Enemy Status

Tza

Ezalor said:

And @Tza no, NWHO does not show your guild. I know this because I spam the hell out of that thing to find people to enemy. It merely shows a "No" if you haven't chosen a guild or nothing at all if you have chosen one.

Guess you aren't the only one then who makes 'good' use of the website.

Ezalor

Sucks indeed, but try going through 10 newbies/whatevers a day to enemy and trying to RP with them :P. It doesn't bring me any fun either. For the last time, I'm sorry for using the method I did. I assumed, rightly or wrongly, that it was kosher. If it makes you feel any better, the same result would have undoubtedly happened as soon as you reached Yeleni or the next random Bloodlochian noticed you hanging out in Duiran/Enorian. You're unlikely to get much explanation for that one either.

If you really want to get insulting with monkeys and whatnot, go find any of the dozens of threads arguing this same thing on the old forums. I don't really feel like getting into that. Not saying I agree with the reasons it's done, but there are reasons. Changing how it is ICly is more or less impossible too - all the reasons against it are OOC. Bloodloch can't one day go "you know what, let's give the living a chance." Just like Enorian won't sit with letting Undead prowl their streets until they cause trouble.

Moirean said:

Ezalor said:

And @Tza no, NWHO does not show your guild. I know this because I spam the hell out of that thing to find people to enemy.

I feel like there are probably much better uses for NWHO....

Sure, but it's a useful tool. At least this one is unquestionably IC .

EDIT: One more point, just to get it clear, I don't by any means enjoy doing this enemying stuff. It's not some personal vendetta I have or some sadistic pleasure. It's a matter engrained completely into the city, for better or worse. It's a job I have to do. Bash me for some of the questionable tools I used in fulfilling it but don't portray me as some newbie-eating hate mongerer . I'd rather not be doing this either.

Teani

@Ezalor:

First, it wasn't meant as an insult to refer to the monkeys. I was merely suggesting you try to break a pattern and RP instead of keeping up with the whole spamming for people to enemy because it's how it's been done forever. I bet it would make the game more fun if that habit was broken. Sorry if you felt I was jumping down your throat.

Second, Teani is trying hard not to hang out in either Duiran or Enorian, for the same reasons she's tried hard to stay unenemied. She's even told people she lives on Mount Redwing.

Third, she's hardly one of those ten-a-day newbies.

Anyways, I'll drop this now.

Ezalor

Right well, all I can offer now are my sincere apologies for handling it the way I did and as many explanations as I can. I don't disagree that it could have been handled better and I definitely don't disagree that my method really blurs the IC/OOC boundary. 

Sure I'd love it if I never had to go look for people to enemy again, but there are reasons for the rule. It's entirely beyond my power to change that and, even if I agreed against it, I have -no- idea how to bring that up in an IC scope that would fit my character. If this insta-enemying stuff is something that we feel like should be discussed in detail more (and if there are new points that haven't been brought up in the many past threads about this ) then I'm sure a new thread could be created for that too.

Really @Illidan, try justifying to Enorian that they shouldn't enemy any Undead they see. Lemme know how far you get with that :P. It's not as simple as monkey see monkey do.

Tza

@Ezalor: Well, why do you have to do everything then? Just enemy the people whom you're very sure do not fall under a treaty (based on IC information like the title or where they hang out etc), flag the rest or put them on some list. Then encourage this probably-existing crowd of lowly ranked citizens to gather IC information about those individuals. Now I don't know how this would really work out, but at least it sounds like it would give another interesting opportunity for new folk to get involved in the city. And it's a way to get involved where you don't need some trans skills (refining) or a high level to be of any use. You just need some hiding skills and/or a quick and witty tongue.

It seems to me cities have this "we must enemy everyone of that faction immediately or the end of the world is going to happen". I don't get it. Just why is it so important to always be 100% accurate in enemying everyone? Wouldn't it be more interesting if it wasn't 100%? If someone raids the city they end up enemied, so getting in without being harrased by the guards is a one time joker anyhow. And by not being immediately enemied it could lead to some interesting interactions with the other side, maybe being converted. Stuff you simply don't have atm, because if you're enemied to an organization as a newb you're going simply stay away and not interact with anyone there. And it probably won't make you inclined to do so either.

