Mechanics & RP (PK discussion)

Haven

This discussion was created from comments split from: Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE.

Seir

Woke up to angry message on Seir this morning regarding a person that will go unnamed that I killed last night.

This isn't directed towards anyone, but I'm sure a lot of people who participate in PvP like myself feel this way: I'm not here to cause you untold grief or remove your enjoyment from the game because I killed your character. Unlike other MUD's, Aetolia has a pretty big emphasis on roleplay and this ties into PvP, at least with me it does. My character is a savage and a warrior and it is in his very nature to fight and defend that which he considers home. It is also in his roleplay to go after someone who shouts insults at him from the comfort of their city. You are responsible for the actions of your character, just as I am responsible for the act of killing yours in retribution for the insult. However, please don't mistake what my character does as an endorsement on my end of wanting to make your playing experience bad. One death is not a big deal and can be shrugged off with a bashing trip.

Edit: As a side note, I'd like to mention that Seir has been pretty civil to his enemies lately provided they do the same. He has apologized for unintentionally hitting non-combatants with his howls, even going as far to offer them curatives so they can leave.

What I will say is this: if your character does not fight or isn't exactly known for martial prowess, you probably shouldn't be goading, insulting, or carrying your character as part of the "super strong badass" trope when there's no foundation for it in your roleplay. Even if I'm roleplaying a fight, there's no reason that Seir would expect to lose to some young vampire. However, there's sufficient reason that if I was roleplaying a fight with someone like Tyrak or Daskalos that would easily give him a run for his money and that he could lose. I know that your character is important to you and some of you feel that they are infallible and that they're the main character in your eyes. I'm not even going to comment on what is wrong with that as it's something you'll likely need to discover on your own during the course of playing Aet. Just my rant.

Illikaal

A to the mother fucking men. 

Daskalos

It goes back to what I've said before - those who RP a badass without actually being able to back it up are just posers. And shouldn't whine and complain when the way they RP comes back to haunt them.

Seir

There is one badass that we all aspire to be and that is...


Didi.

Valenae

I think if someone rps that they can physically take you down when they have no physical prowess - its silly and ineffective. However, I do not agree that all strength and badassness resides in how effective of a combatant you are. I think its very possible to rp having strength of character, integrity, and boldness without ever engaging in what can be seen as excessive physical confrontation. I think disregarding the potential of a non-com in social situations icly is ignorant and ineffective. If someone wants to challenge you intellectually and your response is to simply kill them in order to win the argument you haven't won - you just look like a socially inept asshat. 

Calipso

Seir said:

Woke up to angry message on Seir this morning regarding a person that will go unnamed that I killed last night.

This isn't directed towards anyone, but I'm sure a lot of people who participate in PvP like myself feel this way: I'm not here to cause you untold grief or remove your enjoyment from the game because I killed your character. Unlike other MUD's, Aetolia has a pretty big emphasis on roleplay and this ties into PvP, at least with me it does. My character is a savage and a warrior and it is in his very nature to fight and defend that which he considers home. It is also in his roleplay to go after someone who shouts insults at him from the comfort of their city.

Edit: As a side note, I'd like to mention that Seir has been pretty civil to his enemies lately provided they do the same. He has apologized for unintentionally hitting non-combatants with his howls, even going as far to offer them curatives so they can leave.

And here in lies one of the biggest issues i've encountered with Aetolia's PK system.

What is deemable as an insult? Is it something they said that offended you personally on some level that others wouldnt care for? Did they question your intellectual level, your character being a savage, and in regard to that you felt offended? Was it an act they did such as farseeing you that you felt -insulted- by? The list goes on, and trust me, I have seen some pretty stupid excuses for 'insults'.

The fact of the matter is yes Aetolia is a game with heavy emphasis on Roleplay, and these characters you speak of wish to play a sinister and dark character as part of a storyline, but the concept of  them being beaten on, thrashed about, and generally trolled for saying any comment or doing any act that is taken as 'an insult', makes the very experience they came for unpleasant. This is not directed at you though, in my experience Seir is actually a player that has restraint and attempts to give meaning to his 'hunts'. Other known individuals like that are @Angwe whom my character enjoys taunting. But yes, back to the point, giving players the right to choose what they take as an insult and not an insult and thus giving them cause to beat on someone has just been an avenue used by the trolls of this game to harass and kill for experience.

