Mechanics & RP (PK discussion)

Alistaire

It really doesn't, though. MKO and Aetolia are so far apart you can't even compare them.

Ezalor

Calipso said:

Moving on from "The life and times of Calipso".





I'd actually be very inclined if a more stable and developed PK and Cause system was introduced to Aetolia. Perhaps even reworking it completely (0 xp loss for player deaths?) in some fashion. Another idea is the ability to hire members of the Sect of the Blades for assassinations in revenge perhaps, for players that have no combat prowess but feel victimized and cant do anything about it.

I'm in complete disagreement with this. There are plenty of ways to RP just fine without having to enter into conflict. You can RP being a badass just fine -without- going and antagonizing people with it. It's not like @Illidan is going to randomly target you and go "YOU ARE A WEAKLING RAH RAH RAH" and force you to fight him. But if you go poke and prod at him, then he's well within his rights to come kill you and put you in your place.

If you go poke at people, belittle them, insult them, there are consequences. If you operate like everyone else is a drooling idiot compared to you, there are consequences. If you don't want conflict, don't seek it, it's as simple as that. If you do want conflict then don't whine when it comes for you.

People have spent countless hours coding systems and learning to fight to give their characters the ability to smack down people who piss them off. Taking away the rewards of all those hours just because some people don't have the ability/time to do the same is just silly. Death already means practically nothing mechanically, it's just a blow to the ego. If you want the ability to go toe-to-toe with these people who have spent countless hours on their systems then do the same yourself, don't try to seek admin and mechanic changes to put you on even footing with them.

EDIT: "You" as in a general you, not any specific person in particular.

Haven

Can we stop making this thread about Calipso?

Illikaal

I think you have it backwards, Haven. She's making it about herself. 

Edit: Also, for the umpteenth time. This isn't MKO. This isn't Imperian. This isn't Achaea. This isn't Lusternia. 

Ilyon

Calipso said:

I'd actually be very inclined if a more stable and developed PK and Cause system was introduced to Aetolia. Perhaps even reworking it completely (0 xp loss for player deaths?) in some fashion. Another idea is the ability to hire members of the Sect of the Blades for assassinations in revenge perhaps, for players that have no combat prowess but feel victimized and cant do anything about it.

Achaea removed all their rulebook and PK cause stuff semi-recently. Trying to establish a system that proved to be a failure over there would not be a good idea.

Ezalor

Haven said:

Can we stop making this thread about Calipso?

?_?

*magic*

Malok

This whole thing is just apples and oranges, really. People who have the advantage with gaming this system enjoy how it is, people who don't like dying or whatever don't like it. I know that most of us here have been playing these games for 9-10 years or close to it now, you'd think people would realize that it's just how it is. You do have to find a fine line of restraint though, or you risk driving off people from the game further. Personally, I'd be all for PK if it wasn't  'People who coded systems vs people who didn't code systems'. That stuff is so old and cheesy now, ain't nobody got time for that.

Just some thoughts. That aren't related to Calipso. :P

Konnorn

I have somewhat read through this thread and I have no idea if this point has anything to do with the initial issue, or if it was somthing that came up along the line, but here goes:

Some people -will- kill you for even opening your mouth in a shouting match, even if you are just telling people to quiet down. Happened to me once, after shouting that people were probably tired of someone's voice. Moments later, dead. And that was after a shouting match between several people, who were constantly insulting eachother, and the comment was towards someone who has set their costume shout as being an annoying one. The others were never harmed, but me, not being a pk'er got attackedin seconds.

Best thing to do is just try to keep out of it and if you shout, tell or send a message that does not agree with what that person thinks, be prepared to die. That's how it works 90% of the time.

Iosyne

Illidan said:

Talk shit to a God, and see if they care about your RP when they turn you into a pile of ash. 

Calipso

Ezalor said:

If you go poke at people, belittle them, insult them, Farsee them, there are consequences. If you operate like everyone else is a drooling idiot compared to you, there are consequences. If you don't want conflict, don't seek it, it's as simple as that. If you do want conflict then don't whine when it comes for you.

EDIT: "You" as in a general you, not any specific person in particular.

Just added a small point there. 10 points to who can find it.

Calipso

Illidan said:

I think you have it backwards, Haven. She's making it about herself. 