(PS: Not trying to criticise anyone in particular or aiming at any particular organisation. Just my 2 cents at the situation as a whole. )

Alistaire

Amusing note: Enorian is in the middle of changing our mass enemy practice.

We're making it stricter, most likely.

Kiyotan

For the record, NWHO only shows the guild if you're Hansel or Gretel. Not a big company secret, but if you're taking this information to your character, then I promise to water you when you're a shrub. 

Ezalor

Tza said:

@Ezalor: Well, why do you have to do everything then? Just enemy the people whom you're very sure do not fall under a treaty (based on IC information like the title or where they hang out etc), flag the rest or put them on some list. Then encourage this probably-existing crowd of lowly ranked citizens to gather IC information about those individuals. Now I don't know how this would really work out, but at least it sounds like it would give another interesting opportunity for new folk to get involved in the city. And it's a way to get involved where you don't need some trans skills (refining) or a high level to be of any use. You just need some hiding skills and/or a quick and witty tongue.

It seems to me cities have this "we must enemy everyone of that faction immediately or the end of the world is going to happen". I don't get it. Just why is it so important to always be 100% accurate in enemying everyone? Wouldn't it be more interesting if it wasn't 100%? If someone raids the city they end up enemied, so getting in without being harrased by the guards is a one time joker anyhow. And by not being immediately enemied it could lead to some interesting interactions with the other side, maybe being converted. Stuff you simply don't have atm, because if you're enemied to an organization as a newb you're going simply stay away and not interact with anyone there. And it probably won't make you inclined to do so either.

(PS: Not trying to criticise anyone in particular or aiming at any particular organisation. Just my 2 cents at the situation as a whole. )

Well, I found a tool that lets me be sure very easily and used it. Said tool's validity has been called into question and said tool seems likely to be removed. In the future it'll probably be something along the lines of what you're suggesting.

Konnorn

I very rarely agree with Loch, but in this case, I agree with @Ezalor in one thing. No, using the website to gain information was NOT right. Not even a little. No way. However, Bloodloch DOES enemy if you are not a part of a treatied organisation. Even if you are city/guildless.

 

When one of my chars left both Spinesreach and her guild and was thinking about what the next step would be, she was enemied to Loch. Now, my char was strongly considering to stay in Spines as either Cabal or Sciomancer, but was told that once she joined a guild she could contact them and they would ally her again. Until then, stay out of Loch or get killed by the guards.

 

That's how it's done in Loch and I can't say I disagree with it. If you are not a member of a treatied org you are not welcome. Should you at a later point join a treatied org, then you will be reallied.

 

However, never, ever, ever use the information from the website as a reason to enemy people.

Illikaal

Ezalor said:

Right well, all I can offer now are my sincere apologies for handling it the way I did and as many explanations as I can. I don't disagree that it could have been handled better and I definitely don't disagree that my method really blurs the IC/OOC boundary. 

Sure I'd love it if I never had to go look for people to enemy again, but there are reasons for the rule. It's entirely beyond my power to change that and, even if I agreed against it, I have -no- idea how to bring that up in an IC scope that would fit my character. If this insta-enemying stuff is something that we feel like should be discussed in detail more (and if there are new points that haven't been brought up in the many past threads about this ) then I'm sure a new thread could be created for that too.

Really @Illidan, try justifying to Enorian that they shouldn't enemy any Undead they see. Lemme know how far you get with that :P. It's not as simple as monkey see monkey do.

I was there when Daskalos started the trend, actually. He said "If Bloodloch is going to do it, then we are too." It's stupid on both accounts, really. The Administration removed the automatic enemyship for a reason. 

Daskalos

@Illidan - I didn't start the Syssin enemying trend, Gepideth did. But I did start the Undead one. I also remember when the Admin forced the automatic enemying on us... the ruling made at the time was that as long as you're not an enemy of an org, you can own a house in an org. This was before neighborhoods, so an enemy house in the city would of been a real problem. The only solution to prevent an enterprising Lochian from buying a house in Enorian was to enemy anyone, and the admin said 'hey, we'll do that for you'. It was during the polarization times and when given that choice - enemy all undead or let them build houses in your city - then what do you do? You take the enemying.  Not saying I disagree with it, to Daskalos it's all about security and safety within his own city. If you want to play someone that is in an organization opposed to the Light, or take on Undeath, why would you *ever* expect to be allowed to walk around the City of Light unmolested? It's not like you can't be allied quickly enough if you change sides.

