Enemy Status

Haven

This discussion was created from comments split from: Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE.

Teani

This is more of a *sigh* moment than actual anguish, but I really dislike when people just brand you an enemy without much ado. 

Teani was branded an enemy of Bloodloch quite some time ago. Reason when asked (because none was given voluntarily): having no title and being inside Enorian at the time. However, the one who enemied her had been told she was a member of the Atabahi, who had an active treaty with Bloodloch, and a simple HELP ATABAHI would have confirmed she was a Secretary in the guild.

Message was drowned in whatever Teani was doing, and she was told later and managed to fix things. (I've messaged Razmael about this, asking if it's possible to get messages even if you are online when being branded, just so you don't accidentally miss something in general spam.)

More recently, she was branded an enemy again, without any questions, tells, messages or rp at all. I've RP'd out every change my character has gone through recently and worked really hard to keep a low profile ICly about where Teani has been heading, even asking people to not reveal she is or even considers being part of their organization. The only outward indication of her alignment would have been when she became a Yeleni by Dhar's hand. However, before that happened, Ezalor branded her an enemy to Bloodloch, without adding a reason or even sending a tell.

Now, I understand there are things as secret intelligence, information gathering and such in the game, but it's a roleplaying game. Aren't people supposed to at least, you know... try to rp?

Carson

AFAIK, if you're not a member of an allied organization to Bloodloch, you're branded an enemy. No matter what. If they found out you weren't in the Atabahi - Even if you hadn't joined Enorian/Duiran/Lighter guild - they'd revoke the allied status.

Edit: Not to say it doesn't suck to be declared an enemy with little information as to why, but they've had that policy for a pretty long time.

Serrice

I wonder if there's a script you can run where you grab all the names in WHO, run them through the website, and then auto enemy whoever shows up on a blacklist of non-allied orgs.

Erzsebet

Serrice said:

I wonder if there's a script you can run where you grab all the names in WHO, run them through the website, and then auto enemy whoever shows up on a blacklist of non-allied orgs.

...I hope not. Especially since that information isn't at all IC.

Lin

There's literally no difference between what Serrice suggested, and using HONORS to do the same. Except that one method is a lot faster.

Ezalor

Teani said:

This is more of a *sigh* moment than actual anguish, but I really dislike when people just brand you an enemy without much ado. 

Teani was branded an enemy of Bloodloch quite some time ago. Reason when asked (because none was given voluntarily): having no title and being inside Enorian at the time. However, the one who enemied her had been told she was a member of the Atabahi, who had an active treaty with Bloodloch, and a simple HELP ATABAHI would have confirmed she was a Secretary in the guild.

Message was drowned in whatever Teani was doing, and she was told later and managed to fix things. (I've messaged Razmael about this, asking if it's possible to get messages even if you are online when being branded, just so you don't accidentally miss something in general spam.)

More recently, she was branded an enemy again, without any questions, tells, messages or rp at all. I've RP'd out every change my character has gone through recently and worked really hard to keep a low profile ICly about where Teani has been heading, even asking people to not reveal she is or even considers being part of their organization. The only outward indication of her alignment would have been when she became a Yeleni by Dhar's hand. However, before that happened, Ezalor branded her an enemy to Bloodloch, without adding a reason or even sending a tell.

Now, I understand there are things as secret intelligence, information gathering and such in the game, but it's a roleplaying game. Aren't people supposed to at least, you know... try to rp?

I go here:

http://www.aetolia.com/game/honors/aetolia/teani

See that you are Acendril and enemy you. That's...basically it. I run people's names by that website occasionally and enemy people who aren't a part of an allied organization. I really don't have the time to personally seek out and RP with every single person I am going to enemy and Bloodloch has a no-questions-asked-no-treaty-means-you're-an-enemy policy going on anyways. Said RP would pretty much consist of a few snide comments and an enemy status.

I mean I get that you wanted to keep it hush hush and all but there are many ways to find out where you stand IC besides asking you directly. You can't exactly expect to hide it for long, regardless of if someone comes and talks to you personally about it or not.

And I did add a reason! No treaty. Because I am enemying you for having no treaty .

Arbre

Ezalor said:

I go here:

http://www.aetolia.com/game/honors/aetolia/teani

That's a website.  Doesn't it make it a bit OOC?  Not sure on that one, never liked it showing guilds and such.

Ezalor

Hmm, right. It does show information that's different from stuff that's accessible in game. You can read and send messages from the same module so I've always just assumed stuff from there can be taken IC.

Zun

It's meta by nature, but the ambiguity of mechanics has always put the distinction of IC or OOC, by and large, in the community's hands. Personally, I think it reeks of lazy beurochracy, and I struggle to see the point of organisations that have grown too complacent to act within the confines of the game proper.

Ezalor

...really now? You see no point to having Bloodloch exist because there's a shortcut in place to carry out its enemy policies?

I get that using the website does blur IC/OOC lines. I've always assumed it was kosher as people have carried out IC conversations with me before using the messaging system from there. If it's not, then fair enough - it would make tracking down enemies harder, sure, but I do see how it stretches what could be considered IC. It might just be an oversight by the admins or a relic from when honours did show guilds (I think it did a while back? Don't quite remember).

