Announce post #3123: Experimental Changes

Toz

Bulrok said:

It was ruining my immersion. If anything, Keroc needs to go harder. Spinesreach and Bloodloch are on opposite sides of the continent. It should take RL days to get there.

I embraced realism long ago, Toz died of dysentery trying to make it back from the corner store.

It was six months to reply, however in the interim I was told that @Tiur was 'working on a reply', 'would reply soon', and 'had been busy but would get to it ASAP'. This was a week, a few weeks, etc. after I sent a very long email that was co-written and/or approved by the following players: Toz (obviously), Borscin, Mjoll, Kavithe, Iazamat, and Emir. In it, I first thanked the admin for the event, and their hard work, as well as suggested I hoped this would serve to 'clear the air' rather than attack. Below is the first paragraph of the email, and I tried to keep a similar tone throughout (and am happy to provide the full text on request):

Now that the war is over and tempers have had time to calm down (or at least, what passes for calm for some of us), we wanted to take some time to approach the administration about the war overall. This serves as an open letter from the Shadow faction so that all of our issues and irritations can be laid out at once. It isn't our intention to attack, just to lay out the list of things big and small so that the administration can get a sense for where and how this event missed the mark for us, and caused the friction that has existed since. At the end of the day, we all love the game (as evidenced by our login times) and want to be able to play and compete in it, and certain significant aspects of this war encouraged us not to play, or not to involve ourselves, or change how we involved ourselves.

When Tiur finally replied, the first line of his message was: 'Our initial intent was not to reply to this, as no good could come of it.'

There had also been a meeting suggested, for shadow players to air their grievances, but it was never scheduled- I was told it was because no one else had an interest/replied, but every other shadow player I spoke to said they had agreed to meet.

These sort of inconsistencies cropped up often enough that, at one time (after I left), there was a pseudo-coalition of shadow and lifer players in a Discord, trying to compare notes and find all the places one side had been told A while another had been told B, by the same administrator(s). I don't believe that email was ever sent, or that anything came of it, because there was disagreements on timeframe for acting and how to handle it- frustration levels obviously varied.

The aura rulings of however long ago that was now, this change, and some of the other changes mentioned are frustrating to see from afar, but I do at least feel confident in my decision to stay away from Aetolia. While I lurk the forums once in a blue moon, I'm only posting this to elaborate on what @Bulrok said- I want to make sure that, at the least, my side of the story is kept consistent.

Tiur

I generally don't reply to combat stuff without Keroc. We hear your complaints, and when he's up and coherent, we'll talk!

Escelika

Recovery is just Celerity but locked to 2(3 with a mount). HELP CELERITY states it's how fast you can move per second. They just added a SECOND celerity to counter the first for... reasons?

I had a big angry post about the whole thing and I deleted it but I'll try to summarize the point: whoever is making changes and not even considering how they will impact the community needs to adapt to a modern business sensibility. Someone already mentioned that we don't live in the time of few choices and it's one mass-drop of unwanted changes (With zero word on promised content) before more people begin to bail. BE TRANSPARENT. If you have the changes coded, wait a week or two and post about them first.

Context is the most important aspect to any situation. I can give someone a cake by handing it to them or I can push their face through it. One of those is going to be received better, despite it still being cake (and cake is good in this example).

Hawa

Escelika said:

cake is good

Thanks for clarifying that - I was about to lead a torches-and-pitchforks mob to the local bakery.

Fezzix

I'm reserving commentary until more about Shock gets implemented.

What classes/skills give it? How will it integrate into an offense? How long does the affliction last? Do certain classes recover from Shock faster than others?

I ask these questions because I see classes that demand more movement or fight resetting to be at a crippling disadvantage, while classes with fast momentum will be at an advantage.