Edit: Also, for the umpteenth time. This isn't MKO. This isn't Imperian. This isn't Achaea. This isn't Lusternia. 

And it is currently known for having though some of the best RP, but worst trolling in it. I was alittle on the ropes joining at first form the stories I have heard.

Seir

I hear Iosyne likes it when you talk about unicorns to her.

And by that I mean actual unicorns. Not the censorship word.

Ezalor

Malok said:

This whole thing is just apples and oranges, really. People who have the advantage with gaming this system enjoy how it is, people who don't like dying or whatever don't like it. I know that most of us here have been playing these games for 9-10 years or close to it now, you'd think people would realize that it's just how it is. You do have to find a fine line of restraint though, or you risk driving off people from the game further. Personally, I'd be all for PK if it wasn't  'People who coded systems vs people who didn't code systems'. That stuff is so old and cheesy now, ain't nobody got time for that.

Just some thoughts. That aren't related to Calipso. :P

But...it isn't like that. I have never in all my years of playing Aetolia ever felt like not having a top tier system impacted my enjoyment of the game. I have never been griefed by anyone, never felt a "go into PK or the game sucks" sort of feeling. What do you expect when you go into "People who coded systems vs people who didn't code systems?" That's what it takes to get into top tier combat. If you don't have the ability/time, then you don't deserve to be there and reap the rewards. There are people who do have the ability/time and they don't deserve to lose all their hard work and gains because of some misplaced sense of entitlement from people who don't. They put in the work, they reap the rewards, they gain the ability to dominate conflict.

There's some idea that you get griefed for doing anything, which simply isn't true. The people getting "griefed" are usually doing something to deserve it and instigate conflict. I don't RP a weak character by any means and I've never found an inability to fight gets in the way of this.

Toz

Calipso said:

Xavin said:

...0xp loss for being pk'd. What. What is this I don't even.


So basically what you're saying is you support a system where there is absolutely no drawback for losing a fight and, therefore, absolutely no reason to actually watch what you say to people who you -know- are tougher than you?

Wow, what a wonderful way to make pk completely irrelevant.

seems to work for MKO. Just saying.

All two of the players, maybe. I played Achaea, but I'm going to use Bonko, because he'd get a kick out of me repeating this story, I think.

Bonko had a lawyer answer his issues, or at least some of the more extreme ones. He was also a law student himself, I think I recall him saying. Aetolia works well. Infinitely better than Achaea.The reason for this is simple- there's a 'talk shit get hit' feedback. If you want to not get hit, quit pitting Duiran/exterminating/raiding/shouting/taunting/whatever it is that is causing people to pk you. I've not seen someone pull as much aggro as you in a long time, and there's no way you're entirely in the dark about it - the pk system works. In fact, it's almost proven that it works, because of this thread. You don't like what's happening as a result of your IC actions, but instead of taking the lesson that's supposed to convey (quit doing it), you want to change the system. Or at least, that's what it seems like - instead, I'd suggest just calming down.

Tanris was brought up as someone who lost his mind when he lost a fight - dunno if that was more recent when I played, but he was actually one of the best people around at moderation, when I knew him. You figure out when you're driving someone nuts, and you lay off. If people are ganking you, you're probably stepping on toes. If people are shouting/sending you tells/challenging you to duels, then you're doing just about the right amount. If people are leaving you alone, you can probably step up your game a bit.

Apologies for any points I addressed that are a little...dated - I don't forums nearly as much as I used to.

EDIT: typo and someone misspelled 'Achaea' when discussing which IRE game has the worst trolling.

Valenae

Haven said:

Valenae said:

But see, that's the problem - I catch myself doing this a lot too, dehumanizing people by slapping a label on them and not addressing valid concerns that could otherwise help build a cohesive organization. All of the people you play the game with are just that - people - and they deserve to not only be respected, but listened to and addressed as a valid part of the community. 

So, I'll treat you with respect and I'll give you all the due all people should get but if you demean me and mistreat me without giving me that respect, I'll send a signal to let you know I don't like it and I don't think that should be considered 'poking the bear' (lol@socialrolesofcompleteentilement). 

