Templar - Bladefire - Charging Changes

Tetchta

Just from looking at the AB's for Templars, I can't wait to get my hands on the Shadow Mirror of this class, and Battlefury specifically looks like it was explicitly built for things like lessers. DEFEND and ENGAGE come to mind immediately as having a lot of utility in group melees, (fex also have a "guard the squishy" ability), as well as PILGRIMAGE/DELIVERANCE. There's a tremendous amount of utility in group survivability and movement control in that class that I wouldn't want to sleep on if I had it.

Benedicto

Iazamat said:

I'll agree that we've derailed long enough, but I find the implication that this will devolve into tether tribalism - due to what I can only guess is concern over the fact that several of us have resisted a false narrative - not only disingenuous, but it's also insulting. Please don't do that. 

Nothing of the sort. But due to prior experience of these types of thread, the only response that was going to be warranted in response to the above posted comment, was a gradual race to the bottom that would have done nothing for anyone and not been constructive in the slightest. Especially because it's a derailment of the original point of the thread itself.

You said yourself, 'you can only guess' - you've assumed my reasoning and decided to take it as an insult. My actual concern was that in response to the disagreement, the Spirit tether would actually come out and start banding together in response to some of the narrative being posted by those disagreeing. There'd be a lot of not very constructive bickering on a topic that isn't the purpose of this thread, we'd get nowhere fast and it would be closed as a result.

Hence why I said;

Failing that, then we start a new thread to discuss it responsibly (fingers crossed).

Actually making a conscientious effort for us all to be civil and approach the topic with a degree of common sense in. Not to try and shut down a discussion that obviously needs to be had. Why would I suggest that if I was, for some reason, concerned about the opinion of several people in relation to the matter? Why would I be concerned at all over this topic of discussion?

TO GET BACK ON TOPIC:

@Ardent

Bladefire is split into two usages, if you will. Releases and general empowerments. The empowerments themselves retain their use in group because they act in the same manner as any type of venom. You just sub them for a venom you would usually use.

What has suffered are the releases, because these require (for the most part) a threshold of blade charge to be generated from whacking on a target. The amount of charge generated is based on the 'PEN' stat of weapons and so the higher/lower it is, the more/less charge you'll gain per strike.

Now, unfortunately, a lot of the more useful releases require a high threshold of bladecharge. For example, vorpal requires a high charge of 145. Blastwave requires 150. This is of a maximum of 180 and usually takes around 5/6 rounds to generate with the average PEN stat.

There are some lower releases that can be used. Crescent (the reason why the nerf was implemented in the first place) damage is primarily based on the amount of charge accrued. It can be released at any point, but as you can guess, the lower the charge, the less the damage. There is also Lighting release which requires an outdoor room and can be released at 50 blade charge. This gives epilepsy and hits a few seconds after the initial release with relatively minor electric damage.

Due to the numbers that currently turn up to group fights (usually in the region of 10+), targets die within one or two rounds and as soon as a new target is struck, that bladecharge clears. Therefore, it has (for the most part) eradicated the use of bladecharge in the usual engagements.

If group fights went down to being 3v3/4v4 etc, then it's highly likely that we'd see a target potentially reach the levels of bladecharge where crescent can be released at maximum value.

As you say, you aren't necessarily privy to Spirit web or frontline and we do heavily discuss tactics all the time. I think I spend most of my free time trying to think up things to do. I've certainly had a new route recently coded for some of our combatants and I've been teaching others. There are a number of individuals who will verify this, particularly recently.

Benedicto

Tetchta said:

Just from looking at the AB's for Templars, I can't wait to get my hands on the Shadow Mirror of this class, and Battlefury specifically looks like it was explicitly built for things like lessers. DEFEND and ENGAGE come to mind immediately as having a lot of utility in group melees, (fex also have a "guard the squishy" ability), as well as PILGRIMAGE/DELIVERANCE. There's a tremendous amount of utility in group survivability and movement control in that class that I wouldn't want to sleep on if I had it.

It's an incredibly versatile class. The skills you're listing are incredibly useful, though largely mitigated by the half dozen shocked monoliths that get dropped by Mazzion at any point in a group fight. Engage is largely situational and you'll probably find that by the time you've recovered balance back from engaging a target, they're already dead. Plus, it doesn't stop a target from escaping, it gives something like .5 second stun once they've already left the room.

