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Announce post #3123: Experimental Changes
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Nothing is going to get better. It's not.”
― Dr. Seuss, The Lorax
With the current changes, there is never a reason as to why I'd choose an aff elixir over health unless Voyria was in later stages; however, Voyria is only a true threat from one class and that is Syssin. If a Syssin is using Voyria, then they've usually already achieved a lock and are using thinblood to put voyria into the later stages so you die. Additionally, Syssin do not pressure health whilst delivering their afflictions, so there is little threat on that front. The only two classes I can really see potentially making use of this is Vampire and Carnifex, but I'm fairly confident that these are not positive changes to either class. They just come off as really gimmicky at best.
I'm still not a fan of the hiding changes because it disproportionately hampers Syssin, whilst simultaneously favoring those with the camouflage artifact. The shroud artifact and skill has been nerfed in terms of effectiveness with no price reduction to compensate, and the same logic extends to Lifevision and the Artifact Goggles. This is kind of why people are in a hurry to see these reverted as either the administration should lower the price on these artifacts, or be prepared to issue refunds for them because they're frankly nowhere near what they're presently being sold for. I repeat that I view this as a low blow so shortly after a salvage promo as well, and it shakes my confidence as to whether to buy into future promos because of the fear of future "experimental changes" that may come shortly afterwards.
Shroud, lifevision, and salvage goggles level 9 (900 credits "perceived value" double+ that when you're buying salvage from players) have been affected in big ways. The camouflage relic (which is one of the less run relics and has a ridiculously inflated value because of that) is now EVEN MORE valuable while maintaining its rarity.
All of this ON TOP OF the skills that were changed being bugged and not working in any way (Deathlore Spiritsight does nothing right now). Firstaid won't sip defensive elixirs. Salvage goggles are still giving the heatsight defense (with no way to know if it works the old way or not)
Pit is now useless and will be unused once again.
The rest of the approved reports for this round of approvals+implementations are just sitting there.
There are still submitted reports waiting for approval or rejection.
It's just... A lot, and none of it has good feels attached.
One post that says "you guys were loudest about celerity" and reverting the changes for that and only that does nothing for any of the other valid, well-written concerns that myself or fellow players have made. Not that I agree with all of them, or have as much invested in some of them, but there are others who do and this doesn't even factor in the players who don't visit the forums.
At the end of the day, please understand that my criticism is directed at the decision and never directed at the admin itself. Keroc does good things for Aetolia and answers many of questions when I ask them about deeper mechanics. I just think the decision of how these experimental changes were handled was not done very well, and I think they should be reverted for the time being. If they're something that Keroc really feels strongly about, then maybe we should revert them for now and then have a town hall to discuss them as a whole, why Keroc feels they'd be good, and the pros and cons of each of the changes.
Regarding stealth changes and backstab:
This seems to be false, and backstab is still pretty dead for those of us without chameleon skin.
Experience Gained: 47720 (Special) [total: 2933660]
Needed for LVL: 122.00775356245
I also noticed that I lost heatsight from my goggles that I just barely got after years of patiently waiting and looking forward to. Is there going to be an equally useful skill added to the goggles to replace heatsight by chance?
You can keep Pit, I don't even care. Just unbreak everything.
Do something. Say anything.
That's on me, and I apologize.
1 - Elixir Changes
Most of Aetolian combat revolves around priorities and this/that choices. A number of things like levitation had no choice involved, it was just act/react. The intention here is to bring them in line. Act-React is BORING.
2 - Celerity/Recovery
Distance means little. Ranged combat just doesn't work in Aetolia well. Before, room blocking and movement hindering were the only real lockdowns. The thought here was to give a midrange concept. People could be faster than one another, you might even have a chance to catch up. It also opens up a new range of afflictions, like shock, giving design space for new classes.
3 - Hiding
Beyond the irritation of act-react, there's the passive counter. If you have heatsight or lifevision, illusions and hiding do nothing. Illusions/Hiding have a cost, the counters are passive and do not. The idea here was to bring those things into a more active scenario.