I... might be misinterpreting what it is that you're saying here so please do correct me if I'm wrong. However, there is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE difference between what goes on and what should be acceptable in-character and out-of-character. If my character demeans your character, disrespects your character, whatever that by no means is an indication of how I, the player, feel towards you, the player. Only an indication of what my character feels towards your character in their given roles. To that end, I see no wrong in inequality, evil, injustice, blah, blah, blah whatever. If that's the kind of environment my character is trying to foster then it is perfectly within my right to do so to establish the role I'm going for. Just like it's perfectly within your character's right to be offended/resist/fight against that if it's something they do not believe in. That's one of the beauties of role-play. We're all playing roles and I personally find it interesting to see which ideals rise and fall in the environments we all establish and which ones stand the test of time. It seems odd to me that you expect the same rights out-of-character to apply at all times in-character in a role-playing game. Again, if I'm wrong in how I interpreted your passage please correct me.

It'd be like Jamie Foxx playing the role of Django and being upset with Leonardo DiCaprio playing the role of Calvin Candie (a brutal slave owner in the Southern USA prior to the civil war) for the atrocities committed by Mr. Candie in the movie Django. The conflict is strictly between Django and Calvin, the characters; Not Jamie and Leo, the actors/players.

The first comment in the post you've quoted is aimed at Daskalos's bolded comment: but usually those 'intellectual posts' are just high brow insults when they come from the look down their nose at you RP squad.

That's aimed at the perception that the ooc community is divided and how that carries into character interaction. 

My other point isn't that you SHOULDN'T roleplay 'evil' characters that demean and degrade characters, I'm saying that there are ic consequences to that and a lot of times it leads to stagnant/cliquey organizations and bad blood oocly. Just know what you're walking into. For example, I've stabbed a knife through Haven's hand icly. I knew that could possibly lead to city leader interruption if anyone found out but luckily that never happened. If I got, I dunno, thrown out of Enorian I wouldn't have jumped on forums to ridicule leadership. Consequences are a part of roleplay. 

Fenrir

And then you get Calipso flagging Daskalos as a troll just because she doesn't like what he said.

Illikaal

Calipso said:

Ezalor said:

If you go poke at people, belittle them, insult them, Farsee them, there are consequences. If you operate like everyone else is a drooling idiot compared to you, there are consequences. If you don't want conflict, don't seek it, it's as simple as that. If you do want conflict then don't whine when it comes for you.

EDIT: "You" as in a general you, not any specific person in particular.

Just added a small point there. 10 points to who can find it.

I think I'm about to score 100. 

The man (yes, the man) that you so frequently keep bringing up was insistent to spam farsight on me. I asked her (the character) to stop. Thrice. The person said "lol I don't know what you're talking about" and continued to do so. The very second I said, "Alright. I'll just kill you then." an issue was filed within 1 minute of the threat being sent out. Of course, I had no real intention of killing someone for simply spamming farsight, as that's what we like to call 'flimsy reasoning'. Not only that, but it would be an incredibly stupid reason to kill someone in the first place. But, the two things that did surprise me most were 1. How quickly the person jumped to an issue saying they were being 'constantly griefed' by me, when that would have been the first time I'd even remotely associated with said person in QUITE a while, if ever. and 2. That the person instantaneously stopped using farsight. 

Valenae

Before people post they should stop and ask themselves- "Does this add anything to the conversation?" 

Calipso

im just going to step out of this conversation since it seems to be focused on my character.

Carry on with the discussion of mechanics plz.

Seir

This thread almost seems like it has run its course.

Ezalor

As for farsee, is it really that important for you to know where someone is all the time? You know they can see it when you farsee them, you know they don't like it. So...don't do it if you don't want conflict? I don't think not knowing where Daskalos or Illidan or Tyrak or someone like that is is going to destroy enjoyment of Aetolia.

Sure, one farsee does not = PK but when you're spamming it insistently, especially on someone who has a hood, isn't it your intention to poke at that person anyways? And that really does invite them to poke back.

Seir

@Ezalor: I think mass consensus is that the hood offers a pretty ridiculous advantage in not being able to be scried unless you fork over 2000 credits. That kind of advantage is huge in nearly any PvP situation. Now, with the introduction of an artifact that will alert you when you're being scried (a la Aethersight in Lusternia), it's a bit too strong. All Lusternia has is aethersight and gem of cloaking, which is fine in itself.

Ezalor

Right, and I agree with that, but that isn't the point here. I highly doubt something as innocent as a single farsight use is going to push anyone to PK.