Defend is a great skill and probably does go underutilized. Mostly because a lot of people aren't necessarily willing to put themselves in harms way when there's 10+ people wailing on you. People want them kills. With some finesse, it could probably be used on a toggle to buy the individual some time to heal, but the reality in the current group situation is you'll be dead in one round and be unable to undefend before you're dead. The antiquated artifact version (FULLDEFEND) of this is much better because it reduces the incoming damage by half iirc and gives you a much larger window.

Tetchta

Benedicto said:

Engage is largely situational and you'll probably find that by the time you've recovered balance back from engaging a target, they're already dead. Plus, it doesn't stop a target from escaping, it gives something like .5 second stun once they've already left the room.

Defend is a great skill and probably does go underutilized. Mostly because a lot of people aren't necessarily willing to put themselves in harms way when there's 10+ people wailing on you. People want them kills. With some finesse, it could probably be used on a toggle to buy the individual some time to heal, but the reality in the current group situation is you'll be dead in one round and be unable to undefend before you're dead. The antiquated artifact version (FULLDEFEND) of this is much better because it reduces the incoming damage by half iirc and gives you a much larger window.

Hmmm, that's a bit of a bummer. I think finishing off people on retreat is one of the more challenging, and probably one of the most important, clinchers in those big fights. Your description of defend seems a bit disappointing too, but in my head I'm thinking of three templars holding Defend on one high-priority squishy could probably do a lot. But I don't have the skillset and haven't used it, so I'll bow to your lived experience haha

Benedicto

@Tetchta

Alas, only one person can be defended by one other person at any one time. So if I defended you in a group fight, nobody else could defend you whilst it was active. Again, to build on the finesse idea, you could have people defending in a cycle (how awesome that would be) but by god it would need some very skillful individuals being very quick with their reactions (or skilled with their coding) indeed.

Tetchta

Hmmm. In that case I'm a little sympathetic to the Templar plight re: balance tbh. It kinda seems like they have several things that are *almost* great, and then have a downside that makes it frustrating. It does seem like the class could use some attention and playtesting, tbh.

Benedicto

Tetchta said:

Hmmm. In that case I'm a little sympathetic to the Templar plight re: balance tbh. It kinda seems like they have several things that are *almost* great, and then have a downside that makes it frustrating. It does seem like the class could use some attention and playtesting, tbh.

I think this is probably true of a two or three different classes from both sides of the tether.

Rijetta

Ardent said:

What else in bladefire can realistically be used in a group. That's my question at this point. I'm ignoring the above for reasons of not having been part of it and coming back around.

Is there anything that Templar has to offer in a group besides the insta-gib that can be made useful in group? Should they be looking at the limb stuff? Can that be done in smaller groups or mid sized groups? Can Hemo be used effectively in conjunction with other classes? Is there anything they can do to make up for the loss of the arc-cheese. Don't care if my wording is agreeable, trying to learn something here. I don't play Spirit and I don't know enough about Templar to try and throw out advice, but from watching people like @Rijetta in web go back and forth with @Mjoll over their skills in web to know that if something isn't working right, you should ask questions and I thank both of them for making me see this and realizing I still have plenty to learn about WF. Same thing should be done for Templar right now I think. Ask questions, test things, see what can be adjusted and go from there.

Templar can still use Crescent and Hemorrhage in groups to do massive amounts of damage in a single prompt. They just have to build it - and it'll be useful against tanky pricks like Mazzion, Mjoll, or me, especially in skirmish size lessers. Everybody loses usefulness in these big 20-person ones.

Fezzix

Defend also applies to hypnosis suggests and ranged attacks. I recall plenty of times where I'd try to force an important player in an enemy group to leave the room or get rid of a room effect only to have the suggests hit some random templar instead.

EDIT: I've also seen people use Defend on folks who spam instakills. I've seen people try to hook or interrupt a lumi spamming Judge only to have the templar go prone instead.

Benedicto

Fezzix said:

Defend also applies to hypnosis suggests and ranged attacks. I recall plenty of times where I'd try to force an important player in an enemy group to leave the room or get rid of a room effect only to have the suggests hit some random templar instead.

EDIT: I've also seen people use Defend on folks who spam instakills. I've seen people try to hook or interrupt a lumi spamming Judge only to have the templar go prone instead.

I'm not arguing they are useless, but in the current group meta they don't have the value they previously had. The same is true of most skills. In lower level skirmishes they go back to being very useful skills indeed.

Nisavi

Fezzix said:

EDIT: I've also seen people use Defend on folks who spam instakills. I've seen people try to hook or interrupt a lumi spamming Judge only to have the templar go prone instead.

I think this is the only part that bugs me. Defend shouldn't apply to those channeling an instakill.