Short COMBAT Questions

Ashmer · April 2014

Nalor said:

Ashmer said:

4. A way to track and deal with serpent spirit hidden.my opinion.
So you need loki handling as you already said

I think there's an additional factor here, but I haven't done much in-depth research on that one yet.

Nalor · April 2014

Nope it just deals loki .. like the boru in ollin @Ashmer

Aishia · April 2014

Or you know, the other serpent hidden that he's actually talking about.

Daskalos · April 2014

Ashmer said:

Also, in response to the weapon-switching thing, it's not even that big of a deal. I figured out how to handle that just like I handle everything else in stupidity a day or two ago, and I haven't had any problems at all with it.

If you want to talk about making coding easier, an update on the messages from Hypnosis would keep that insert_fairy_tale_creature_here.jpg from being so fairy_tale_creature_caught_in_scandal.png esoteric to code. It still uses full titles for some of the messages, by Ivoln's earthen Pillar!

In polite reply to @Daskalos: Also, the 100% unstoppability of Syssin escapability is getting toned with the Scaling changes, and there's a few facts here worth pointing out:

1. When the Syssin leaves the room they sacrifice their own offense almost entirely (if not entirely) as well.

2. Moirean and Toz's comments are true, just delivering the Hypnosis offense alone can easily put you in Absolve, Annihilate, or clean-yourself-up-you're-bleeding range. Sometimes the only recourse they have is to go oshiz and just bail.

It's worth noting that Syssin aren't the only class that's really, really difficult to pin down. Nothing seems to stop Nirvana, for example, or Templar Latency. With the Scaling nerf I think we'll have to see if Syssin escapability is still too much (which I am definitely of the opinion that it was.) In general escape mechanisms are pretty much a thing around here these days, and it's an intentional part of the class.

Oh, in an entirely separate point, it seems to me that the Nerf Bat(tm) is also really, really readily at hand here. Don't get me wrong, I really do thing there are things that need to be looked at, balanced, re-balanced, et cetera about combat as we go, but a lot of the time I just see people reaching for that handy Nerf Bat(tm) in favor of actually doing the thinking to see what they can do to counter whatever's OP about that. Combat here takes intellectual effort, forethinking, planning, trial, and error, and failure is definitely a factor. It's what makes the IRE combat system far and above the weighties and most satisfying of any game I've played.

I hate losing probably more than the next guy, but I personally find way more satisfaction in figuring something out and countering it, [b]along with[/b] speculating about potential ways something that seems un-fun or un-balanced might be re-balanced (or just made fun).

Also, another thing to note is

killTimer(timers.ashmer_rant)

system.rant = false

[System] Info: Rant disconnected.

Angel Refuge is stopped by nothing, but is also on a 30 second timer (or if you kill them\make the angel fade in any way it doesn't fire). I'd be ok with some restrictions in exchange for a faster refuge, though I rarely use the skill at all. Templar latency -should- be stopped by a monolith because it's just pilgrimage to a latent aura and pilg is stopped by monolith. If it's not, that would be a bug.

Overall, I hate escapibility in Aetolia, and think it's far too easy to get out of fights.

Ashmer · April 2014

Daskalos said:

Angel Refuge is stopped by nothing, but is also on a 30 second timer (or if you kill them\make the angel fade in any way it doesn't fire). I'd be ok with some restrictions in exchange for a faster refuge, though I rarely use the skill at all. Templar latency -should- be stopped by a monolith because it's just pilgrimage to a latent aura and pilg is stopped by monolith. If it's not, that would be a bug.

Overall, I hate escapibility in Aetolia, and think it's far too easy to get out of fights.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to compare Refuge to Evade, Scale, or Leap, and I never got the chance last night to see if Latency is bypassing monolith for sure, but I definitely didn't see anyone Latency off of a monolith sigil, so that's not a bug I was trying to point out.

And I can definitely commiserate with some of the frustration on escape stuff, though the fact of the matter is it's part of the game balance right now, and it really does contribute to an environment where the outcome of a conflict is more open-ended than "someone died, the end," which I for one really like. Aetolia is a holistic kind of experience, so if someone like Haven loves sticking around for a fight until they end they can do that, and if someone wants to play the villain and slip away before they can be caught, they can also do that. The rest is just ego, honestly, including my own. I can definitely commiserate with the frustration of "You can find no such target as 'dat_dude_you_were_about_to_wreck.gif.'"

Anyway, all just thoughts. I haven't had any enlightening insights on the subject of escape skills myself, beyond what I just put up here.

Haven · April 2014

What I loathe about the escapability in the game is that it breds and essentially FORCES people to team in order to see a conflict resolved. With Havens, special wings, superbeefed up guards in cities, etc...You can literally be a little shit and not have to deal with anything once you hit endgame.

Angel Refuge is also stopped by movement. If you fear the target or fling them into the air or lure them out or barge them out of the room or whatever in the x seconds it takes it to proc, Angel Refuge is stopped. If it isn't then it's likely a bug. I don't believe it is 30 seconds though...that's far too long. I want to say it's more like 15-20.

Edit: Just tested it, it's 20 seconds.