Hawa

Drystin said:

Lastly I just wanna say, I really think this is a bad use of resources that produces very little return for IRE or the players. This is just my opinion but I really think time could be better spent creating those mirror classes two at a time (ie. one for spirit, one for shadow). Its been admitted that creating these mirror classes isn't even difficult, there is no balancing to be done, and its just a tedious task of rewriting skill messages and creating a theme. I didn't like the idea at first, but mirror classes would solve SO MANY more issues than changes like this one, not to mention that they would bring a big profit to IRE. They inherently balance tethers because each tether would have exactly the same skills available to them and you'll never have to approve/deny a classlead report based on "Thats a good change, but I don't want to buff/nerf <tether> currently." They also inherently halve tether tribalism based around perceived favoritism toward one tether or the other, a headache that I'm sure our staff could do without. They add additional lore to the game, more things for people to do, more artifacts to buy, more classes to spend lessons on, etc. etc.

Just my thoughts, and I sincerely don't mean to sound like a jerk but the majority of your customers definitely enjoy playing the game a whole lot more than running from point A to B or making drastic system coding fixes to accommodate game changes that just seemed needless to begin with.

Quoting for the Big Agree. New mages took literal years. Mining has passed at least one expected release date. Loads of things we've been promised - both game-wide (think tying up world events) and locally (Indorani faction) - are nowhere in sight. When expectations have been set for the playerbase (not BY but FOR) and missed so frequently it's a meme (SoonTM), dropping things that clearly involved some admin time but no one asked for is... an odd decision, in my opinion. It seems like there are weird priorities somewhere.

Ehtias

Tiur said:

I generally don't reply to combat stuff without Keroc. We hear your complaints, and when he's up and coherent, we'll talk!

I would like to say this isn't only combat related as movement isn't only use for combat, while the rest of it is combat related. I am drinking various sour beers and being nice. Also i have a brownie that has walnuts in it.

Carnifex as the largest guild in the game by both lung, people that drink, and alcohol content have decided to overrule any and all such decisions and annex all locations in the game as our newest keep. Resistance is futile just like not choking on Oonies immense sausage is.

Xavin

@Tiur as @Ehtias said, this effects every aspect of the game that involves movement and has impacted multiple abilities across several skills both class and general as well as artifacts, relics, promo items, and antiquated artifacts.

Ayegor

Hawa said:

Quoting for the Big Agree. New mages took literal years. Mining has passed at least one expected release date. Loads of things we've been promised - both game-wide (think tying up world events) and locally (Indorani faction) - are nowhere in sight. When expectations have been set for the playerbase (not BY but FOR) and missed so frequently it's a meme (SoonTM), dropping things that clearly involved some admin time but no one asked for is... an odd decision, in my opinion. It seems like there are weird priorities somewhere.

This was my thought when Ylemnics was dropped. It's an awesome system, the people responsible for it deserve praise and accolades, and clearly people who are into it love it, but I look at the way it works and all the documentation alone that goes with and just think... okay, this volunteer wasn't asked to contribute something else to the game, something else on the roadmap that has been promised for so long?

Fezzix

Ehtias said:

Tiur said:

I generally don't reply to combat stuff without Keroc. We hear your complaints, and when he's up and coherent, we'll talk!

I would like to say this isn't only combat related as movement isn't only use for combat, while the rest of it is combat related. I am drinking various sour beers and being nice. Also i have a brownie that has walnuts in it.

Carnifex as the largest guild in the game by both lung, people that drink, and alcohol content have decided to overrule any and all such decisions and annex all locations in the game as our newest keep. Resistance is futile just like not choking on Oonies immense sausage is.

Yes, but the celerity changes are motivated by combat. I guarantee these changes are intended to revolve around Shock and changing how players think about movement in combat. I'm pretty sure Keroc wants to force more tactical thinking.

But like I said in my post above, different classes demand more movement than others that can entrench themselves or have fast momentum so they don't disengage as often. I foresee major balance issues.

Why not just make Recovery = Celerity? If you have Shock, Recovery is 0 either way. If the changes were intended to revolve around the use of Shock, then I see no reason for Recovery to be so low by default.

Ardent

I'm gonna go ahead and say this. Because of how I'm seeing it.

