Mechanics & RP (PK discussion)

Aarbrok

One interaction with Calipso was all I needed, Aarbrok often came defending you when people attack you at our gates , actually experiencing how you interact with others in later happenings, was enough for me to second guess doing that again. You can shout at them and call the savages, offer witty retorts, even un-witty ones.

Thing is they will come after you, the City is not a forcefield of defenders to protect you like bodyguards, and I feel after hearing the side of others stories in recent raids and events, that this is more or less how you use the function of city defense.

Another Note:

 If you would listen more to what is going on, you would know Aarbrok was asking the diplomat if we: Meaning Spinesreach should bring something to the Pious wards as an offering to the Delvians for their kindness of allowing us to enter the wards.  A role of the City leadership to be diplomatic and friendly something Aarbrok is not completely great at.  I assure you though, Calipso seemed to feel you had to tell me how to do my job as a city leader.  Perhaps my character will respond a bit different to your character in the future.

That being said, Aarbrok does not know Calipso very well, but you certainly have not found yourself getting on a good foot with your "know-it-all" attitude.  

Xavin

What Illidan is saying is that word gets around, too. Basically, if you do something stupid and tick enough people off, others are going to end up knowing about it and you'll quickly get a reputation.

Seir

Posted this in rage after the thread was moved:

Again, that's not to say that we dislike you or you're forever shunned. It's just that as fellow players, we don't want you to wind up going down a negative road. It's constructive criticism regarding your character and peer review, something we are pretty known for in Aetolia with affirmations.

Unlike other games, I like to think we have a pretty welcoming and forgiving community. I, for one, used to be a giant asshat once I let the fact that I was decent at PvP get to my head and allow OOC drama to fuel my character's actions. Since then, I've come back and been pretty laid back and chill on a whole and many others whom I once had troublesome relationships with have been pretty accepting in return. (Though I still hate most of you. Jerks.)

I actually have a trigger in my system for when and if I die that will basically play a semi-IC message not to get mad about the death, look at it as a learning experience and move on. Worst thing you can do in Aetolia is start raging about skills, how bugged something is, or make excuses as to why you lost.

Aarbrok

Illidan is right, Senators of Spinesreach hear just as much about your Shenanigans as the fighters of Duiran likely do, its the effect of your actions representing the CIty as a whole.

Edited for accuracy.

Seir

As far as I know, the Benandanti don't care. It's the fighters who just look at it as an in-character justification to go bounty hunting.

Angwe

/takes off troll pants

@Calipso, I personally was surprised and pleased that you listed me as a person who doesn't grief you. I would have assumed that the regular killings are exactly what you're talking about.

With that sort of assumption in mind, it might be beneficial to the conversation if you give an (careful and without naming names or calling anyone out) example of what sort of griefy behavior you mean. (I know this thread isn't about you, don't mean to push it in that direction).

Illikaal

I wish I could be a goodguy like Seir. 

Sadly, I'm not as receptive/cool about dealing with stupidity as he is. And i'm not even trolling. 

Damonicus

I think this thread has gone long enough. Points have been made and sides have spoken. All it will turn into now is just attacks and counter attacks.

Angwe

Illidan said:

I'm not even trolling. 

Valenae gon flag you anyway

Seir

Well, even I have my rage-y moments. I get really miffed when non-combatants get targeted or I get teamed repeatedly looking for a duel. I just try not to let it affect me as much, or I'll yell at my cat. She's a jerk and deserves it anyway though. Ultimately, it comes down to reputation. For example, someone like Clouser will never get a fair fight. He targeted non-combatants, talked a lot of smack, ran away at the slightest hint that he would lose, and gamed "tactics" that are largely considered lame  by the community on a whole (looking at you hunger). If, however, you start demonstrating that you've got a reasonable head on your shoulders, politely talk to people on the other side, and your character only resorts to insults when someone from the other side starts dishing them out, I can guarantee you that your Aet experience will become infinitely better.

Case in point, I've noticed that Bloodloch and Spinesreach have had the opportunities on more than one occasion to team me but they haven't because I've been keeping a pretty positive reputation, or so I've heard.

Calipso

Illidan said:

Edit: Well since we're in our own thread now!

You don't have to have direct contact with someone to hear about their foolish shenanigans, you know. Just like I wasn't there to see you drop a Pit at the Core of Duiran. Yet, I somehow magically know it happened. 

Good times, Good times.

Edit: You forgot the part where I snuck in and assassinated your bounty mob. I think that was somewhat poetic in a way.

Calipso

Aarbrok said:

Illidan is right, Senators of Spinesreach hear just as much about your Shenanigans as the fighters of Duiran likely do, its the effect of your actions representing the CIty as a whole.