Toz · April 2014

I've done pretty well for myself, getting people on the bounty list. Maybe not EASY, but you can manage it. And if they're hiding on guards or in a haven 24/7, they're not out there being a unicorn, which is a win in my book.

Aishia · April 2014

I often suffer from just being to be STALWART and tank as much damage as possible, I sure die a lot. most of my escapes are like, Valingar escaping me.

Ashmer · April 2014

Aishia said:

I often suffer from just being to be STALWART and tank as much damage as possible, I sure die a lot. most of my escapes are like, Valingar escaping me.

He's so darn good at that. I'm never sure whether to be impressed or frustrated.

Haven · April 2014

Anyone remember what black biles did?

Haven · April 2014

Is there a balance reason shield arm doesn't act as parry arm if weapon arm is broken?

Syssin who wields dirk and whip. Teradrim breaks their right arm. Syssin can still parry with whip. Requires dual break to stop parry entirely.

Syssin who wields weapon and a tower (or even Luminary or any class who is weapon/shield combo). Teradrim breaks weapon arm. Parry disabled entirely until weapon arm is fixed.

Haven · April 2014

Okay, people have been telling me it's a bug in my system. It's a gag somewhere. It's not. This is like the fourth time this has occurred and it rears its ugly head so rarely it's hard to catch. But Aetolia is definitely FAILING to send lines for various balance. Be it salve, smoking, or herb.

I do not know if this is replicated via GMCP as I don't use it but this is frustrating beyond hell.

At 6:10:57 PM EST or 2:57.590 in the log is the last time Aetolia sends me the line "You may now smoke another herb." Once I smoked for rebounding it never told me I regained balance ever again and it led me to getting killed.

http://pastehtml.com/view/e2pra0pom.html

Ishin · April 2014

If you look just above 3:3:85, you see it sends smoke skullcap, but it never lands. That's probably what happens, unless I really miss you smoking after that. I only see two occasions of the word 'smoke' in that whole log you pasted.

Haven · April 2014

Ishin said:

If you look just above 3:3:85, you see it sends smoke skullcap, but it never lands. That's probably what happens, unless I really miss you smoking after that. I only see two occasions of the word 'smoke' in that whole log you pasted.

My system is designed to keep smoking every .25 seconds if I have balance and the attempt failed. The problem is I smoke rebounding here and never get the line "You may now smoke another herb" ever again from the game:

<font size="2" face="Courier New, FixedSys, Lucida Console, Courier New, Courier"><font color="#C0C0C0">You take a long drag off your pipe filled with skullcap.
</font><font color="#FFFFFF">Ishin is afflicted with: </font><font color="#EE82EE">epilepsy, </font><font color="#F5DEB3">weariness, </font><font color="#EE82EE">impatience, haemophilia, shadow, </font><font color="#FF8C00">slickness, </font><font color="#FFFF00">hellsight, </font><font color="#EE82EE">sensitivity, lethargy, fitness, deafness, clarity, </font><font color="#F5DEB3">hypochondria, </font><font color="#FF8C00">asthma, 
</font><font color="#96FF00">[100]</font><font color="#6600FC"> [99]</font><font color="#02FCFC"> E99</font><font color="#FFF9F9"> W98</font><font color="#1E1E1E"> B100</font><font color="#5A8054"> S100</font><font color="#9A4454"> Dev51</font><font color="#7C0086"> Spark59</font><font color="#28D700"> <<XP 84%>></font><font color="#FFFFFF"> [cspdb eb]</font><font color="#FF7777"> 3:4.253</font><font color="#FFFFFF"> -</font></font>

<font size="2" face="Courier New, FixedSys, Lucida Console, Courier New, Courier"><font color="#FFFFFF"><br></font></font>

Ishin · April 2014

Did you see this?

<font face="Courier New, FixedSys, Lucida Console, Courier New, Courier" size="2"><font color="#C0C0C0">You may smo
</font><font color="#804040">Angel Battle self-pity Ishin
shield strike Ishin
chasten Ishin stupidity
queue bal contemplate Ishin
</font><font color="#C0C0C0">ke another herb.
</font><font color="#FFFFFF">Ishin is afflicted with: </font><font color="#F5DEB3">weariness, </font><font color="#EE82EE">impatience, haemophilia, shadow, vomiting, </font><font color="#FFFF00">hellsight, </font><font color="#EE82EE">sensitivity, lethargy, fitness, deafness, clarity, </font><font color="#F5DEB3">hypochondria, </font><font color="#FF8C00">asthma, 
</font><font color="#96FF00">[100]</font><font color="#6600FC"> [99]</font><font color="#02FCFC"> E99</font><font color="#FFF9F9"> W98</font><font color="#1E1E1E"> B100</font><font color="#5A8054"> S100</font><font color="#9A4454"> Dev51</font><font color="#7C0086"> Spark59</font><font color="#28D700"> <<XP 84%>></font><font color="#FFFFFF"> [cspdb eb]</font><font color="#FF7777"> 3:5.846</font><font color="#FFFFFF"> -</font></font>

Haven · April 2014

Ishin said:

Did you see this?