4 - Test Servers
They aren't resource free. They either run on alternate virtual machines (and are slow) or technically use Aetolia's resources, affecting the main game. Aetolia Classic took more resources than intended to make sure it wouldn't affect Real Aetolia. Historically, test servers only get momentary attention by a few players, which makes the data not useful for normal gameplay. A test server also needs admin attention. Keroc running a test server is a Keroc who isn't working on normal Aetolia. We literally cannot even pay enough for them to be worth the effort, it's been tried.
5 - Allocation of Resources
I don't know how to say this any more simply: Resources are finite. Razmael works on X, Keroc on Y, Tiur on admin things, and volunteers whatever strikes their fancy. Mining is not done and adding Keroc to Mining will not make it faster, two people is not twice as fast. Every schedule I've ever had puts Keroc on classleads four times a year, so this is all within normal. I could ask him to help Razmael, but then classleads will stop while he gets up to speed. Volunteers do not just get thrown at tasks. For instance, Ylemnics was a volunteer project and was not scheduled officially, it was done when it was done and it had no effect on other projects.
While these changes seemed random and tacked together, from our perspective, they were all focused around the same thing: Design Space. Each change opened up room within existing design to add more possibilities within the game. This is a bit of our focus sometimes, to avoid constantly adding new things over top existing.
In the future, please know that immediate requests for artifact refunds, personal attacks, and dog-piling... these just hurt and discourage us. While we're always open to a dialog if you feel your monetary investment has been impacted, doing so respectfully can make these types of discussions much more productive. We are not a AAA game studio, everyone employed here does it not just for the money, but because we love Aetolia and want to. Keroc does a lot of this out of desire to see the game better and more interesting. No one is trying to invalidate your investment or ruin your time. It does mean, however, that we have an emotional investment too!
Sidenote: That's my explanation of the methodology behind the changes. Keroc has smarter opinions.
forgot a letter.
I've died a couple of times to voyria while bashing now but I actually like the change, but this is speaking as someone who isn't a combatant. I'm sure the change is going to be equally parts frustrating (updating systems take a lot of time) and exciting (opening up new combat opportunities).
Salvage goggles have had items removed after Aetolia just ran a sale on the item to make them. This feels really bad as a customer and I would hope that you would understand why.
1) Is there a plan in place to offer some sort of compensation to owners of this artifact whether by replacing or adding different functionality, or something else entirely?
The lifevision artifact served the purpose of removing yet another mana drain on top of being able to see everyone. For some classes this isn't an issue, but for others, on top of using metawake and any associated class drains, it only adds more fuel to the mana drain fire.
2) Aetolia has a history of being extremely reluctant to change or devalue artifacts, why was this one so easily changed and why do you believe it is still worth 750 credits with only half of its original functionality?
These seem like admin questions and weren't answered in your post.
All you did was take functionality away from lifevision. You removed value from two(2) expensive artifacts (750cr for straight lifevision, 900cr perceived value(more like 1800cr) in salvage goggles) without changing the fact that it's still a passive counter, i.e. put up a defense(hypersight) -> illusions are passively countered. This, on top of the fact that no one was asking for combat illusions to make a return 10 years after they were systematically removed from the game, and made mostly non-functional for combat.
As for hiding, heatsight is now a balanceless, non-aggressive search, and movement strips hidden. So instead of act->react, or passive counters it just doesn't exist anymore. I feel as if the mark was missed somewhere.
In six days, you should have had a plan - for both how to move forward regarding these changes and implementing artifact changes/refunds. You're right, you're not a AAA game studio, but you're also not a ragtag startup underdog. IRE is 20+ years old. The lack of respect for players and inability (or non-desire?) to communicate clearly, openly, and transparently is inexcusable. And it's not the first time with you as Producer. There is a whole lot of "do as I say, not as I do" coming from the Pools regarding behaviour and respect, and it's just kind of sickening to watch at this point.