But the main reason we started enemying every Undead that came off the isle after the automatic enemying was removed? Alts being used to raid. After the 5th consecutive night of a newbie serving as a portal point for a Lochian raid, I had enough. So really you can blame me about 'being a monkey' if you want, but you should probably direct your anger at whoever the unscrupulous players were that were creating alts to raid from, then suiciding them after the raid.

Seir

While I don't like it, I feel that blanket enemying has far less of an impact here. You're not dealing with random siege weaponry flying at you just for being in adjacent areas next to the organization like in Imperian. You just... aren't allowed in the organization.

To some extent, I can understand why Bloodloch does it from a security perspective. Both sides are guilty of using individuals that are not enemied in order to find a lapse in the guard structure of an organization to break in and kill guards, citizenry, and what have you.

However, I don't like it because to a lot of novices and genuine newbies, it makes them feel like they've done something wrong or messed up. In turn, this causes them to leave or get frustrated. I've seen it happen and I don't particularly like it personally as I feel it scares off potential new players.

Tza

@Daskalos: I understand why it was put in place, but things have changed now. Why not rethink that policy? I'm not talking about coddling undead in any way, but there is more than one way to win a 'war'. You can either kill all the opposing forces (apparently this is what every org does atm) or you try to convert them. The first basically starts with the 'ENEMY <x> TO <org> FOR BEING <undead|alive>' and ends with watching NPCs slaughter them. The second could open up chances for interaction and RP. People who go the "kill everything with fire" way will always exist and they should too (!) but there should also be room for another approach imho.

If I just want to mash buttons and bash heads in with a minimum of player interactions, I might as well log onto Guild Wars 2 or any other graphical MMO. In my opinion, it's the possibility of interactions and RP that go far deeper than a graphical game can offer that sets Aetolia apart. But it's up to the playerbase to capitalize on these possibilities and freedoms to make Aetolia into whatever they (we) want.

As a Character I totally understand the need for security and safety. In real life it would probably be handled in a similar vein. But if I look at Aetolia as a game then I am far, far more intrigued by the option of more interactions/RP. And it's not like it couldn't be argued for IC either (convert them etc).

EDIT: Creating newbs to use as a portal target works with blanket enemying as well, so it's not really a defense against it at all. Just make the newb city- and guildless or better even a member of the concerining org. Of course, that'd be metagaming at its cheapest and I really hope those people get issued.

EDIT2: And I think a separate thread is warranted at this point.. pretty please with cherry on top.

Moirean

Seir said:

However, I don't like it because to a lot of novices and genuine newbies, it makes them feel like they've done something wrong or messed up. In turn, this causes them to leave or get frustrated. I've seen it happen and I don't particularly like it personally as I feel it scares off potential new players.

Exactly. I've convinced friends to try the game, and they stopped playing right out of the intro because of being enemied. They felt like that was an indication of hostility they'd be dealing with if they continued.

Haven

The information on the website shouldn't be used for IC purposes at all. The message feature is a convenience for players to still play/communicate with other players in the game. So use it like you would the in-game messaging system but anything outside of the actual message exchanges are and should be off limits as far as character knowledge is concerned. Though to be safe from this kind of abuse, accidental or otherwise, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing the information on the website changed to mirror the in-game Honors information.

As for the discussion on the blanket enemy policies, I do not understand why they're being called stupid? The stance "You are either with us or against us." is a perfectly legitimate role-play policy to have, especially if your organization happens to be one of the game's extreme polar ends like Bloodloch and Enorian are. While city enemy statuses can dictate where certain role-play can occur, it by no means stops any role-playing from occurring. Conversion or any role-play with the enemy can and still does happen regardless of enemy status. There's a multitude of ways to go about it from personal tells to actually meeting up with the person in question in neutral territory. Ultimately:

Tza said:

...it's up to the playerbase to capitalize on these possibilities and freedoms to make Aetolia into whatever they (we) want.

Things like idling and complete lack of communication/responses are what stifles role-play. Not the enemy statuses themselves.