Illikaal

Ezalor said:

As for farsee, is it really that important for you to know where someone is all the time? You know they can see it when you farsee them, you know they don't like it. So...don't do it if you don't want conflict? I don't think not knowing where Daskalos or Illidan or Tyrak or someone like that is is going to destroy enjoyment of Aetolia.

Sure, one farsee does not = PK but when you're spamming it insistently, especially on someone who has a hood, isn't it your intention to poke at that person anyways? And that really does invite them to poke back.

As annoying as it is (with dis OP bracer), I still wouldn't ever use it as a reason to PK someone. I just like to toss out threats just to see what happens. 

Instead, I'd probably just contact an Admin as I'm pretty sure that goes against the HELP SPAM rule. 

Rivas

This THREAD is pushing me to PK. Jesus.

Valenae

Haven said:

...I hadn't realized this thread was about Calipso and her escapades. Use the self-affirmation page for the character if there is one or take it to AIM or something if she's welcomed it. Otherwise I'm not certain how it correlates or is appropriate to this discussion.

Anyway, I dislike the idea that mechanics and role-play are separate entities to be valued above the other because it makes discussions like these and even in-game interactions seem like a war between the real world and the game world. Scripting, the game's limits, personal short-comings, etc versus the actual story at hand taking place. The simple fact is (I think @Phoenecia said it best, so I'll use that) they reinforce each other. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

We, as a community (both powergamers and non alike), need to stop dismissing or labeling the 'other side' as inferior. Hell, we need to stop drawing lines in the sand in the first place and accept and acknowledge that we are parts of a single whole. Vastly different parts in some cases but parts of a single whole all the same. We are all playing roles here and it is imperative that we learn to recognize each other's role and respect that. Not only that but we also need to learn to respect the very role that we are playing.

That means if you want to role-play a successful "badass" (for those that do not know, that means a tough and or aggressive person) then you need to respect the boundaries that entails. There are many different types of "badass" that range from the battlefield to the political scene. If you want to be a badass politician then stick to that environment. You should not be complaining that your badassery there does not directly extend to the battlefield where physical prowess is the name of the game. In that same vein, if you are a badass soldier then you should also not expect your badassery on the battlefield to directly extend to the political scene where intellect, influence, and word-play are largely the name of the game.

Hell yes! 

My argument is that skill isn't the same as badassery and that badassery is largely fluid but with the same foundational concept of bravery and boldness so I meet your definition of every 'field' in the game has its own badassery. I also agree that people (obviously) have different skill sets. 

Moirean

ITT: Don't get the farsee alert artifact?

More seriously, I do know how easy it is to be a jerk and just kill people who upset you, and claim "It's RP, they insulted me." I've also been ejected from most cities, cursed and banned, so....! Push your RP as much as you want, but be aware that there are limits, both IC and with the admin.

Edhain

I like the PK rules of Aetolia. I think in Aetolia PK and RP coexist very well, as seen by the excellent comments by people like @Haven, @Phoenecia, and @Daskalos - not to mention my initial agreement with @Seir's approach. 

@Illidan: I found that story about farseeing to be both amusing and enlightening. Kept wondering why it was coming up so much. It's so annoying when people issue off the bat like that, and it seems like a valid reason to make a threat or even attack someone (depending on how far it goes), at least to me.

@Valenae: I agree with you on your idea of what constitutes a badass. But a lot of the time, when people say badass, they mean 'good fighter'. It seems to be more of disagreement on definition than anything else there.  A 'badass' is someone who even though they might not fight well, understands that they might have to take the heat for their words and stands up for what they believe in anyway.

@Calipso: I liked you at first (from your opinion on complete character automation to our small RP session), so even though it seems like you made a careless statement of trying to make Aetolia more like Achaea, I'm going to give you another chance to solidify/destroy your good impression.

Valenae

@Edhain: I agree that the mechanical rules of Aetolia are pretty good. I mean, I don't really have an issue with the way Aetolia is constructed in a mechanical sense; I have an issue with the social norms I've illustrated points against in my posts. I wanted to make sure I was clear in communicating that. 

I'm glad you see badassery the same way I do but the link between the way people see badass conduct in the game is that it is what leads to mixed priorities in some organizations that is carried into the ooc community. 

Edhain

Hmm good point there about social norms.