Elixir Changes:
Yes, but sometimes what is boring is preferable to that which is frustrating, or that which contributes to said frustration by undermining the system currently in place with minute, experimental changes. Case in point from another IRE game: Lusternia had a similar issue with elixirs known as purgatives. Lusternia's answer was to overhaul the entire curing system while simultaneously not heeding the feedback from many of their experienced combatants. Lusternia's combat system is now, in so far as I'm aware of the criticism of major combatants who have played everywhere, regarded as even worse than it was before. The changes marginalized certain archetypes such as Warrior, and trivialized afflictions even more than they already had previously. My point with this example is: Act-React is boring, but boring is sometimes preferable to the alternative. I do not agree that the answer is to put these elixirs on the shared balance with health elixir. If your goal was creating a situation that undermines Act-React, it isn't successful. If anything, you've simply made these elixirs insignificant and unlikely to be replaced in the midst of combat if going against a class that has even the slightest bit of alpha damage or mana drain. The reason for this is because there are very, VERY few situations where health elixir, or even mana elixir, should be prioritized below these elixirs because that can mean death. If you're dead, the notion of raising frost, venom, or levitation is moot. A few exceptions exist, sure, but the only time Immunity comes into play is really with Syssin, and a Syssin is only employing Voyria once you've most assuredly been locked and given thinblood, at which point drinking an elixir becomes irrelevant as you've got anorexia and can't heal it. As a related aside, one of the catalysts that brought about this change sooner than was intended was Pit, but I have already iterated why this change still makes Pit a non-decision in an earlier post. It is preferable to simply fall into the Pit if you're the primary target, or just quickly ensure that the Indorani is incapable of ensorcelling. The amount of time it takes for levitation to be stripped AND for the Pit tick to fire again is plenty of time for Spirit to immediately mount a response and target those ensorcelling. In short, your intended goal was not achieved, and instead you've created a ton of client-side work that needs to be done for these changes, work that needs to be made for Firstaid to accomodate these changes effectively, and more all for something that did not achieve the result you were intending. Act-React is simply the cornerstone of how IRE combat works at the base level, it's the very concept of code-based triggers and scripts as a case-in-point, and it will take a massive overhaul to change that which goes far, far beyond what you've touched here.
Celerity/Recovery
I don't necessarily disagree with the existence of something like Shock, nor do I disagree with the underlying premise that distance means little; however, as I said in an earlier post, a suspension of belief is sometimes necessary for games such as MUDs for the sake of your players. Ask Starmourn how players view the act of it taking ages to travel around in a ship, and they'd probably tell you that they spend most of that time AFK and doing something else. I'd rather stay engaged with the game that I'm playing. I can say with certainty that it is the same with aetherships in Lusternia and just makes things more automated than you'd probably care for them to be. Honestly, the existence of artifacts like wings and amulet are always going to trivalize travel and escapes, and you and I both know that these are popular artifacts and money makers for IRE, so they're not going to get rid of them. By touching the regular means of travel, you only widen the disparity between the "haves" and "have nots" on something that should be relatively minor to begin with. It still takes time to get from Point A to Point B, but a multitude of classes have means at their disposal to simply bring their allies straight to them or rescue them from dicey situations. Sure, there's counterplay, but no one is going to monolith the entirety of the world with comms being what they are. If your goal was to stop people from running so easily, then Shock/Recovery is a good step forward, but it should come into play when players are subject to an aggression check made by themselves or by others. Reducing the player's ability to get around when not in combat situations is just tedious and frustrating. Reducing the player's ability to get around when in combat and trying to escape would be far better received, and I guarantee that this change would've been embraced far more had it simply had an aggression check attached to it. That'd be my recommendation for it moving forward.
(Side note: I also don't fully quite understand the idea of how ranged combat is related to these mechanics. I've always been of the opinion that ranged combat, being that it is a relatively risk free option, should come with less returns since the player is exhibiting less risk by not standing in the same room as everyone else.)