Edited for accuracy.

If what you're saying is you will attempt to use this on Calipso to get some form of payback for her disrespecting you in public, then i'd actually like to see the Spinians reactions to attempting to remove one of the more active citizens for attacking an enemy org. GL :P.

Illikaal

Calipso said:

Illidan said:

Edit: Well since we're in our own thread now!

You don't have to have direct contact with someone to hear about their foolish shenanigans, you know. Just like I wasn't there to see you drop a Pit at the Core of Duiran. Yet, I somehow magically know it happened. 

Good times, Good times.

Edit: You forgot the part where I snuck in and assassinated your bounty mob. I think that was somewhat poetic in a way.

Or perhaps, maybe you forgot the part where dropping a pit within a City, especially at an unofficial town center is illegal. 

Seir

Calipso said:

Illidan said:

Edit: Well since we're in our own thread now!

You don't have to have direct contact with someone to hear about their foolish shenanigans, you know. Just like I wasn't there to see you drop a Pit at the Core of Duiran. Yet, I somehow magically know it happened. 

Good times, Good times.

Edit: You forgot the part where I snuck in and assassinated your bounty mob. I think that was somewhat poetic in a way.

This is basically the behavior we're trying to point out that you should change. This isn't Achaea.

I say that as someone who used to play there and dealt with the asinine people like Tanris who would fly off the handle if they ever lost a fight because of their ego.

Killing NPC's in an org isn't really a big deal. Being able to lead a group, kill some of the big name fighters on the other side, and being there to help others learn how to fight and defend themselves is what establishes a reputation as a talented fighter.

Calipso

Angwe said:

/takes off troll pants

@Calipso, I personally was surprised and pleased that you listed me as a person who doesn't grief you. I would have assumed that the regular killings are exactly what you're talking about.

With that sort of assumption in mind, it might be beneficial to the conversation if you give an (careful and without naming names or calling anyone out) example of what sort of griefy behavior you mean. (I know this thread isn't about you, don't mean to push it in that direction).

Well one situation (and this was when I was a generally new player to Aet and not even interested in combat) was when I was still around circle 50 and apparently got on the bad-side of a player because I made him get confused with my citizenship. After some retorts back and forth, I pointed out them acting like a dunce and was hunted down for the next RL month. Even after warning them to leave me alone, telling them I want no interaction with them, even placing them on Ignore, they refused to stop. Eventually I needed to get a third party involved, a friend of mine who is very diplomatic, and after speaking with this person she even admitted that he is by far one of the unagreeable people she has ever met and proceeded to put him on ignore as well. That is one of my definitions of trolling and abusive harassment, in that you are forcing your playing and actions onto another player that wants no buisness with you.

As for @Angwe, I actually enjoy interactions with him, they are fun! It actually feels like a Hero vs Villian role, and the traps he sets out to catch calipso make me lol when I fall for them. You also put alot of work into explaining yourself and even messaged me OOC that if it is getting out of hand to please tell you so that you can let up a bit. I think perhaps those experiences were one of the few that made me decide to actually stick around and give Aet another shot.

Angwe

You killed Shura?

Calipso

Illidan said:

Calipso said:

Illidan said:

Edit: Well since we're in our own thread now!

You don't have to have direct contact with someone to hear about their foolish shenanigans, you know. Just like I wasn't there to see you drop a Pit at the Core of Duiran. Yet, I somehow magically know it happened. 

Good times, Good times.

Edit: You forgot the part where I snuck in and assassinated your bounty mob. I think that was somewhat poetic in a way.

Or perhaps, maybe you forgot the part where dropping a pit within a City, especially at an unofficial town center is illegal. 

You'd know all about illegal actions now wouldnt you .

Dont worry, I never do anything without planning ahead and saw that there were only 2 defenders there during my little incursion. P.S: No deaths, thus no issues. :*

Seir said:

Calipso said:

Illidan said:

Edit: Well since we're in our own thread now!

You don't have to have direct contact with someone to hear about their foolish shenanigans, you know. Just like I wasn't there to see you drop a Pit at the Core of Duiran. Yet, I somehow magically know it happened. 

Good times, Good times.

Edit: You forgot the part where I snuck in and assassinated your bounty mob. I think that was somewhat poetic in a way.

This is basically the behavior we're trying to point out that you should change. This isn't Achaea.

I say that as someone who used to play there and dealt with the asinine people like Tanris who would fly off the handle if they ever lost a fight because of their ego.

