Templar - Bladefire - Charging Changes

Czcienn

While I agree that some classes make a bigger difference than others I don't really agree that the answer is to get more people to play those classes, but rather to adjust classes so they can all provide a roughly similar level of impact.

Nisavi

Czcibor said:

While I agree that some classes make a bigger difference than others I don't really agree that the answer is to get more people to play those classes, but rather to adjust classes so they can all provide a roughly similar level of impact.

I will always vote against homogenization. The way that the game is balanced is for groups is the assumption that each tether has at least one representative of each class in their forces. If you don't, it's a disadvantage because more oft than not, you're going to be missing something for groups that they bring to the table.

Across IRE, Beckon is a game changer and it's no different in Aetolia. I understand that some may find Luminary boring, but I guess I was the opposite when I used it. I never got tired of firebombs, being able to (usually) Rebirth and stay alive, being a tanky monster, supplying my group with a ton of Rites, and usually being a game changer. It's partially why I play Sciomancer. Do I do as much damage as I did as a Shaman on Seir? Nope, but I still can change fights by being there with my utility and damage contributions.

Tetchta

Czcibor said:

While I agree that some classes make a bigger difference than others I don't really agree that the answer is to get more people to play those classes, but rather to adjust classes so they can all provide a roughly similar level of impact.

Gonna step in and say a big hard disagree here. Not all classes should provide the same level of impact/have the same tools, because Lessers are inherently about collaboration and cooperation. The meta is always going to shift all over the place, and one of the worst things that could happen would be to whitewash our classes (any more than Mirror classes, which I'm hyped for, already will).

What's going to happen is there will be a new meta discovered from an obscure classlead change or skill, and things will tip another way again.

Rijetta

Personally, I'm fine if no one ever plays Luminary or Templar or Shaman ever again.

Hawa

Rijetta said:

Personally, I'm fine if no one ever plays Luminary or Templar or Shaman ever again.

cosigned

Church

Nisavi said:

Czcibor said:

While I agree that some classes make a bigger difference than others I don't really agree that the answer is to get more people to play those classes, but rather to adjust classes so they can all provide a roughly similar level of impact.

I will always vote against homogenization.

I think there might be a misconception here, making every class be able to do big things to change the flow of a group fight doesn't mean making every class able to do the same things. Some classes do still struggle to find a way to meaningfully contribute above and beyond "hit bad guy with stick," Templar and Carnifex are both in this group, and I believe it may contribute to those class types feeling the sting a bit more when their offensive skills are changed. Blocking directions as a team niche is the definition of boring, not to mention Sentinel and Praenomen both do it so much better in the respective tethers. Classes that don't have shenanigans skills deserve them.

Until then, I guess Neckdrag is free!

Rijetta

Church said:

Nisavi said:

Czcibor said:

While I agree that some classes make a bigger difference than others I don't really agree that the answer is to get more people to play those classes, but rather to adjust classes so they can all provide a roughly similar level of impact.

I will always vote against homogenization.

I think there might be a misconception here, making every class be able to do big things to change the flow of a group fight doesn't mean making every class able to do the same things. Some classes do still struggle to find a way to meaningfully contribute above and beyond "hit bad guy with stick," Templar and Carnifex are both in this group, and I believe it may contribute to those class types feeling the sting a bit more when their offensive skills are changed. Blocking directions as a team niche is the definition of boring, not to mention Sentinel and Praenomen both do it so much better in the respective tethers. Classes that don't have shenanigans skills deserve them.

Until then, I guess Neckdrag is free!

both classes DO have other gimmicks.

carnifex has track which is currently universally reviled and hated, templar has defend which is hilarious and used very effectively

Church

people only hate track because it gets used to break up teams 2 areas distant from lessers

Tetchta

Church said:

people only hate track because it gets used to break up teams 2 areas distant from lessers

Hard counter is regrouping at a closer preliminary location.

Czcienn

Yeah no, I issued to get some clarification about using skills on people who aren't in lesser areas. This is the response I got:

Message #886 Sent By: Tiur Received On: 3/28/2020/19:18
"Sorry it's taken so long, RE 21194. We're discussing changes to the helpfile and a big post. We had hoped common sense could prevail, because I personally hate
aura based systems. Most likely we'll end up banning everything without aura, because it just gets out of hand."