But saying there's no point to an organization and yada yada about bureaucracy because of this is going a bit far, don't you think?

Moirean

I think the website may also bypass the hide honors artifact.

Erzsebet

It shows guild, which you have to guess at unless someone helpfully titles themselves with an obvious guild title. So yes, it's completely metagaming.

If it showed in your standard honours what your guild was, that's at least marginally capable of being IC, though IMO it's still metagaming unless you look at it in-game--not in a way that's horribly detrimental to the game or anything, but still meta.

Angwe

@Ezalor Spoilers, bro! >.<

Zun

Ezalor said:

But saying there's no point to an organization and yada yada about bureaucracy because of this is going a bit far, don't you think?

Sure, there's a bit of hyperbole there, but Aetolia is already rolling down the slippery slope of meta-politicking (read: AIM backstabbing, Enorian superfriends, Spirean Senate 'hot-potato'), and as each vague mechanic or medium becomes acceptable, so the next is pushed. What's 'acceptable' or not is decided at the point where meta becomes too obvious and obnoxious to ignore. And for me, for the sake of simplicity, acceptable is what occurs within Aetolia, within the purview of your character.

So going outside of the game, bringing back information with you, then applying a blanket ban without the intention or inclination to participate in roleplay to justify or explain, with even a passing nod of acknowledgement to the narrative roots of the game you're playing? To me, it defeats the purpose of Ezalor being in an administrative position. It defeats the purpose of having an organization to bring characters together--or to polarize them. And surely that purpose is to play a game, cooperatively and competitively, hopefully having a bit of fun in the process?

Ezalor

Oh believe me, I take no joy in watching out for and enemying everyone I can find. I do enjoy RP and I do try my best to avoid metagaming and to separate IC/OOC. I realize using the honours system on the website does blur this line, but this business of enemying has become so routine and uninvolved it's basically a system of more or less simulating a mechanic. And for almost all of the playerbase, that's just what it is. I found an invaluable resource nestled together with many other website IC features and used it. It's not something I intended to use maliciously, nor did I believe its use would be malicious; to most players, including myself, this has settled into a routine mechanic.

I can see now that @Teani is the exception and she was expecting more of it. I'm sorry if I ruined what you were going for there with the secrecy thing.

I won't try to convince anyone that using that website is "right," because I'm not sure about that myself. Just giving my reasons for it. And if nothing else, this should bring it to the attention of the admin for whether they want to leave it as is or remove it.

Moirean

Frankly, I never really understood why Bloodloch was so adamant about the enemy status thing. It definitely off-puts a lot of new players, especially, to be enemied to an org as soon as they start playing.

Teani

@Ezalor and anyone else using a website to check honors... whatever doesn't show to you when your character does HONORS <person> in the game, is unknown to your character. Make it a rule not to use anything you haven't seen between your promptlines or comes from an OOC clan or web and you should be quite fine.

 

Yes, my carefully set up mission, one I've been working on since I left House Lunare several weeks ago, and have hinted at to a number of people in the game already, was completely ruined by that one single act. I asked the guild not to title me, specifically, and to not announce my joining them, keeping silent about me being there. I was even denied entry into Enorian for wanting to be 'sneaky' about it, still rolling with the RP and adding some depth to my character. She is still trying to fix the Bloodloch enemy situation ICly. Not by lying, but rather withholding information by saying "I can't see how any organization could claim me as a member." since she's asked for them to keep it quiet. It gives you an opening, should you want to return to IC from OOC. 

Illikaal

I mean, it USED to do it automatically. But then the Admins decided to remove the automatic enemyship to Bloodloch for whatever reason. Cept, the BL playerbase took it upon themselves to start manually doing it. Nobody knows why. 

The Way Things Are Done:  Start with 5 monkeys locked in a cage.  Hang a banana from the roof on a string and place a set of stairs under it.  Before long the monkeys will go to the stairs and start to climb toward the banana.  As soon as the first monkey touches the stairs, hose the other monkeys with cold water.  After a while another monkey makes an attempt with the same result. All the other are sprayed with cold water.  Pretty soon, when another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it.  Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and goes to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.  Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm!  Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth. Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked.  Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey.  After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water.  Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana.  Why not?  Because as far as they know that’s the way it’s always been done around here. And that, my friends, is how company policy begins.  Example of "five monkeys" in action:  Why? / Why not?  -because that's the way things are done around here.

Macavity

Moirean said:

Frankly, I never really understood why Bloodloch was so adamant about the enemy status thing. It definitely off-puts a lot of new players, especially, to be enemied to an org as soon as they start playing.

use to be where Bloodloch was like Enoiran in that if the Living was auto enemied, but then they started to let in Living Azudims and living allies and such.... and had to change that.   Why it was changed is beyond me and I think it shouldl be changed back to stop people from having to enemy novices out of the Isle.  I mean Enorian has it set where if you are Undead you are killed on site there. 

Moirean

I know it used to be automatic, but that was changed, so I assume the intent was to not have people be mass enemied anymore?