Killing NPC's in an org isn't really a big deal. Being able to lead a group, kill some of the big name fighters on the other side, and being there to help others learn how to fight and defend themselves is what establishes a reputation as a talented fighter.

mm yes I'm beginning to sense that. Coming from a strongly combat focused game like Achaea where it has solid book-bound PK rules, I can see there is alot of different concepts of PK mechanics here, as well as raiding.

Rivas

Calipso said:

P.S: No deaths, thus no issues. :*

Forgive me if I misunderstood this, but I just wanted to point out: If you're "raiding" (invading a city to which you are enemied), and you cause hijinks and kill mobs and drop Pits or whatever...even if NO ONE FROM THE CITY DIES, if you don't die during the raid you can still get hunted/bountied for that. You know that, right?

Also, while raiding (once you've entered an enemy city, you're technically considered to be "raiding") you can't just attack ANYONE, they have to be actively defending. And since you're responsible for your own skills at all times...if you throw a Pit in a communal meeting point (unless I misunderstood the earlier references, I think that's what happened) and someone dies from that Pit...you can easily be issued. That's against the rules.


This is all in HELP PK. Administration says "everything is case-by-case basis", but there ARE some set rules for things like raiding and bounties and whatnot.

Seir

Indiscriminate pitting is an issuable offense. This was discussed and deliberated before you played.

It was decided by the administration since Clouser did it before you and it lead to novices and the like being killed.

You need a reason to kill someone during a raid though, yeah. Can't just attack anyone. They have to be actively defending.

Just as a side note, you should be trying to avoid anything that Clouser did.

Illikaal

I was already convinced she was Clouser's little sister, or something

Haven

...I hadn't realized this thread was about Calipso and her escapades. Use the self-affirmation page for the character if there is one or take it to AIM or something if she's welcomed it. Otherwise I'm not certain how it correlates or is appropriate to this discussion.

Anyway, I dislike the idea that mechanics and role-play are separate entities to be valued above the other because it makes discussions like these and even in-game interactions seem like a war between the real world and the game world. Scripting, the game's limits, personal short-comings, etc versus the actual story at hand taking place. The simple fact is (I think @Phoenecia said it best, so I'll use that) they reinforce each other. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

We, as a community (both powergamers and non alike), need to stop dismissing or labeling the 'other side' as inferior. Hell, we need to stop drawing lines in the sand in the first place and accept and acknowledge that we are parts of a single whole. Vastly different parts in some cases but parts of a single whole all the same. We are all playing roles here and it is imperative that we learn to recognize each other's role and respect that. Not only that but we also need to learn to respect the very role that we are playing.

That means if you want to role-play a successful "badass" (for those that do not know, that means a tough and or aggressive person) then you need to respect the boundaries that entails. There are many different types of "badass" that range from the battlefield to the political scene. If you want to be a badass politician then stick to that environment. You should not be complaining that your badassery there does not directly extend to the battlefield where physical prowess is the name of the game. In that same vein, if you are a badass soldier then you should also not expect your badassery on the battlefield to directly extend to the political scene where intellect, influence, and word-play are largely the name of the game.

Xavin

The interesting thing is that this isn't the first misunderstanding of Aetolia's pk rules that has come up in recent days.

Suggestion: back down a bit and actually learn the rules that we have here before trying to say you know them. No, you can't indiscriminately pit, just like it would be against the rules to indiscriminately drop holocausts or singularities over communal spots when you raid. Yes, we can bounty you for each loyal mob you kill, though we don't typically bounty for every single one. Guards are the exception to that, because guards are killed during raids, though that sort of thing is judged by severity.

Valenae

Daskalos said:

 writing a post that intellectually outlines their

Just a comment on this, but usually those 'intellectual posts' are just high brow insults when they come from the look down their nose at you RP squad - and that's just going to tick off the other person more and make you more likely to get PK'd. One of the underlying issues is that one side thinks they're right all the time, even if they're not, and so they keep going 'he's a loudmouth, I called him a loudmouth, he can't kill me for the truth!' - when yes, in fact, they can, because they might not believe themselves to be a loudmouth and view it as an insult.

Again, if you don't want to be PK'd, don't poke the bear.

But see, that's the problem - I catch myself doing this a lot too, dehumanizing people by slapping a label on them and not addressing valid concerns that could otherwise help build a cohesive organization. All of the people you play the game with are just that - people - and they deserve to not only be respected, but listened to and addressed as a valid part of the community. 

So, I'll treat you with respect and I'll give you all the due all people should get but if you demean me and mistreat me without giving me that respect, I'll send a signal to let you know I don't like it and I don't think that should be considered 'poking the bear' (lol@socialrolesofcompleteentilement). 