Damonicus

I know, when I was BL Ambassador and so did Arbre. We used to tell the novices or anyone we enemied why. She normally told through messages, while I, when I was bored sought them out for a little conversion RP.  There are many IG ways to find out who is in what org or if they are no longer. I recently was enemied to Enoran becuase if forgot turning undead had a deathisght,. therefore was caught breaking whatever law Taygeta messaged me about.

Azrael

Not going to lie, I haven't taken the time to read every single post because some of them are nothing more than Bloodloch haters who are of course going to hate regardless.

I'll just say that Az will continue to brand folks enemies based on their titles...newbie escapes isle, honors newbie, oh look, at Scout, brand newbie enemy for no treaty, I also randomly check NWHO...and if I'm feeling sociable, I might send them a tell or a message letting them know why they were enemied. More times than not I do not though because I actually enjoy the smart alec tells that Az gets from some people when they're enemied - that goes for older players and newbies alike.

As to the Aetolia website being OOC...I use the website IC'ly quite often because I can't log into the game from work, because my office keeps the ports blocked that Aetolia operates on and so I read news, I read org logs, I reply IC'ly to messages that Az receives, if people aren't meant to use the website as partially IC then they should remove said features from the website. Heck, I know plenty of people who have multiple alts and while they're logged into Character#1 in the game they're on the website replying to messages while logged into Character#2...some of which have actually posted to this thread about how META using the website is. In my opinion, that's called being a hypocrite....just sayin'

Haven

Azrael said:

As to the Aetolia website being OOC...I use the website IC'ly quite often because I can't log into the game from work, because my office keeps the ports blocked that Aetolia operates on and so I read news, I read org logs, I reply IC'ly to messages that Az receives, if people aren't meant to use the website as partially IC then they should remove said features from the website. Heck, I know plenty of people who have multiple alts and while they're logged into Character#1 in the game they're on the website replying to messages while logged into Character#2...some of which have actually posted to this thread about how META using the website is. In my opinion, that's called being a hypocrite....just sayin'

Those features aren't what's considered being OOC. It's the information that's not readily available in-game that's considered OOC. Guild, city, and order affiliation are not things available through honors in-game unless your title/public clans/militia status says otherwise.

As for the use of the website to play a second character while logged into your first, sounds like a violation of HELP SECONDS to me.

Macavity

I agree with @azrael with the logged into Aetolia with toon 1 and using web site for toon 2.  I really think this should fall under the rule HELP MULTIPLAYING and not being able to be logged into both characters at the same time.  

Azrael

Yay, my first disagree :-) how exciting.

Just tossing this bit in so that I don't get my first "off topic" today as well....Violation of help seconds or not, sadly, it happens. Perhaps they should get rid of the "who" part from the website all together? Or perhaps update it so that it is more inline with in-game honors?

Edhain

Haven't read the whole thread, but I dislike these kinds of enemying practices in general. In my opinion, they kind of kill potentially interesting inter-org conflict. After the change that meant undead weren't immediately slaughtered by guards in Enorian, a new law was enacted that meant undead and vampires were banned from entering the city. This was expanded to include members of vampire houses. 

However, at least when I was VG, nobody ever sought out these people to enemy. They were enemied when they caused trouble, but the clause was there to ensure that they could be enemied purely on principle. For instance, "Blahnkenstein is wandering around in the city" followed by "enemy him, Undead". It's not difficult to enemy somebody even in a split-second action situation and if the clause is there to allow it legally, that works from an IC perspective.

It wasn't like some security aide was charged with the task to sit there maintaining a database of every player in the game, or checking 'nwho' and honorsing everyday to enemy the new members of the opposing team, or whatever. The whole idea of that strikes me as lame and anti-RP - not to mention a turn-off to new players.

I don't like how Enorian is now trying to expand that anti-Undead policy to guilds like the Syssin. Unprotected status is enough.

Haven

Edhain said:

Haven't read the whole thread, but I dislike these kinds of enemying practices in general. In my opinion, they kind of kill potentially interesting inter-org conflict. After the change that meant undead weren't immediately slaughtered by guards in Enorian, a new law was enacted that meant undead and vampires were banned from entering the city. This was expanded to include members of vampire houses. 

