Enemy Status

Veritas

The reason I would want to avoid making a Leaders board post saying "K, no enemying period of anyone <=21 without good reason" is that it opens up a can of worms in the sense that you will come to us and say: "I enemied Randomnoob12345 because he's a dirty, no good, smelly Luminary and I don't want him in my city."

I'm going to look at that, frown, and go "That's not really a great reason, he's level 3 and still struggling to make it through Lodi."

Thus we start a debate on what is or isn't "good reason" when we can just take it out of your hands completely. 

Damonicus

Also maybe a slight warning when they are at the intro when they are choosing guild/city:

Warning: By choosing this guild you may become the enemy of Enorian due to it's stance on the undead. For more information HELP LAWS ENORIAN.

Veritas

That's actually not a bad idea either

Ezalor

What about making it go the other way around? Create a new explicit "ally" status and guards instantly attack anyone who isn't an ally. That way newbies aren't greeted with an enemy status while still allowing BL/Enorian to have their hostile stance.

It's friendlier for a newbie of Duiran to have to seek ally status to Enorian than be greeted with an enemy status from Bloodloch.

Would be quite a bit of work to apply that change retroactively though.

Arbre

"Good reason" constitutes actively acting against the city.  Simply being a dirty, no good, smelly Luminary would be passive.  I see your point about the good reason debate, but I'm not entirely sure I agree with you.  At a certain point, players need to step up and take some responsibility or risk bannination.  Will giving us this power allow them us to show that we can be mature about it or will it prove that we're all twits?  I'm not sure.

Veritas

@Ezalor Uh, this was the old way of things

Damonicus

Problem with that is instead of just one enemy status in the beginning, the novice would have to get 2 maybe 3 ally status.

Arbre

We're posting too swiftly, need to quote or say who your post is aimed at plz Veritas (and anyone else, I guess).

Veritas

Arbre said:

We're posting too swiftly, need to quote or say who your post is aimed at plz Veritas (and anyone else, I guess).

Silence wench(I did)

Ezalor

Ah right, thinking about what I said further it's basically the same as instant enemy status from before.  

Veritas

Arbre said:

"Good reason" constitutes actively acting against the city.  Simply being a dirty, no good, smelly Luminary would be passive.  I see your point about the good reason debate, but I'm not entirely sure I agree with you.  At a certain point, players need to step up and take some responsibility or risk bannination.  Will giving us this power allow them us to show that we can be mature about it or will it prove that we're all twits?  I'm not sure.

Well, to be honest I can't leave responsibility and sportsmanship in your(players in general) hands. For every 1 of you who acts like this is a game 100 some odd people enjoy at any given time, there are about 10 of you who think Aetolia is a single-player game they got for free off PSN and treat it like the between match chat of a CoD or LoL match. 

Any attempt to make the latter act like the former is met with a solid-steel reinforced brick wall and while I could personally just channel my inner Anya and banniate the crap out of everyone in that category, that's not really doing anything for the game either. 

Arbre

Veritas said:

Any attempt to make the latter act like the former is met with a solid-steel reinforced brick wall and while I could personally just channel my inner Anya and banniate the crap out of everyone in that category, that's not really doing anything for the game either. 

...not sure I agree with you there either.  >.>

Illikaal

Or, maybe the administration could just take a really firm stance on people making alts just to use them as raiding tools. That's where the problem stemmed from to begin with. 

Veritas

I'm pretty sure if I saw someone roll a noob and run into Bloodloch or Enorian and go 'wt k bros I'm here port in' I would sacrifice them to the Blood God.

Ezalor

Eh, I think the main problem doesn't stem from raiding noobs anymore. I mean it's impossible for us to get everyone, if someone really wanted to metagame a raid alt they'll eventually succeed. Not to mention they can just make this metagamed alt a citizen of whatever city they wanted to raid. That might have been the reason it started in the past but I doubt it's the reason it's still continued. Spinesreach and Duiran don't enemy on sight and they don't go through newbie raids.

I think it's become moreso a hardline WE HATE LIVING/UNDEAD RP thing honestly. Bloodloch doesn't -want- to see unallied living ever prowl their streets, likewise with Enorian for any Undead. That's the root of the reason now, in my opinion.

Illikaal

Well, the problem isn't just the alttroll. Cities should hold themselves to a higher standard of stooping to such low tactics just to get a guard wipe or two in. I'm honestly surprised that some cities got away with it as many times as they did. 

Imo, it shouldn't be just the alt creator that gets punished. Anyone who participates in the raid under those pretenses (especially if they know what's going on) should be sacrificed to the Blood God as well. 