As I've already communicated, I don't think that anyone is above the expectation of treating people with that minut amount of respect. And if you're part of an organization, and yes - this goes for people who are more rp oriented as well - you treat people with less than the respect that human being deserves either icly or oocly then don't get surprised when you see someone act against you. However, if someone is treated with a basic sense of decency and he/she acts out with negative, unprovoked intent (the GM example I cited can be applied here) - they are not doing what is the most productive, mature thing to do in the moment and that will cause more negative responses. 

@Phoenecia: Regardless of whether or not it appears to be minor to you, it's still major to them and that's the thing you have to understand while interacting with people outside of your usual clique. Sure, maybe that one disrespectful comment [which is in the case completely fictional] was something you said in the heat of the moment but to them its a disrespectful comment that tears down part of their self confidence or is a repeat offense that has gone unnoticed by you and they want to feel validated. If you go into it thinking, 'Oh. This is just minor and you're overreacting' instead of meeting them halfway in an attempt to resolve the issue then you can't be surprised when it has unwanted/unexpected results. 

@Daskalos So, I can't account for every SINGLE POST that people have written over the years but I'll cite another example to make my point: 

If there is a clique in the guild and you go to pretty much every leader and you say 'I don't like this measure being taken in the guild, I don't agree with the way -person- is treated.' and that makes YOU a target as a result, even though you tried your best to communicate and do it effectively as to respect everyone's personal boundaries to have yourself deranked and you feel like the only way to explain adequately without the people in leadership to dismiss you on face value while other people are being affected by the same problem is to write a respectful, yet blunt and to the point post - how is that not justified? I find that action to be perfectly acceptable because it draws them out into the public eye and makes them answer for what they've done without denying them the respect every person is entitled to. There are differences and to write off the posts you don't agree with is toxic for an organization and only promotes and maintains an air of stagnancy. Because, you know what, if you only respect people you agree with you're going to be stuck with a small amount of people who agree with you and lot of people who have left or are alting who have little to no respect for you and how does that help YOUR gaming experience or the progression of YOUR organization? If you want to rp a character that takes advantage of people, makes them feel like less than what they are - that's okay, I guess. Just understand that may have consequences. 

On another note, I'm not trying to diminish the role PK plays in Aetolia. I'm not saying rp is more superior, I don't agree that mechanics trump personal responsibility, that's it. I also don't think that rps need or should need a combatant to pat their ass. The point I'm making is that badass ! =- powerful skill. Badass is in the resolve of that person and the way they communicate. As an example, I don't particularly like Daskalos and its really no secret but he has had some badass moments like defending a village way back when because it was the right thing to do. THAT'S badass and all people have badass moments. 

However, I've seen non-coms stand-up to people they knew they couldn't beat in a physical confrontation and say, 'I don't like this action. Leave that person alone' and they were killed in Enorian AS CITIZENS OF ENORIAN under another Vanguard. It doesn't mean the fighter who killed them was a badass, it means they literally had zero communication tools to deal with anything other than killing that person and how is that praised above a person taking a stance against something they knew was wrong? 

tl;dr: I feel like some people have their priorities mixed up. 

Daskalos

But, to counter your point and I'll use an example from the sales side: 90% of your time is spent dealing with 10% of your clients who tend to be the most vocal. Take for instance the recent Syssin drama in Enorian - there was a vocal minority going 'hey, this should be allowed' to the point that the Council said 'ok, let's put it to the citizens to vote'. I raised a stink about it and the vote happened and it turns out that by a 3:1 margin the citizens -didn't agree.

And, honestly, once you become labeled as a complainer, it's hard to shake that label even if you have a valid point. It's something I have to be careful about and probably have tipped the scales against me on more than one occasion with the administration because when I feel strongly against something, I don't generally back down. That being said,sometimes you have to realize that just because it's something you want it may not be best for everyone, or the role of a particular organization.

Also, @Valenae, and this is something that bugged me but Valenae came back to Enorian as a humble 'I messed up when I left' person, and then later turned around and started attacking people. If you're referring to your place in the guild, I think your trouble began when as a Squire you tried to charge a Knight with being dishonorable. That single incident is what lead to everything that has happened in the Templars.

Would I ever kill a citizen? Probably not. Have I thought about it? Yep.

 

Also, @Calipso, you may be 'active' and all of that for Spinesreach, but there comes a point that what you bring to the table is outweighed by the negatives you bring. I'd be cautious if you want to stay in Spinesreach to avoid tipping that particular scale, because I really, really doubt Duiran or Enorian would take Calipso the character at this point. Don't want to see you end up without guards to sit and taunt behind!