However, at least when I was VG, nobody ever sought out these people to enemy. They were enemied when they caused trouble, but the clause was there to ensure that they could be enemied purely on principle. For instance, "Blahnkenstein is wandering around in the city" followed by "enemy him, Undead". It's not difficult to enemy somebody even in a split-second action situation and if the clause is there to allow it legally, that works from an IC perspective.

It wasn't like some security aide was charged with the task to sit there maintaining a database of every player in the game, or checking 'nwho' and honorsing everyday to enemy the new members of the opposing team, or whatever. The whole idea of that strikes me as lame and anti-RP - not to mention a turn-off to new players.

I don't like how Enorian is now trying to expand that anti-Undead policy to guilds like the Syssin. Unprotected status is enough.

I don't understand how these policies kill potentially interesting inter-org conflict. Would you care to explain your view, please? Are inter-org conflicts only interesting behind enemy lines.? Can they only occur behind enemy lines? I'm not sure what you're getting at exactly.

Truthfully, I think the real complaint comes down to players spending the majority of their time behind the safety of friendly walls and not making themselves readily accessible to the opposing faction for interaction in a non-hostile manner. But that's another issue entirely and shouldn't be attributed to the legitimacy of the role-play behind blanket enemy status policies.

While I think it's a little tacky to monitor nwho/honoring everyone to enemy to the city, it doesn't make the policy wrong or inappropriate. It's perfectly within any organization's right to foster that kind of environment.

Moirean

In my opinion, blanket enemying should exclude novices. Isn't one of the big goals of the admin right now to draw in new players and make the novice experience better (I swear I read that in one of the development posts)? Enemying people as soon as they finish the intro flies in the face of that goal.

Edit: and if alts are being made for raiding purposes, that's something that should be addressed on a case by case basis (including potential issuing if it's clear that the alt is being used solely for that purpose).

Edhain

@Haven : I recall a fair deal of my most interesting roleplay coming from tense situations with a person from the opposing team lurking around Enorian. Sure, they weren't enemied and they hadn't yet committed any crimes specifically... but they were still like, potential criminals. That's a fun dynamic.

As a note, I'm not saying that inter-org conflicts are only fun or can only occur behind enemy lines. I'm saying that's a facet of them that happens and can be enjoyable and is killed by this sort of policy.

Daskalos

Tza said:

@Daskalos: I understand why it was put in place, but things have changed now. Why not rethink that policy? I'm not talking about coddling undead in any way, but there is more than one way to win a 'war'. You can either kill all the opposing forces (apparently this is what every org does atm) or you try to convert them. The first basically starts with the 'ENEMY <x> TO <org> FOR BEING <undead|alive>' and ends with watching NPCs slaughter them. The second could open up chances for interaction and RP. People who go the "kill everything with fire" way will always exist and they should too (!) but there should also be room for another approach imho.

If I just want to mash buttons and bash heads in with a minimum of player interactions, I might as well log onto Guild Wars 2 or any other graphical MMO. In my opinion, it's the possibility of interactions and RP that go far deeper than a graphical game can offer that sets Aetolia apart. But it's up to the playerbase to capitalize on these possibilities and freedoms to make Aetolia into whatever they (we) want.

Ok, so a few comments -

1) To those saying 'you should change this' - the overwhelming majority of Enorian supported this policy 86-25 in a recent referendum. That's more than a 3:1 ratio.

2) I really dislike 'I don't like how this org runs things so maybe I can make the administration tell them it's illegal. IMO, the administration could make it -easier- to do AND more newbie friendly at the same time. Something like 'declare <org> enemy' and everyone in that org will always be enemied, but if people under a certain level, say 21 or 30, come within 3 rooms of the city, they'll move slowly in 'fear of being near an enemy place', along with some sort of message. This would not only prevent everyone from seeing the 'enemy' message right off novice and hurting the delicate sensibilities of the novices, but would also help prevent them from wandering in.

As for RP, there are plenty of places in the open that are public meeting points, and I daresay we need more to encourage RP across sides. It shouldn't have to be in your home. Why invite trouble in your own home? You wouldn't let a thief into your house so you could discuss why he wouldn't rob you, would you?

Haven

Bear in mind vote strength Daskalos.