I'd give some examples of some of the most worst excuses for cause I have by far heard of in my IRE experience but I think it best I dont point people out.

Rivas

Calipso

Valenae said:

I think if someone rps that they can physically take you down when they have no physical prowess - its silly and ineffective. However, I do not agree that all strength and badassness resides in how effective of a combatant you are. I think its very possible to rp having strength of character, integrity, and boldness without ever engaging in what can be seen as excessive physical confrontation. I think disregarding the potential of a non-com in social situations icly is ignorant and ineffective. If someone wants to challenge you intellectually and your response is to simply kill them in order to win the argument you haven't won - you just look like a socially inept asshat. 

Exactly. If some political leader who is doing a wonderful job is suddenly harassed for it by some "big-bad PKer", then exactly what has that PKer accomplished but show he is an inept asshat? Skills and combat are just 1 small part of Aetolia and shouldnt be the defining point between "if that person is worth our time or not".

I think Aet has been focusing too much on the combat potential and usage these days and it is generally why it is so quiet.(How many guards did he kill? Ylem lesser spotted. Hunting grounds, someone entered! Fracture, someone entered! Daskalos is lightformed in the city -again- *roll*. etc.)

Nola

The point Seir is making, and that everyone has been trying to make, is..

This is their RP, that is your RP. You can't have the immunity of insulting someone, by not feeling the consequences for it. That is really one-sided. 

I think its generally accepted, if you insult certain individuals, there is the likelihood or the chance that they might kill you for it to 'put you in your place'. If you can't back up your insults, then you shouldn't be -making- insults. If the individuals who are insulting person X can fight, then there is that, but if they can't, they're just making an easy target of themselves. That is their choice. They made that decision, no one else made it for them.

Then there is always that you can't expect people on the other 'side' of Light and Dark, who hate you by the nature of what you are,  with you already being an enemy to their character by opposing what they stand for.. to not do anything about being insulted. 

Phoenecia

Long story short: don't RP something you're not good at or something you can't back up. Don't go making your character out to be a badass and talk smack to the top fighters when you're getting stomped every time in a one-on-one fight with them. On the flip side, it's roughly the same as trying to portray your character as a political mastermind when they've got the charisma of a rock or constantly doing things that should be political suicide.

I'm not going to say that mechanics trump RP or vice versa, but both reinforce each other. Can't fight well? Your character's never going to be a certified badass until you can, so don't RP that way. It's way better to play to your strengths - what you KNOW you can do well and pull off reasonably - than to try to play what you THINK is cool. If you don't have the proven skill and history to back things up, you end up making yourself look kind of foolish, and no one's really going to take you seriously.

Xavin

The thing you're ignoring, though, Calipso is that if you run your mouth and taunt people, you're basically -asking- for them to come after you.

You're giving off this vibe like you feel victimized, but you're just giving people more reasons to come pk you.

Basically, you have no place behaving like a badass if you can't back it up or have no history of backing it up. And then to call foul when someone comes after you for your behavior...well, it's just stupid.

Seir

I'd like to state that I don't toe the line between what is an insult and what isn't. It's very clear and obvious when Seir goes after the person for it.

For example: a 23-year old vampire in House Lunare calls Seir a mangy cur (strike one to an Atabahi, because they hate being called dogs) but not really enough reason to go after them. Then, tells Seir that he is an idiot and beneath them. (Strike two and three). Said vampire is all the while SAYING this while Seir is standing a bit outside of Spinesreach and Seir tells the others with him to leave her be because she's not worth the trouble and not really prey (mostly a way of saying: non-combatant, just ignore it.) Even doing this, she persisted so Seir finally got tired of it and killed her. Honestly, I would've preferred to just throatrip her so she would've been forced to be quiet and just leave it like that though I don't think this vampire would've had enough health to survive it.

Edit: As a note, the administration have made it very clear in the past as to what is and what isn't an insult. Just farseeing someone is not an insult. If you start hammering them with negative labels and ridiculing them, that is an insult and you can expect that they can and will go after you for it.

