the usual course. Either way, those are the only two ways that it would happen. It is done intentionally through negative means or unintentionally through lack of understand.

Now, this is a thread about asking simple combat questions. Now let's get back to answering simple combat questions and stop arguing about if it's the liaison's, administration's, player base's, or nobody's fault for why we have so many classes with combat that doesn't work. OK?

Ishin

Honestly, @Oleis, @Razmael, don't let what Xiuh says bother you too much.

Shit is like, 9001^asideways8 better than it was when I first started playing. You guys who are new players have no idea how bad this shit used to be. So bad. SO. BAD.

I think you guys do a pretty good job, even if things don't get addressed as fast as I'd like. That's just a personal thing, though, because it's pretty well known that I'm not a very patient dude at all.

Jensen

You mean you didn't like web/feed being faster than writhe?

Irruel

Psh, easy tactic to beat. Preload the entire area with clothesline traps and if they resorted to web feed, make them follow you through it, one room at a time, really, slowly. (Gnehehe Zahm)

Fight lame with lame - early Aetolia in a nutshell.

Xiuhcoatl

Or you know, don't let them feed in the first place by keeping slickness cured and sileris up. Alternatively not getting truelocked. 

Ishin

Or just..buy web boots. Like I did.

Irruel

Xiuhcoatl said:

Or you know, don't let them feed in the first place by keeping slickness cured and sileris up. Alternatively not getting truelocked. 

This was before sileris blocked it.

Jensen

waaaay back when webs were quick and writhes were slow, it was feedin' time e'ry day

Haven

>_> While we're in memory lane, anyone remember what black biles did?

Jensen

whys it always gotta be about the -black- biles with you? hmmm?

Ishin

Always some shit about color. Next thing you know he'll be asking about -YELLOW- biles. Ugh.

Jensen

I support -rainbow- biles

Haven

...I hate you all!

Ishin

No, @Jensen. WHITE biles bro. WHITE biles.

Ishin

So um...whatever happened to that Barreling skill that lycanthropes used to have? Did it not survive the shapeshifter transfer? I hope someone just forgot about it