Angwe

What if we had the NPC guards handle it? For example, if newbie12 walks into Bloodloch as a living person, the guards stop them with some non-move aff, explain to them that living scum aren't allowed and advise them to leave, quickly. About 20 seconds later, they get an automatic enemy status.

Moirean

Ezalor said:

Eh, I think the main problem doesn't stem from raiding noobs anymore. I mean it's impossible for us to get everyone, if someone really wanted to metagame a raid alt they'll eventually succeed. That might have been the reason it started in the past but I doubt it's the reason it's still continued. Spinesreach and Duiran don't enemy on sight and they don't go through newbie raids.

I think it's become moreso a hardline WE HATE LIVING/UNDEAD RP thing honestly. Bloodloch doesn't -want- to see unallied living ever prowl their streets, likewise with Enorian for any Undead. That's the root of the reason now, in my opinion.

You don't have to just use enemy status to display that hatred, though. That cuts off any sort of interaction or potential conflict, and just keeps people isolated. Enemy status these days is instant and guards will clobber people immediately, so if someone is being a complete jerk, you can get them to stop in seconds, via mechanics. HOWEVER by making enemy status something that is actively earned, you allow people to potentially solve issues through other, more FUN AND INTERESTING means, such as RP or a duel. 

IMHO, Duiran was the most fun when I deleted 9/10ths of the guards and cleared pretty much all the enemy statuses. People weren't constantly harassing members - instead, we had citizens realize that they couldn't go shout asinine stuff from behind guards or run back to the city after causing trouble, and fun, engaging interactions happened with people I wouldn't have otherwise encountered.

This is drifting more into a comment on the new polarity, but I think people have gone a bit overzealous with removing the grey from Aetolia via pushing enemy statuses and hostility/dislike for the other side. I like that we don't have Luminaries sleeping with vampires anymore, but it feels like people are skittish of interactions, period, and that is boring. 

To get back to the original point, I'd rather we solve problems actively as they arise, giving us more to do, versus just putting blanket enemy statuses on everyone - we have amazing RP and combat tools at our disposal, so why don't we use THOSE to communicate feelings towards enemy factions, instead of a process that takes no effort and becomes just a mindless task? RP and conflict are engaging and actively remind us of our character's outlook,  so I'd even argue that a blanket enemy status DIMINISHES both the impact of being an enemy and the hostile environment between the factions.

Illikaal

Moirean said:

 I like that we don't have Luminaries sleeping with vampires anymore, but it feels like people are skittish of interactions, period, and that is boring. 

LIES.

Moirean

*I* am not a vampire, so my illicit affairs are entirely sidestepped by my comment! *wink wink Daskarivaren*

Serrice

On the other hand, we still have Sentinels sleeping with vampires.

Illikaal

Moirean said:

*I* am not a vampire, so my illicit affairs are entirely sidestepped by my comment! *wink wink Daskarivaren*

To put it in plain english, there's a lot of inter-city and 'forbidden' sexual relations that go on in Aetolia. Hell, there were quite a number of Enorian and Duiran citizens who actively resided in Vampire houses until the changes. 

But lolassociation laws. Nobody cares, honestly. Even that fatty Serrice was dating/banging a Spirean for many moons, but nobody cared. 

Veritas

I think we started to get off on a tangent here. In any case, we'll see about adding a disclaimer in the creation process as well as updating the enemy status message to properly give the reason as to why. Anything more is just in a consideration phase as I was mostly curious.

Areka

Could it be added that you get a message (as in message system, not just instant line when it happens) when you're enemied to someplace? Sometimes it gets missed in spam (the guild tutor messages frequently get lost in the shuffle when coming off of the tutorial as well), or a way to check your statuses and the information on them after the fact?

Azrael

Holy cow, I've been out of commission most of the week and this thread has took off like a rocket.

I would absolutely LOVE it if the enemy notification included all the information located in enemystatus. That would be totally awesome.

Personally, I dislike the idea of not declaring newbies enemies simply for the fact that it will cause a lot of work on the back end for orgs that like to keep their records clean, and trust me, both Enorian and Bloodloch will assign an individual to track it....I'm sure that there are others out there who would agree, but for some unknown reason most people in Bloodloch tend to look at the forums as some horrid place that nobody should ever go to.