Tumbling is going to become a bigger thing during fights now, -unless- shock is going to end up causing you to be unable to tumble since you will have no celerity/recovery. If that's the case, delete tumble.

Oonagh

Whispers from the back, "You know what fixes tether balance issues....."



MIRROR CLASSES.

Tetchta

Fezzix said:

Yes, but the celerity changes are motivated by combat. I guarantee these changes are intended to revolve around Shock and changing how players think about movement in combat. I'm pretty sure Keroc wants to force more tactical thinking.

Scratching my head over here over how being able to burst move your base celerity at first, and then otherwise being limited in long-term travel to the slowest possible speed, is a combat-related change though. I mean, if anything, it should be the other way around--being able to zip away 8+ rooms (for some folk) immediately is pretty much all you need to get away--that slower travel speed after the fact isn't going to change much. And in that case, a combat timer seems a lot more practical a solution than this weird "here's your cup that we drip-feed rooms into" method.

Ayastia

Fezzix said:

I generally don't reply to combat stuff without Keroc. We hear your complaints, and when he's up and coherent, we'll talk!

I would like to say this isn't only combat related as movement isn't only use for combat, while the rest of it is combat related. I am drinking various sour beers and being nice. Also i have a brownie that has walnuts in it. Carnifex as the largest guild in the game by both lung, people that drink, and alcohol content have decided to overrule any and all such decisions and annex all locations in the game as our newest keep. Resistance is futile just like not choking on Oonies immense sausage is.

Yes, but the celerity changes are motivated by combat. I guarantee these changes are intended to revolve around Shock and changing how players think about movement in combat. I'm pretty sure Keroc wants to force more tactical thinking. But like I said in my post above, different classes demand more movement than others that can entrench themselves or have fast momentum so they don't disengage as often. I foresee major balance issues. Why not just make Recovery = Celerity? If you have Shock, Recovery is 0 either way. If the changes were intended to revolve around the use of Shock, then I see no reason for Recovery to be so low by default.

You are much more knowledgeable about combat than me but here is how I see it. Person A decided to run. Person B chases. Beyond initial burst, both are slow as crap. Especially if shock is limited to just a few classes as it likely will be. 

Fezzix

If you have Shock and run out of celerity, you're suddenly immobile. Recovery exists for combat reasons.

Still, having it so low is pointless. It should be equal to Celerity so normal movement in non combat situations is unaffected. If Shock makes Recovery 0 (which is what it does), then why not have it equal Celerity by default?

Seurimas

As a seemingly lone voice of support, I'll share my perspective. Summarized in a few points:

* I've never bought a transportation item, and never wanted one of them. They definitely cheapen the experience for me. The one exception is in farming sect points for the transportation item because it seems flavorful.

* I'm usually sitting at 3 celerity. I know full well how far the Itzatl Morass is from Spinesreach. I don't *like* that it takes that long, but I appreciate the crunchiness of that distance.

* Shock seems like a versatile mechanic, that could be put to good use to make fights more interesting.

* The stealth arms race has been reduced to a handful of sight defences, rather than requiring any navigation of different circumstances. I'm cautiously optimistic this can make stealth more interesting.

* I think only backstab is left in a terrible place with this change. Some relief is needed there.

Nisavi

Recovery is better if it's active when the game detects aggression against you or you against another within a certain span of time, like 15 seconds or so. It should be business as usual otherwise. However, it's worth noting that the existence of wings, amulet, translocator, and other escape skills make Recovery's existence ultimately moot -- and just needlessly burdens those without artifacts than those with. I say that as someone with some of these artifacts that it just widens the disparity.

Additionally, the issue with people running isn't just them running away, it's the ability for people to indefinitely stall by doing things that I won't list here because, frankly, I don't want to proliferate the tactics any more than they're already used. Suffice to say, a lot of them involve stuff like tumbling into Warding.

Fezzix

What happens when Shock starts getting used defensively? If I use an ability that Shocks an opponent, the only cure for it is Time.