 

Valenae

Illidan said:

Silly Seir. She was trying to RP her dominance over you. How dare you PK her for that, you socially inept asshat. 

Edit: What IS stupid is the fact that people seem to think that they can RP their way out of any situation. Mechanics > RP since the beginning of time. Talk shit to a God, and see if they care about your RP when they turn you into a pile of ash. 

@Angwe: I flagged Illidan because the statement I've bolded was largely inflammatory and disrespectful for the purpose of a gaining a funny that wasn't terribly productive. So, yes, I will flag you if you post something that is meant to be inflammatory without adding anything to the conversation other than an unjustified snrk which is exactly what trolling is, which is what I flagged him for. 

EDIT: @Daskalos: I don't know what you're referring to when you say, 'Valenae started attacking people'. Like, I'm trying to remember specific examples but to be honest with you, I don't want to get into a slap fight over generalities which is why when I post I cite specific instances to avoid miscommunication. So, I dunno, if you want to float specific times when you've felt that way - I'll answer them. 

In regards to the roleplay surrounding Saybre, I don't want this thread to devolve into petty bs but because of the action Val took, she was able to draw out Saybre and they had a really good conversation that got rid of a lot of the bad blood between them so I would say it was more productive than destructive and allowed them to dodge what Val saw as a oncoming boil-over. Honestly, I've left that in the game and while Saybre isn't her favoriate person I don't see there still being a feud icly. So I guess I'm missing your point? 

Ezalor

Seir said:

I know that your character is important to you and some of you feel that they are infallible and that they're the main character in your eyes. I'm not even going to comment on what is wrong with that as it's something you'll likely need to discover on your own during the course of playing Aet. Just my rant.

The "main character of Aetolia" role is taken by @Mazzion already!

Calipso

Moving on from "The life and times of Calipso".





I'd actually be very inclined if a more stable and developed PK and Cause system was introduced to Aetolia. Perhaps even reworking it completely (0 xp loss for player deaths?) in some fashion. Another idea is the ability to hire members of the Sect of the Blades for assassinations in revenge perhaps, for players that have no combat prowess but feel victimized and cant do anything about it.

Haven

Valenae said:

But see, that's the problem - I catch myself doing this a lot too, dehumanizing people by slapping a label on them and not addressing valid concerns that could otherwise help build a cohesive organization. All of the people you play the game with are just that - people - and they deserve to not only be respected, but listened to and addressed as a valid part of the community. 

So, I'll treat you with respect and I'll give you all the due all people should get but if you demean me and mistreat me without giving me that respect, I'll send a signal to let you know I don't like it and I don't think that should be considered 'poking the bear' (lol@socialrolesofcompleteentilement). 

I... might be misinterpreting what it is that you're saying here so please do correct me if I'm wrong. However, there is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE difference between what goes on and what should be acceptable in-character and out-of-character. If my character demeans your character, disrespects your character, whatever that by no means is an indication of how I, the player, feel towards you, the player. Only an indication of what my character feels towards your character in their given roles. To that end, I see no wrong in inequality, evil, injustice, blah, blah, blah whatever. If that's the kind of environment my character is trying to foster then it is perfectly within my right to do so to establish the role I'm going for. Just like it's perfectly within your character's right to be offended/resist/fight against that if it's something they do not believe in. That's one of the beauties of role-play. We're all playing roles and I personally find it interesting to see which ideals rise and fall in the environments we all establish and which ones stand the test of time. It seems odd to me that you expect the same rights out-of-character to apply at all times in-character in a role-playing game. Again, if I'm wrong in how I interpreted your passage please correct me.

It'd be like Jamie Foxx playing the role of Django and being upset with Leonardo DiCaprio playing the role of Calvin Candie (a brutal slave owner in the Southern USA prior to the civil war) for the atrocities committed by Mr. Candie in the movie Django. The conflict is strictly between Django and Calvin, the characters; Not Jamie and Leo, the actors/players.

Xavin

...0xp loss for being pk'd. What. What is this I don't even.


So basically what you're saying is you support a system where there is absolutely no drawback for losing a fight and, therefore, absolutely no reason to actually watch what you say to people who you -know- are tougher than you?

Wow, what a wonderful way to make pk completely irrelevant.

Calipso

Xavin said:

...0xp loss for being pk'd. What. What is this I don't even.


So basically what you're saying is you support a system where there is absolutely no drawback for losing a fight and, therefore, absolutely no reason to actually watch what you say to people who you -know- are tougher than you?

Wow, what a wonderful way to make pk completely irrelevant.

seems to work for MKO. Just saying.