Daskalos

Aye, and I know 4 of the people that voted for it have 5 vote strengths, which means, at best, it was 5 to  16 - Still more than a 3:1 ratio

Tza

Daskalos said:

Tza said:

@Daskalos: I understand why it was put in place, but things have changed now. Why not rethink that policy? I'm not talking about coddling undead in any way, but there is more than one way to win a 'war'. You can either kill all the opposing forces (apparently this is what every org does atm) or you try to convert them. The first basically starts with the 'ENEMY <x> TO <org> FOR BEING <undead|alive>' and ends with watching NPCs slaughter them. The second could open up chances for interaction and RP. People who go the "kill everything with fire" way will always exist and they should too (!) but there should also be room for another approach imho.

If I just want to mash buttons and bash heads in with a minimum of player interactions, I might as well log onto Guild Wars 2 or any other graphical MMO. In my opinion, it's the possibility of interactions and RP that go far deeper than a graphical game can offer that sets Aetolia apart. But it's up to the playerbase to capitalize on these possibilities and freedoms to make Aetolia into whatever they (we) want.

Ok, so a few comments -

1) To those saying 'you should change this' - the overwhelming majority of Enorian supported this policy 86-25 in a recent referendum. That's more than a 3:1 ratio.

2) I really dislike 'I don't like how this org runs things so maybe I can make the administration tell them it's illegal. IMO, the administration could make it -easier- to do AND more newbie friendly at the same time. Something like 'declare <org> enemy' and everyone in that org will always be enemied, but if people under a certain level, say 21 or 30, come within 3 rooms of the city, they'll move slowly in 'fear of being near an enemy place', along with some sort of message. This would not only prevent everyone from seeing the 'enemy' message right off novice and hurting the delicate sensibilities of the novices, but would also help prevent them from wandering in.

As for RP, there are plenty of places in the open that are public meeting points, and I daresay we need more to encourage RP across sides. It shouldn't have to be in your home. Why invite trouble in your own home? You wouldn't let a thief into your house so you could discuss why he wouldn't rob you, would you?

Well I don't know if you mean me, but you quoted me so I'm going to reply (though the reply is meant generally, not exclusively aimed at you).  

I don't think anyone has said you absolutely 'should' change anything or that something should be made illegal (*), especially in regards to Enorian. This entire discussion has started with Bloodloch afterall. Some have suggested an alternate approach and why they believe it would be beneficial (myself included). Others have argued in support of the status-quo. There are legitimate reasons for both really. Personally, I think it is important to question 'commonly' done things once in a while and getting people to actually think about it. If it turns out there is support for a change, it will be changed, if not it won't.

(*) With the exception of using the website-honours as a source of IC information. Imo, that really should stop. If no player consensus can be reached then I am in support of either removing this part or changing it to mirror the in game honours 1:1.

And because you provided such a great example: "Why invite trouble in your own home? You wouldn't let a thief into your house so you could discuss why he wouldn't rob you, would you?".

You're correct, in real life I absolutely wouldn't. In real life, living in a boring country is the best that can happen to you. Boring means there's no war, no great social unrest, people aren't commonly knifed on the street etc. So no, I wouldn't invite trouble into my own home, just as I wouldn't suddenly have the genius idea to buy a holiday residence in <insert country at war>.

However, in a game? Hell YES. I'd totally invite the thief into my home, I'd totally argue with him not to rob me. Maybe he'd rob me, maybe he wouldn't, maybe he argues back, maybe he knifes me, maybe he kidnaps me, maybe he just hits me on the head and rolls his eyes... there are really many possibilities and because it is a game they are intriguing. No one plays a boring game after all - at least, not for very long.

In my opinion that is a fundamental difference between real life and a game. You want your real life environment to be boring, but you absolutely do not want your game environment to be boring. I think that should very much be taken into consideration.

Azrael

Woot woot!!!! Randomly checked the WHO on the website, returns this;

Character Information
Information about Azrael from Aetolia

Name: Azrael
Full name: Overlord Azrael Bahir'an, Earthen Priest
Level: Azudim Lord of the 1st Circle

Send Message to Azrael

 

Guild and city affiliation has been removed!

Tza

Well almost. If you clicky the who page + character while logged out on the website, guild and city still shows. It doesn't if you log in though.

(Hint @Razmael).