Hiding
Yeah, but the solution isn't to gut Hiding, Lifevision, Heatsight, Shroud, and a bunch of other abilities that have artifacts, antiquated artifacts, and class skills associated with them. Not unless you're prepared to deal with the inevitable fallout resulting from that, especially when you offered those effects in a promo not more than a month ago now. That is just begging for a terrible response. If you wanted to make Hide more effective and disagreed with the proliferation of Heatsight, the best solution would've been to remove Heatsight from racial skills while allowing the classes that possessed it or Lifevision in some form or another to retain those skills in their previous forms in order to act as a counter to Hiding. What you've done right now is make coldblooded useless, grossly inflated the value of the Camouflage relic, gimped Syssin Backstab, reduced the value of the antiquated goggles after JUST having a promo for them on sale, impacted the worth of the Lifevision artifact WITHOUT addressing its cost, impacted the value of the Shroud artifact without addressing its cost, downgraded Lycanthrope technically, made illusions better for combat reasons (and I'll get into why this is terrible shortly), downgraded Shaman and Carnifex, and indirectly buffed Indorani/Sciomancer/Ascendril (which are three classes that probably did not need it right now). The best solution here, as I said before, would've been the removal of Heatsight as a racial skill for endgame and then adding some of the new racial skills that Grecht, Kobold, and others have had. There would've been some backlash to losing Heatsight, sure, but if there had been new racial skills to replace it (ones that would have minimal combat implications and really just offer QoL incentive and reasons for people to spend racial skill points) then I guarantee you'd have more positive than negative. I still feel that this is the best solution.
As for illusions, I'm going to tell you why server-side curing killed them for the most part, and why this was one of the most well-received changes across Aetolia, Achaea, and Imperian as a result. Coding anti-illusion is -hard-, flat out. It means that most of the functions that comprise your system at a client side level need checks, conditionals, and other "janky" means of implementation for the possibility that someone is using an illusion to force your client-side triggers to do something that can be potentially catastrophic for your character in a combat situation. However, it isn't Lifevision that makes illusions trivial, it's the existence of Firstaid. In short, all you've done with the Lifevision change is make it to where those with a majority of server-side curing have a massive advantage over those using client-side, when the advantage was arguably already with server-side curing due to the fact that it is free of latency restraints and will operate even if the player goes linkdead or otherwise. There is no major illusion that you can create that would fool server-side, and most combat-based illusions back in the day involved fooling curing balances. What Firstaid does not cover is offenses and a few other mechanics that need to generally reinforce someone's server-side curing on the client's end. The illusions that ended up being used by someone like Azami were generally to fool an individual into resetting their offense tracking, making the target think they were dead in order to pause their client side code, etc.. These are not fun to deal with, and breaking people's code is just anathema to what really should be involved with combat. It should be about taking advantage of people's poor curing priorities, or making an opponent over-commit when they should be running away. Additionally, if the goal was to make illusions better, then you still haven't done that as Hypersight is still 100% illusion detection while simultaneously being YET ANOTHER willpower drain on classes. If you look at the drains for most of the abilities in Aetolia, they are disproportionately weighted towards willpower. It's to a point where I question why endurance even exists as a resource. You've just made already will-starved classes like Carnifex, Shaman, Teradrim, and to an extent both Mages, struggle even more with having to counter a combat concept that hasn't been (and should not be) relevant since the advent of server-side curing.
Test Servers
Fine, but there needs to be greater transparency when changes like these are around the corner. One of the primary reasons that this generated the negative feedback that it did is because, despite what some folks in the Pools might believe, these were major changes that came out of nowhere and were not requested by the playerbase at large. Achaea has the ACC (Achaean Combat Council), which is not classleads, but has a number of combatants across the game discuss impending changes with the administration that may impact combat balance. It's also where the Garden can solicit or obtain feedback on potential changes and what they would mean for the playerbase prior to their implementation. I want to state why I feel this would be pertinent for Aetolia to implement. The reality is that the perspective that you guys have up in the Pools is detached and different from the perspective of the players, and this is especially true on things that impact combat at times if these changes are any indication, as well as some of the erroneous past judgments that Keroc has had to reverse course on in past liaisons. That is not a knock on Keroc, as people can make mistakes, but it simply means that you could take and accept perspectives from the playerbase into account prior to making massive changes in combat like this. Almost every fighter has come out against them for a variety of good, logical reasons, to a point where it is almost baffling as to how and why the Pools are digging in and justifying them. We've provided ample reasoning as to why they don't achieve your intended design goals, and I don't know what more can really be said on this front.