Angwe

Ahhh... yeah, that was trestarded.

Seir

You don't know pain or annoyance in PvP until you've experienced the old war system. Olawd.

Edit: Granted, I still miss it. However, it's pretty clear that I am a masochist and I have it on good authority that I am a giant dumdum.

Illikaal

Silly Seir. She was trying to RP her dominance over you. How dare you PK her for that, you socially inept asshat. 

Edit: What IS stupid is the fact that people seem to think that they can RP their way out of any situation. Mechanics > RP since the beginning of time. Talk shit to a God, and see if they care about your RP when they turn you into a pile of ash. 

Daskalos

Calipso said:

Valenae said:

I think if someone rps that they can physically take you down when they have no physical prowess - its silly and ineffective. However, I do not agree that all strength and badassness resides in how effective of a combatant you are. I think its very possible to rp having strength of character, integrity, and boldness without ever engaging in what can be seen as excessive physical confrontation. I think disregarding the potential of a non-com in social situations icly is ignorant and ineffective. If someone wants to challenge you intellectually and your response is to simply kill them in order to win the argument you haven't won - you just look like a socially inept asshat. 

Exactly. If some political leader who is doing a wonderful job is suddenly harassed for it by some "big-bad PKer", then exactly what has that PKer accomplished but show he is an inept asshat? Skills and combat are just 1 small part of Aetolia and shouldnt be the defining point between "if that person is worth our time or not".

I think Aet has been focusing too much on the combat potential and usage these days and it is generally why it is so quiet.(How many guards did he kill? Ylem lesser spotted. Hunting grounds, someone entered! Fracture, someone entered! Daskalos is lightformed in the city -again- *roll*. etc.)

Honestly, though, you're one of the worst at this, Calipso. You run your mouth a -lot- in game, and constantly do inflammatory things (like defiling shrines) then when anyone posts you dying on the forums, or whatever, you get upset about it. It's not the PKer showing that he's an inept asshat, it's the PKer going 'hey, shut your mouth or I'm going to shut you up for at least the blissful moments of silence while you're praying'. Combat is one of the main lures of the game, and is generally one of the reasons people play. A great majority of the effort by the administration goes into PK - class revamps, liaisons, new classes, et cetera. Not trying to single you out here, but political leaders get harrassed. It happens. I've been one, and from personal experience, the *worst* problems I had as a CL wasn't from the PK'ers, but from those who only RP and would get upset that 'so and so hurt my feelings after I called him a mindless thug'.

This is one of my big pet peeves, and it's basically a know your role and shut your mouth moment. Valenae is right in that you don't have to be a fighter to be a 'strong personality'. Dask has killed people for insulting his friends who couldn't fight, on behalf of them, but if you don't have those people to help you -and- you're running your mouth? Then yea, you're pretty much making a mockery of it all.

And for the record, PK is part of the game and isn't different from RP. Some people RP strong words, some people RP strong fists. It's still RP. Just because someone doesn't use long form emotes all the time doesn't mean that they're not playing a role. Everyone is playing a role, from the strong warrior to the whispering politician to the loudmouth idiot. It's all a role, but it's also a multiplayer game, and when you decide to interact with other players, sometimes those actions have consequences. There's an old saying - mechanics trump RP. I would counter and say that mechanics are a part of RP.

 

Calipso

Nola said:

The point Seir is making, and that everyone has been trying to make, is..

This is their RP, that is your RP. You can't have the immunity of insulting someone, by not feeling the consequences for it. That is really one-sided. 

Another avenue that is used "It is my RP to beat on people", "my RP is being aggressive and killing people that look at me!". A quote taken from PK about roleplay:

While a roleplayed motive can be a reason to attack another player, it
is not carte blanche to kill whomever you want with impunity. EVERYONE
is presumed to be playing a role in Aetolia, and those who violently
inflict their roleplaying on others are subjected to a much higher
standard.

Roleplaying an aggressive or generally savage brute is fine, however exposing others to that roleplay by simply "beating on them" is not what the role describes. I've heard many complaints of people that have been threatened and attacked for no reason, and it isnt that they were killed tha tis the issue, it is that no RP was put into it.