Church

ya'll moderately reactive about this, not sure why you wouldn't just agree with me and try to come up with something cool for Carnifex instead of touting something that is a minor annoyance as your big impactful ability :frowning:

Iazamat

It was ruled shortly after the Proxy War that a group heading to a lesser is fair game to attack outside aura. It was Spirit that caused Shadow to issue about that particular instance and find out (the hard way) that it was, in fact, okay, as our group was intending on fighting. Hound Track is simply an extension of that ruling. I know we've been hit by traps outside of a lesser area while moving toward it. I don't really see what the issue is beyond mere annoyance.

Mjoll

Czcibor said:

Yeah no, I issued to get some clarification about using skills on people who aren't in lesser areas. This is the response I got:

Message #886 Sent By: Tiur Received On: 3/28/2020/19:18
"Sorry it's taken so long, RE 21194. We're discussing changes to the helpfile and a big post. We had hoped common sense could prevail, because I personally hate
aura based systems. Most likely we'll end up banning everything without aura, because it just gets out of hand."

Interesting

Issue #21149 Reported by: REDACTED Re: Mjoll
2020/02/16 23:03:00:
Again using hounds to break up groups on the way to lessers, when they don't have Aura this is against pk rules
--[Reply]--
2020/02/16 23:16:03:
I don't know how to respond to this except to copy/paste my reply from the last issue that REDACTED filed against me for the
same exact reason that was dismissed (issue 21133)?

Issue #21133 Reported by: REDACTED Re: Mjoll
2020/02/10 20:33:44:
using warhound to break up groups before entering foci areas -without aura-
--[Reply]--
2020/02/11 01:04:26:
Yes I did. I have been using it as a group disruption tactic for big group fights for the last two years. The purpose
is to make the enemy team leave behind people who aren't paying attention. This is the only way for this skill to be
used effectively, as if I wait for them to be in the area a standard celerity combined with small fighting zones puts
them in my room instantly with no chance for hound track to hit. The 3.5 seconds of hound balance would mean I can only
use it on one target if their celerity didn't put them in my room instantly, slowing them down with icewalls ensures
that the only effects (stun and prone and 0 damage) will be worn off and cured before their group is ready to move
again.

Message #6431 Sent By: Tiur Received On: 2/17/2020/20:23
"(Mass: REDACTED, Mjoll) RE 21149: Again, we might consider making the hound give aura, but this is not against the rules.
We use roleplaying rulesets for PvP, and it's valid to attack the group that's coming to attack you. Aura is not the be
all of rules, and this isn't even about deaths, it's about annoyances."

Message #6378 Sent By: Tiur Received On: 2/11/2020/20:54
"(Mass: Mjoll, REDACTED) Re 21133: Looks like what we need to do is make this give aura to the user across the distance!"

Oonagh

Tetchta

Czcibor said:

Yeah no, I issued to get some clarification about using skills on people who aren't in lesser areas. This is the response I got:

Message #886 Sent By: Tiur Received On: 3/28/2020/19:18
"Sorry it's taken so long, RE 21194. We're discussing changes to the helpfile and a big post. We had hoped common sense could prevail, because I personally hate
aura based systems. Most likely we'll end up banning everything without aura, because it just gets out of hand."

I'm not sure that message says what you think it does.

Edit: And what I mean by that, even though it's continuing the derail, is that message is pretty waffley and also doesn't say that those skills are being used incorrectly. It's also a bit silly to me to frame it like "If you're moving with your big war party to a battlefield with intent to kill us, we have to assume you're just a random big group of people until you have aura in spite of your obvious intentions, otherwise you don't exist." It'd be like banning having Syssin scouting your party make-up because nobody has aura. Especially since this is, in all honesty, not a hard thing to counter.

Xavin

I mean, I was basically told that abilities that effect people outside of an active open-pk aura zone give anyone hit by them pk cause outside of the active conflict by someone on that side. Incidentally while using an ability that was at the time and is still currently bugged so that the toggle to turn it off doesn't actually turn it off.

Church

somebody's never been skiing

Nisavi

Xavin said:

I mean, I was basically told that abilities that effect people outside of an active open-pk aura zone give anyone hit by them pk cause outside of the active conflict by someone on that side. Incidentally while using an ability that was at the time and is still currently bugged so that the toggle to turn it off doesn't actually turn it off.

I maintain that this was the stance that I was told at the time. This admin ruling on Hound Track is different than I was the one that I was told. That being said, I don't think anything stops the person that Mjoll hit with Hound Track in terms of claiming retribution for it.