Then I proceed to do laps around the Sect arena and laugh at them as they chase and eventually run out of celerity with no cure for it.

Bulrok

Really need to know how long shock lasts and who's going to get it. Without knowing anything one might dream up tactics like shocking your opponent and then running away until they run out of celerity and have to wait for it to wear off. And everyone loves turtle tactics.

Ninja'd by Fezzix gdi. WE THOUGHT THIS IDEA UP TOGETHER FYI

Nisavi

Fezzix said:

What happens when Shock starts getting used defensively? If I use an ability that Shocks an opponent, the only cure for it is Time.

Then I proceed to do laps around the Sect arena and laugh at them as they chase and eventually run out of celerity with no cure for it.

I said the same thing yesterday and in an earlier post. It doesn't really achieve the desired effect.

Alix

Anyone else moving at normal speed again?

Rhine

Looks like it was reverted. My audit is back to normal

Ayastia

Rhine said:

Looks like it was reverted. My audit is back to normal

Any word on the elixir balance?

Oonagh

RIP CELERITY CHANGES.....it was 20 hours of high sodium.



You will be missed, as will the combat implications for which you were placed.

Validan

I can handle the elixir tweaks, its the inability or lack thereof the assortment of stealth tactics and ability to use certain skills due to hidden falling off on movement. Any chance or update on there being a remedy to this? Specifically aimed at using a portion of the offensive and defensive skills of Syssin.

Alix

Any word on the elixir balance?

Elixir changes still in place.

Macavity

Autoposter said:

7/25/2020 at 5:23
Keroc, the Starborn
Everyone
Experimental Changes

With Heatsight being wildly available, many abilities that hide you from view are quickly countered at zero cost. We would like to see them have some usefulness within the realm, so some changes have been made to strike a balance so that they are usable without being frustrating in day-to-day events.

Changes to go alongside this:
- Heatsight is now a single use command that will show the room, letting you see hidden players only for that moment.
- The hiding defence is now stripped when you move, unless you are shadowing someone.
- Shroud no longer hides the player from view in the room, it continues to hide actions and movement however.
- Spiritsight for Deathlore now lets you see those who are currently dead within the realms.
- Shadowsight for Subterfuge now lets you see through illusions 50% of the time.
- Lifevision remains how it is for now, however it has lost the ability to see through illusions.

Penned by my hand on Closday, the 2nd of Khepary, in the year 489 MA.

sorry getting a little late on this, has anyone noticed that heatsight with antiquated goggles, you can still goggle toggle heatsight and get the def line? but using heatsight alone just does the scanning then. Is there a difference with the google heatsight now? and what is it? If not will something just as good be replaced with it as a free toggle?

Nisavi

I'm still of the opinion that all changes should be reverted and the playerbase as a whole should be consulted on whether or not they should stay. Frankly, these are massive changes that impact class balance, system building, the value of artifacts that were put in a promo no more than a month prior, and a ton of other not-as-significant-but-still-substantial changes that were as a result of these.

I get that the administration is likely to dig their feet in here and try to salvage what they can, but this is the most frustration I think I've seen out of any admin decision in ages and that speaks volumes. The reality is that I think there is a perspective difference between the Pools and the playerbase. We have to play with the decisions that are made, and this was made with no forewarning nor was it made by request. I get that there is a desire to test new things or maybe shift things for the better, but this has all been a disaster and a half if the forums are any indication. The fact that both tethers are able to agree on this at all should speak volumes in itself, as they can barely agree on anything.

Iadra

Is there a new setting I can't see to adjust the elx defs?

I can't appear to make firstaid use any defense on the new balance.

Seurimas

Iadra said:

Is there a new setting I can't see to adjust the elx defs?

I can't appear to make firstaid use any defense on the new balance.

Yeah, I'm going to avoid sect/1v1s until this is fixed. If I lose defenses during a fight, I might not even try to put them back up any more (even non-elixirs). I've bugged it, at least.