Valenae

I think that my definition of 'badass' might be a little different and that's what is the catalyst for my dissension on the theory of what should be socially acceptable in this conversation. This isn't aimed at Seir's behavior icly but the part of his reply that said: carrying your character as part of the "super strong badass" trope when there's no foundation for it in your roleplay. 

As an example: I believe that if someone disagrees with something and speaks up in a manner that's meant to be productive like writing a post that intellectually outlines their stance or approaches their GM in person to say 'I don't agree with this and here's why' or 'I think a better alternative would be -insert alternative here- and I'm willing to help you achieve it if you want my assistance' even if they know they guy/girl is an egotard then I consider that to be badass. I don't consider it to be badass if, because the GM can fight, he screams INSULT and breaks all of your limbs. I would consider that to be socially inept and unproductive. 

Obviously vantage points can differ but I think badassery doesn't just reside in your popularity or raw skill but the things you stand-up for, purpose you do so, and how you do it. If you use means of bullying like ripping out a fellow citymate's throat because they're saying something you don't like, you come across as socially inept and unable to properly handle conflict and I don't want to interact with you if you do things like that. I don't consider that to be badass; I consider it to be childish. 

Daskalos

What that means is that you can't kill someone and say 'I'm playing a mass murderer'. However, again, if you're going to run your mouth and generally antagonize the PK'er, don't expect the administration to shield you.

You seem to get upset really easily when you die, but you constantly invite the drama surrounding your character. You don't want it, stop talking smack, stop shouting insults, stop being a smartass in general. Who knows, you might get some peace of mind. Take you defiling Dhar's shrines. You defiled shrines and said 'Tina ordered it'. Tina didn't, and told you to stop. Then you -bragged- about breaking the seals on more shrines and got killed again.

You, in particularly, practically beg to be PK'd. I know, right now at this point, you've become such an annoying gnat that Dask is going to take every chance he can to swat at you.

Calipso

Seir said:

Edit: As a note, the administration have made it very clear in the past as to what is and what isn't an insult. Just farseeing someone is not an insult. If you start hammering them with negative labels and ridiculing them, that is an insult and you can expect that they can and will go after you for it.

I'd wish that statement can be directed at the trolls of the game. Just yesterday I hear of a friend that was angry for being threatened from some player because apparently she "used farsee too much on him". impeccable RP there, must be a bashful isolationist role.


on another note, i'd like it made clear that the situation Seir is mentioning does not involve me as shocking as it may seem. It seems that that is the general consensus from the remarks being made :P

Daskalos

 writing a post that intellectually outlines their

Just a comment on this, but usually those 'intellectual posts' are just high brow insults when they come from the look down their nose at you RP squad - and that's just going to tick off the other person more and make you more likely to get PK'd. One of the underlying issues is that one side thinks they're right all the time, even if they're not, and so they keep going 'he's a loudmouth, I called him a loudmouth, he can't kill me for the truth!' - when yes, in fact, they can, because they might not believe themselves to be a loudmouth and view it as an insult.

Again, if you don't want to be PK'd, don't poke the bear.

Xavin

I'm sure that people do, occasionally, get attacked for no reason. However keep in mind that if you shout inflammatory remarks or taunts, actively attack an organization's loyal mobs, defile shrines or fling insults at someone, you are most likely going to be attacked.

There is a very real difference between attacking for no reason and reacting to another character's actions.

An example would be the bounties you are getting put on yourself. You're going out of your way to attack an organization's loyal mobs. No matter what you think, you've given an organization multiple reasons to go after you, especially if there's more than a minute or two between killing the mobs. You might think you're being picked on, but it's all reactionary.

Edit: And while they might think there was no RP put into it, have you considered that maybe that's part of the roleplay of the character doing the attacking? They don't need to give long drawn out diatribes before attacking. That's not how pk in this or any other IRE game, to my knowledge, works.

Phoenecia

There are some people who will kill you simply 'because they can', and yeah, these guys are absolute jerks and are probably not putting any - if at all - RP behind their actions. That's not cool.