What if the notification message is updated and make it so that guards don't kill newbies who are enemied but when they try to enter the org - said newbie is instead transported out of the city much like they're kicked out of the newbie areas after reaching said level. I mean our guards aren't meant to be stupid, they should be able to determine if someone is a Luminary or not at a glance and upon seeing said individual toss them out to the city entrance with a stern waggle of a finger. The transportation might scare said newbie but at least they wouldn't die immediately.

I just don't want to see some random newbie standing at the city tutor talking crap and nobody be able to do anything about it....much like the newbies who do it while standing at the newbie portals where nobody but gods can reach them. I mean we see it happen on the newbie channel and this would just open it up so that we actually have to put up with it on our home turf which just disturbs me.

Moirean

I don't understand why people are so worried about random newbies trolling. Just make being in an enemy city strip grace. Enemy whoever's trolling. Tada, troll newbies are dead newbies. You don't have to everyone pre-emptively, when there are much more simple solutions available like this.

Rivas

When I first started playing Aet, I was a true newbie. NO experience in MUDs at all. Back in the day, the newbie intro (the Loom Island intro) would take you to various places around the actual world to do quests, help teach you where things were, etc. I was in Ashtan (which was at war with Enorian at the time, so everyone was on edge), waiting for the newbie mob to come grab me, and I bumped into a player idling there. He asked what I was doing there, I got smartassey (big surprise, I know) and I got instantly enemied to Ashtan by the player. I felt so terrible I suicided and waited a full day before I recreated Rivas and didn't talk to ANYONE for about a week.

 

Yes, that wasn't exactly what we're talking about (it wasn't automatic it was a player being a douche), but as a true newbie who got enemied before I got out of the intro? Yeah, it made me feel terrible and I almost didn't come back. It's not cool to feel like you've screwed up before you've had a chance to make any real mistakes, y'know?

 

Teani said:

Oh, just thought of something that would be cool. Maybe it's just me, but I'll share anyway. <.<

What if instead of attacking to kill, the guards attack to knock you out?
This would only apply on enemies entering the city without attacking a guard, or perhaps apply on newbies only. First guard calls out warning, few seconds wait, then does a knockout attack. Then, while they're unconscious, the guards drag them off to a prison cell somewhere. Call is made by guard to the city, saying "So and so has been taken to the cell for interrogation."

Newbie wakes up again with the message:

"You feel groggy from a hit to the head and realize you're inside a prison cell. When asking, you are informed that your presence in the city is unwanted. For further information you can ask the city officials."

From here one could try to escape (and then the guards will really try to kill) or leave (same options as after the death sequence).

Might be possible to spin something from it or simply toss away as garbage. Just a thought!

 

 

You could code mechanical stuff in (like the "under level 21" thing), or you could do something like this. I absolutely LOVE this idea, personally.

Haven

Newbie trolls aren't even a serious problem.

The ideas for adding a disclaimer in the intro for opposing organizations potential branding and including the reason when you're branded are excellent ones. They'll help with building transparency and understanding of the environment an organization is trying to foster with enemy statuses. I believe that's where the issue truly lies, not the branding itself but the meaning/reasoning behind it.

I don't believe enemying anyone, regardless of the fact if they're a novice or not, for being on the 'other' side is wrong. It is perfectly legitimate role-play and I do not believe it actually hurts the game in of itself. What's wrong is if the understanding or the 'why' behind it is not made clear to the player.

In addition to all this though, I'd like to see the intro receive a serious overhaul. While I think it does an okay job with teaching you how to play, it doesn't do a very good job in teaching you what you're playing. I feel like if the introduction displayed the dominant themes, conflicts, and key lore of the game more (undeath vs life, good vs evil, Bloodloch vs Enorian, Vampires vs Lycans, etc) it'd go a long way in establishing a more prepared novice mentally.

Mephistoles

Veritas, if you want to make it so you cannot enemy characters under 21 I think I'd do it like this.  That you are prohibited from enemying characters that are under 21 AND under 19 years or age or 20 years of age.  There are some old newbies around now and again and you should probably be able to enemy them.  

The flag that makes someone unable to be enemied could have as an additional requirement that they have not performed an aggressive action against any player character.  However that might require some review of what actions are considered aggressive.  'earth pass' works pretty much like a prism tattoo but it's considered aggressive for instance but it targets a player and is considered aggressive.  Some newbies do occasionally engage in legal PK after all, and cities should have a method of marking them as enemies, so I think a list of requirements like I set out would work pretty well.  The enemying of newbies reminds me of the old practice of probating novices and it's probably not productive.

Edhain

It'd be really cool and "different" for Aetolia if the intro changed and branched into some slightly different story depending what class, etc, you picked.