Darim

Tetchta said:

Czcibor said:

Yeah no, I issued to get some clarification about using skills on people who aren't in lesser areas. This is the response I got:

Message #886 Sent By: Tiur Received On: 3/28/2020/19:18
"Sorry it's taken so long, RE 21194. We're discussing changes to the helpfile and a big post. We had hoped common sense could prevail, because I personally hate
aura based systems. Most likely we'll end up banning everything without aura, because it just gets out of hand."

I'm not sure that message says what you think it does.

Edit: And what I mean by that, even though it's continuing the derail, is that message is pretty waffley and also doesn't say that those skills are being used incorrectly. It's also a bit silly to me to frame it like "If you're moving with your big war party to a battlefield with intent to kill us, we have to assume you're just a random big group of people until you have aura in spite of your obvious intentions, otherwise you don't exist." It'd be like banning having Syssin scouting your party make-up because nobody has aura. Especially since this is, in all honesty, not a hard thing to counter.

I understand what you're saying 100%, it makes complete and total sense.

The rules, however, say that people aren't open until they have aura. So...whoever Mjoll hits with that will then have a reason to come seek some retribution later. I haven't been around long, but observing the behavior around here tells me that things outside of the scope of a system around here often get pretty nasty pretty fast.

Tetchta

Darim said:

The rules, however, say that people aren't open until they have aura. So...whoever Mjoll hits with that will then have a reason to come seek some retribution later. I haven't been around long, but observing the behavior around here tells me that things outside of the scope of a system around here often get pretty nasty pretty fast.

Which rules?

edit: Sorry, I misread your post. That may be true. You might have difficulty justifying retribution in the long run, though. In either case, acts like that are pretty obviously within the bounds of the current rules, so acting like they aren't seems a bit fishy to me.

Darim

Tetchta said:

Darim said:

The rules, however, say that people aren't open until they have aura. So...whoever Mjoll hits with that will then have a reason to come seek some retribution later. I haven't been around long, but observing the behavior around here tells me that things outside of the scope of a system around here often get pretty nasty pretty fast.

Which rules?

The one that says anyone without aura isn't open pk?

Iazamat

Iazamat said:

It was ruled shortly after the Proxy War that a group heading to a lesser is fair game to attack outside aura. It was Spirit that caused Shadow to issue about that particular instance and find out (the hard way) that it was, in fact, okay, as our group was intending on fighting. Hound Track is simply an extension of that ruling. I know we've been hit by traps outside of a lesser area while moving toward it. I don't really see what the issue is beyond mere annoyance.

@Darim

Edit: Furthermore, I'm not really sure why people are talking about claiming PK cause against a skill used against you on your way to a fight that doesn't even cause damage (or extremely minimal, I can't recall).

Xavin

Hey, I was getting threatened or warned re. PK cause over a skill that deals no damage and can only move you if you happen to be lacking the mass defense. It's a thing people do.

Tetchta

Y'all just lay more traps like dang.

Mjoll

@Darim
From Tiur

We use roleplaying rulesets for PvP, and it's valid to attack the group that's coming to attack you.

Ehtias

I've been killed outside of a lesser before getting aura while traveling to it before.

Toz

Benedicto

I mean, rather than derailing and causing this thread to devolve into tether tribalism when we were actually having a bipartisan discussion about Templar skills, why don't we ask for clarification from @Razmael, @Keroc or @Tiur.

Failing that, then we start a new thread to discuss it responsibly (fingers crossed).

Iazamat

I'll agree that we've derailed long enough, but I find the implication that this will devolve into tether tribalism - due to what I can only guess is concern over the fact that several of us have resisted a false narrative - not only disingenuous, but it's also insulting. Please don't do that. 

Ardent

What else in bladefire can realistically be used in a group. That's my question at this point. I'm ignoring the above for reasons of not having been part of it and coming back around.

Is there anything that Templar has to offer in a group besides the insta-gib that can be made useful in group? Should they be looking at the limb stuff? Can that be done in smaller groups or mid sized groups? Can Hemo be used effectively in conjunction with other classes? Is there anything they can do to make up for the loss of the arc-cheese. Don't care if my wording is agreeable, trying to learn something here. I don't play Spirit and I don't know enough about Templar to try and throw out advice, but from watching people like @Rijetta in web go back and forth with @Mjoll over their skills in web to know that if something isn't working right, you should ask questions and I thank both of them for making me see this and realizing I still have plenty to learn about WF. Same thing should be done for Templar right now I think. Ask questions, test things, see what can be adjusted and go from there.