Then you have the people who will pick a fight with you for the tiniest reasons even if you've done nothing to deserve it or only did something relatively minor that really doesn't warrant getting killed, but whatever. Shit happens. It's not fun, and their reasons might be really sketchy, but they at least have some kind of acceptable reason backing up their actions.

And then you have the guys who are the established fighters. These are the guys that are almost always seen whenever there's a fight to be had. Raiding, dueling, collecting bounties, fighting at lessers, etc. Fighting is a very clearly established and relatively well-defined role for them. They're the enforcers. Mess with these guys and they'll kick your ass because it's what they do. Sure, you can taunt them, belittle them, or try to attack them, but if you call them out, you'd better be prepared to deal with them when they answer. Why? Because that's how it works. They're not really forcing anything on you if you're pretty much inviting them to come after you.

Aarbrok

Calipso im not going to lie, you do attempt to single handedly raid Duiran, you mouth off and make remarks during the Event in Delve while I am trying to make Spinesreach not look like a roving band of asshats after things that are taking place, whilst you are interrupting me as the Cities representative leader and telling me how to be diplomatic on the city channel while giggling and pointing fingers at people in attendance.

I dunno, I have a hard time supporting your defense based on your characters actions towards others, you irritate the hell out of me if I wouldn't get thrown out of the City every time I murder a citizen and have to work my way back up after a long trial over and over...

Aint nobody got time for that.

Angwe

You're just the public 'face' of this behavior, C. Welcome to rockstar status.

Calipso

Xavin said:

I'm sure that people do, occasionally, get attacked for no reason. However keep in mind that if you shout inflammatory remarks or taunts, actively attack an organization's loyal mobs, defile shrines or fling insults at someone, you are most likely going to be attacked.

There is a very real difference between attacking for no reason and reacting to another character's actions.

An example would be the bounties you are getting put on yourself. You're going out of your way to attack an organization's loyal mobs. No matter what you think, you've given an organization multiple reasons to go after you, especially if there's more than a minute or two between killing the mobs. You might think you're being picked on, but it's all reactionary.

Edit: And while they might think there was no RP put into it, have you considered that maybe that's part of the roleplay of the character doing the attacking? They don't need to give long drawn out diatribes before attacking. That's not how pk in this or any other IRE game, to my knowledge, works.

How did this become a conversation about my character's workings? We were discussing Seir's situation (which again, did not involve me) and the issues involved with PKing individuals seeking RP.

Teani

I think what @Calipso was on about was that it can be difficult to know just what will tick some people off. Someone will be alright with some back and forth bantering, even insults at times, and not put much into it, while with others it's basically enough to open your mouth once and you're screwed.

However, if you happen to meet one in the latter category (getting PK'd for something relatively small), just take it to heart and don't get involved with said person again (at least not if you expect to live). Also, remember to drop the whole thing. If you go ranting to everyone and their mother about this person killing you for little reason, it's not going to do any good anyway. It might even trigger those people to grow even more annoyed and next time it won't even matter what you say. 

Seir

Oh god, what have I started?

Calipso

Aarbrok said:

Calipso im not going to lie, you do attempt to single handedly raid Duiran, you mouth off and make remarks during the Event in Delve while I am trying to make Spinesreach not look like a roving band of asshats after things that are taking place, whilst you are interrupting me as the Cities representative leader and telling me how to be diplomatic on the city channel while giggling and pointing fingers at people in attendance.

I dunno, I have a hard time supporting your defense based on your characters actions towards others, you irritate the hell out of me if I wouldn't get thrown out of the City every time I murder a citizen and have to work my way back up after a long trial over and over...

Aint nobody got time for that.

Aarbrok you did realize i've ever only had 1 interaction with you which was the Delve event and I the entire fiasco which you still seem to be hurt over was when the diplomat came to spinesreach attempting to give a message and all you and another (cant recall) kept mentioning to them was enjoying some wine or having a party or some such. Of course I would point out to you to let the man talk and give the message he was sent for, not take him parading around .

Illikaal

Edit: Well since we're in our own thread now!

You don't have to have direct contact with someone to hear about their foolish shenanigans, you know. Just like I wasn't there to see you drop a Pit at the Core of Duiran. Yet, I somehow magically know it happened.