<font face="Courier New, FixedSys, Lucida Console, Courier New, Courier" size="2"><font color="#C0C0C0">You may smo
</font><font color="#804040">Angel Battle self-pity Ishin
shield strike Ishin
chasten Ishin stupidity
queue bal contemplate Ishin
</font><font color="#C0C0C0">ke another herb.
</font><font color="#FFFFFF">Ishin is afflicted with: </font><font color="#F5DEB3">weariness, </font><font color="#EE82EE">impatience, haemophilia, shadow, vomiting, </font><font color="#FFFF00">hellsight, </font><font color="#EE82EE">sensitivity, lethargy, fitness, deafness, clarity, </font><font color="#F5DEB3">hypochondria, </font><font color="#FF8C00">asthma, 
</font><font color="#96FF00">[100]</font><font color="#6600FC"> [99]</font><font color="#02FCFC"> E99</font><font color="#FFF9F9"> W98</font><font color="#1E1E1E"> B100</font><font color="#5A8054"> S100</font><font color="#9A4454"> Dev51</font><font color="#7C0086"> Spark59</font><font color="#28D700"> <<XP 84%>></font><font color="#FFFFFF"> [cspdb eb]</font><font color="#FF7777"> 3:5.846</font><font color="#FFFFFF"> -</font></font>

....wooooooooow. Pwned.

Ishin · April 2014

I'm not entirely sure how your commands wrecked the line like that, but um...that's hella weird bro.

Irruel · April 2014

Does magic_impaired affect mentis?

Serrice · April 2014

Magic_impaired just reduces the damage from a magic sourced attack to zero, but doesn't affect anything else iirc.

Moirean · April 2014

Yeah, magic_impaired is a deceptive and bad affliction. It's not a xentio mirror for magic attacks (although it should be) and instead just reduces magic damage by like 25%. Ie, pretty much never use colocasia.

Serrice · April 2014

100%. It negates it entirely, though that's changing in the next round. It's actually very useful against classes that rely heavily on damage.

Moirean · April 2014

On MAGIC damage. Ie, mages. Ie, holos or a locked state where they can staff you down (in which case you aren't delivering affs, period). The number really doesn't matter. People don't die from damage anymore except in teams or because they are excessively locked and setup first, in which case a small venom stack isn't even something you'll be able to put out. It is still incredibly useless, especially compared to the momentum killer xentio is.

Irruel · April 2014

Clumsiness is a -huge- help against physical affliction classes.
Unlike stupidity, you can't just spam your way through it like is often possible with stupidity (excepting secrets).

That said, it is first in the kelp stack, so I don't think it's unbalanced or anything.

But it'd be nice if, particularly with the paralysis and confusion changes coming up, I could have a way to slow mentis classes down a bit.

Oleis · April 2014

Irruel said:

But it'd be nice if, particularly with the paralysis and confusion changes coming up, I could have a way to slow mentis classes down a bit.

I know it's not exactly what you meant, but stupidity will prevent prone whispers (and telepathy) as part of the coming changes.

Irruel · April 2014

@oleis
Yeah. It really is difficult to predict how the changes will pan out until they go through.

From a purely theory-crafted angle though, I'm predicting that overall balance between classes will be thrown out of whack for a while, and I'm hoping you guys monitor it and make whatever tweaks are needed as each problem becomes obvious.

Oleis · April 2014

Irruel said:

@oleis
Yeah. It really is difficult to predict how the changes will pan out until they go through.

From a purely theory-crafted angle though, I'm predicting that overall balance between classes will be thrown out of whack for a while, and I'm hoping you guys monitor it and make whatever tweaks are needed as each problem becomes obvious.

Yeah, that's absolutely the name of the game. This round is only taking so hellishly long because we have so many reports to sift through. Implementing them all is trivial -- it's managing the interactions between each that gets to be so onerous and time-consuming. We'll be watching especially carefully, ready for quick fixes as needed and another round of in-depth assessments in the summertime.

Xiuhcoatl · April 2014

@Moirean and @Serrice Magic_Impaired also causes a bug against the skills Stonespike and Frostpike that changes them from an attack to a balance knock that does nothing besides knock the balance of the magi using it. So remember to never use those skills and go for the faster dagger route.

@Irruel You can understand exactly what changes are going to do before putting them in. This isn't an FPS, a complex RTS with different elevation levels, or something else where multiple factors can affect one person. The combat here is balanced around 1v1 and VERY VERY FEW abilities around teamfighting. If you can't understand what a change is going to do, you're either focusing on too many things or don't understand the current implementation and/or the intended change.

Aetolian combat is blindingly easy when you actually sit down and focus on what's going on. The hard part, which is the entry to combat outside of buying a plug and play offense, is understanding what curing balance is and how it works.

Serrice · April 2014

@Xiuhcoatl -- I'm not sure if you're joking or not. Stonespike and frostspike specifically are mentioned not to work at all if you have magic_impaired in the implementation notes. Effectively, yes, it would just be a balance knock.

Xiuhcoatl · April 2014

@Serrice, this is what happens when you have magic_impaired and stonespike

[spoiler]

You are weakened in the magical arts. How could you possibly conjure something so fierce?