Allocation of Resources
I have nothing to say on this, because I know this already. I know that your resources are limited, I know that there is not time enough in the day for things. However, as someone who has worked in customer service and is a supervisor myself, you have to take perspective into account. The responses to some things would be far better if players just got a: "Hey. We're aware of this. I can't promise an immediate action on it due to other projects, but we will assess it as we are able" rather than what seems like being flat out ignored or forgotten. There have been a few times where I've sent messages or e-mails only to get flat out no response or update for months at a time. While I am patient, because I know and understand that IRE's resources are indeed limited, it is nonetheless immensely frustrating to feel forgotten about or really just ignored because the Pools just don't want to address it out of, by my perspective, a desire to avoid confrontation and conflict. I get that some players are going to be vitriolic, I get that some are going to be negative and mean about things, but that doesn't mean all of us are incapable of empathy or understanding. What I am incapable of understanding is how responses can simply go months without a single acknowledgement, and I think the Pools can relate to how that would feel if the shoe was on the other foot. I will repeat an earlier post that I appreciate everything that the administration and the Pools do. I try to be understanding, empathetic, and pleasant wherever and whenever I can. If I criticize decisions, it's not an attack on the administration or Aetolia's volunteers, it is simply because I care enough about the game to indicate that this is a bad design decision for a variety of reasons. I will never just say, "This fuckin' sucks". I will always outline why I think something is bad, I will admit if I end up being wrong or my logic is faulty, and I will always try to provide feedback or suggestions for change.
That is all I have to say on these matters. I sincerely hope you and Keroc will take them into consideration, especially in regards to reverting these changes. I've had very little drive to play Aetolia as of late simply because of them, and the lack of a response for an extended period (even if it was just a small one), was beyond frustrating. No one is going to judge the administration poorly if they come out and say, "Okay. These changes weren't great and we're reverting them", nor would it somehow be used as a weapon in the future against changes that the administration makes. The point ultimately is though that the playerbase, as a large whole, has rejected them. Regardless of your intent towards addressing certain issues, there is a reality that any leader needs to face when one of their ideas or suggestion is ultimately not well received. The solution isn't to dig in, but sometimes to also relent and look for or solicit different ideas moving forward.
I'll leave Keroc to handle specific opinions on the design space of the changes. He'll be better at handling the gritty details, I can only speak broadly at what we were looking to do, and how the other games do things.
Artifact refunds are for things that ARE changed. Most of this stuff could roll back, so no changes to valuations have happened yet. Our current plan is to finish up any classleads things to clear out Keroc's branch, then readdress Hide next. Specifically, lifevision. There can be some debate, but heatsight is seen as less of a big deal to nerf due to ease of access. Maybe all of this gets tossed.
Opinions on how things can be better done are always appreciated. I think we might salvage some good space out of this.
We actually are considering something like the Combat Council, sortof. I've been concerned because it becomes a sort of tacit "These are the only people whose opinions we care for" clique. We're undecided. It makes more work and would be the death of anything combat oriented between official classleads.
I thought we moved beyond the era of illusions. I'm not going through extensive lengths to code anti-illusion checks. That's why I paid close to 300 USD
At the very least, chameleon skin and backstab functionality need looking into. Even if it worked right, 'just shadow someone' isn't the functionality I'm talking about.
You can take this as the incessant screeching of some whinging player, but these mechanical changes coupled together with the response to said changes have sapped my will to participate in PVP/spend $ on the game. I hope the team considers reverting or making adjustments to address the concerns of this thread.
Edit: Worth noting that cliques aren't inherently a bad thing either. It's only if they're allowed to get to a toxic "holier than thou" level or instill some kind of exceptionalism over others that they become toxic, but if you have players that become an example of the latter, then they probably shouldn't be on the council.
@Tiur @Keroc
If it doesn't matter anymore, can you please remove gmcp.Char.Vitals.affelixir at some point? I understand it's just an experimental change, it's just a request to have done at some point.
Unless that's the plan... then you can ignore me and carry on. Thanks!
How many times does Aetolia need to prove to itself that it can't handle anything a clique could grab hold of before we just quit having ideas like that?