Teani

As for enemying Novices, I don't think any organization should be allowed to brand someone an enemy before they leave Novicehood. I doubt any novice, fresh from the Isle is going to do something that can't be handled in some other way. If it's an alt or something, made to cause trouble, just find another way. Once they are off NWHO, each org can do as they please after finding out their affiliations through RP.

For some reason, I got this image of a noob, fresh off the Isle shouting something like "I'm an almighty Luminary, defender of Light! I will smite all Undead at first sight!" Then proceeding to try and use the 'Kill' command. <.<

Ezalor

Moirean said:

Frankly, I never really understood why Bloodloch was so adamant about the enemy status thing. It definitely off-puts a lot of new players, especially, to be enemied to an org as soon as they start playing.

If I'm not mistaken this topic has been discussed to death in the past. There are valid arguments on both sides, I guess. Enorian does the same thing with all Undead.

Teani said:

@Ezalor and anyone else using a website to check honors... whatever doesn't show to you when your character does HONORS <person> in the game, is unknown to your character. Make it a rule not to use anything you haven't seen between your promptlines or comes from an OOC clan or web and you should be quite fine.

 

Yes, my carefully set up mission, one I've been working on since I left House Lunare several weeks ago, and have hinted at to a number of people in the game already, was completely ruined by that one single act. I asked the guild not to title me, specifically, and to not announce my joining them, keeping silent about me being there. I was even denied entry into Enorian for wanting to be 'sneaky' about it, still rolling with the RP and adding some depth to my character. She is still trying to fix the Bloodloch enemy situation ICly. Not by lying, but rather withholding information by saying "I can't see how any organization could claim me as a member." since she's asked for them to keep it quiet. It gives you an opening, should you want to return to IC from OOC. 

Again, I'm sorry. Wasn't my intention to ruin your experience.

"No organization could claim me as a member" will get you slapped with enemy status just the same though, especially as you are living. It's not that Bloodloch just enemies people belonging to enemy organizations, it's that Bloodloch enemies everyone without a treaty. The only way it would really go back is if you lied about still being Atabahi or something like that, and that would be verified rather quickly. 

As you experienced yourself, you were enemied simply for being in Enorian. Bloodloch isn't exactly discriminate in its enemying.

Tza

I just don't see how using the website to carry information IC is right in any way. You very much can glean information there that you wouldn't be able to find out easily (if at all) ICly. Take that honour hiding artifact. I know @Azrael has one. I can't honour him IG but I sure as hell can do it on the website: http://www.aetolia.com/game/honors/Aetolia/Azrael (also to answer your question @Moirean). If I go and take that IC then the artifact sure loses some value.

If you ever want to RP keeping your guild, city or experience level secret, you're pretty much screwed.

I also seriously doubt @Ezalor is the only one doing it. I still don't grasp how Enorian knew the very moment I finished the intro that I was Syssin. It's not like I visited the Guildhall or anything (Not sure if nwho shows guild, but even if so, would people watch that 24/7? Seems excessive.)

(Kind of makes me wonder if there couldn't be an opt-out from the website honour. But then, doing that would basically legalise that information being taken IC wouldn't it?)

Phoenecia

The mass enemying in Bloodloch and Enorian still happens, but the excuse is that it's done because ICly, the people being enemied are diametrically opposed to the factions ideals. If your org considers something to be an abomination, why wouldn't you enemy it? This train of thought is so deeply ingrained ICly that trying to alter it is practically political suicide, and will have people on your case about allowing 'enemies' to wander the streets freely.

Teani

@Tza: NWHO shows guild if you choose one before you leave Novicehood

@Ezalor: Only reason she's said that at all is because she has to try something to bypass the stupid enemy status she shouldn't have gotten in the first place. She could have joined the Sciomancers for all you know, and I believe they have a treaty. The point being, she could say that the guild she has joined was asked, due to a delicate mission of hers, not to reveal she is a member.

Tza

Teani said:

@Tza: NWHO shows guild if you choose one before you leave Novicehood

Well drat.

Ezalor

Yeah, you seriously overestimate Bloodloch's propensity to be careful with enemying then. It would really be "oh it's a secret? Well until someone confirms your status, have a nice enemying." Again, as you saw with the previous enemy status, it's more about erring on the side of aggression. Enemy first, ask questions later, that sort of thing.

I am sorry I did it the way I did but I can honestly say it would have happened sooner rather than later. Even if the Yeleni thing didn't give you away, someone looking at who or passing by would have noticed where you were. Even when you -were- protected by treaty it happened. Again, not trying to justify using the website, just giving an explanation.

And @Tza no, NWHO does not show your guild. I know this because I spam the hell out of that thing to find people to enemy. It merely shows a "No" if you haven't chosen a guild or nothing at all if you have chosen one.

Teani

Yeah, still sucks that there's no RP involved. Maybe change that insteady of doing like those 5 monkeys?

Teani

Oh, right, it shows you have chosen a guild, but not which one on NWHO. My bad!

Moirean

Ezalor said:

And @Tza no, NWHO does not show your guild. I know this because I spam the hell out of that thing to find people to enemy.

I feel like there are probably much better uses for NWHO....