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Templar - Bladefire - Charging Changes
Aeryx
Docking Nipsy's pay
Alright, then. So the changes to blade charging were implemented, and it seems obvious to me, from my perspective as someone who plays Templar on a regular basis, that perhaps the changes weren't exactly well thought out. Lets go over some numbers and some facts.
I tested on @Jourik using Crescent in Bladefire. @Jourik had 15% magic audit. Crescent does magic damage.
Each Doubleswing with my large blade gives 48 blade charge. Below are the various points of blade charge and how much damage magic damage Crescent does on a target with 15% magic audit.
1st sample hit - 48 blade charge = 0 damage(It wont let you use it at 48 blade charge)
2nd sample hit - 72 blade charge = 348 damage(Some blade charge wore off before I typed in crescent)
3rd sample hit - 91 blade charge = 449 damage
4th sample hit - 134 blade charge = 1196 damage
5th sample hit - 124 blade charge = 563 damage(Some blade charge wore off before I typed crescent in again)
So as you can see, the sweet spot to do 'good damage in a group setting' is 130 or more blade charge, by my estimation. That means you have to hit your target 3 times, and then use Crescent on your FOURTH HIT to do 'good damage in a group setting'.
Fact: I am never hitting someone 4 times in a group setting
Fact: This is on someone with 15% audit, when I personally as an average endgame joe have 51% from various buffs
Fact: I have heard things are supposed to be balanced around single combat
Fact: This change was implemented because people were complaining about blade charge in a group setting
Fact: This makes the Overdriving talent in Battlefury's Mastery skill absolutely useless as you can't use Blade charge in PVE, and nobody uses large blades in 1v1 combat because they aren't viable. One would then imagine that Overdriving is meant to be able to reach higher charges to use more impactful releases(you can't do this now)
I get that some people get angry when you delete them with damage at a lesser, but does anyone really believe that this is the right solution? Just completely removing the ability to use blade releases in a group setting either at all or with any reasonable efficacy? This is in addition to the fact that Keroc has said that the class should have more skills anyways. Is that the solution? Does the class need a slight redesign? Or are we going to continue to submit classleads and implement them based on group pvp complaints when we were supposed to be balancing around single combat in the past?
Honestly, at this point, I think some skills need to be thought up and added to Templar if this is the route that we're going to take. It is in no way reasonable to completely make an entire giant percentage of a skillset that is ALREADY SMALL unusable in a facet of the game that is daily and constant(lessers and majors). By unusuable, I mean literally, unusuable. I can't use blade release the first hit, and I can't use it the second hit(when you have 48), so you are minimum looking at using Crescent on a third hit for 449 magic damage on 15% audit. The balance on my weapon is 3.18 currently. That's 9.54 seconds before I can do a single, low damage Crescent on someone. This literally makes no sense. And with the changes that timer is the same for every target now. So please, convince me as to why this change is correct, or okay. Or at least someone assure me that we're okay with the idea of adding additional utility or something different to the Templar skillsets.
I tested on @Jourik using Crescent in Bladefire. @Jourik had 15% magic audit. Crescent does magic damage.
Each Doubleswing with my large blade gives 48 blade charge. Below are the various points of blade charge and how much damage magic damage Crescent does on a target with 15% magic audit.
1st sample hit - 48 blade charge = 0 damage(It wont let you use it at 48 blade charge)
2nd sample hit - 72 blade charge = 348 damage(Some blade charge wore off before I typed in crescent)
3rd sample hit - 91 blade charge = 449 damage
4th sample hit - 134 blade charge = 1196 damage
5th sample hit - 124 blade charge = 563 damage(Some blade charge wore off before I typed crescent in again)
So as you can see, the sweet spot to do 'good damage in a group setting' is 130 or more blade charge, by my estimation. That means you have to hit your target 3 times, and then use Crescent on your FOURTH HIT to do 'good damage in a group setting'.
Fact: I am never hitting someone 4 times in a group setting
Fact: This is on someone with 15% audit, when I personally as an average endgame joe have 51% from various buffs
Fact: I have heard things are supposed to be balanced around single combat
Fact: This change was implemented because people were complaining about blade charge in a group setting
Fact: This makes the Overdriving talent in Battlefury's Mastery skill absolutely useless as you can't use Blade charge in PVE, and nobody uses large blades in 1v1 combat because they aren't viable. One would then imagine that Overdriving is meant to be able to reach higher charges to use more impactful releases(you can't do this now)
I get that some people get angry when you delete them with damage at a lesser, but does anyone really believe that this is the right solution? Just completely removing the ability to use blade releases in a group setting either at all or with any reasonable efficacy? This is in addition to the fact that Keroc has said that the class should have more skills anyways. Is that the solution? Does the class need a slight redesign? Or are we going to continue to submit classleads and implement them based on group pvp complaints when we were supposed to be balancing around single combat in the past?
Honestly, at this point, I think some skills need to be thought up and added to Templar if this is the route that we're going to take. It is in no way reasonable to completely make an entire giant percentage of a skillset that is ALREADY SMALL unusable in a facet of the game that is daily and constant(lessers and majors). By unusuable, I mean literally, unusuable. I can't use blade release the first hit, and I can't use it the second hit(when you have 48), so you are minimum looking at using Crescent on a third hit for 449 magic damage on 15% audit. The balance on my weapon is 3.18 currently. That's 9.54 seconds before I can do a single, low damage Crescent on someone. This literally makes no sense. And with the changes that timer is the same for every target now. So please, convince me as to why this change is correct, or okay. Or at least someone assure me that we're okay with the idea of adding additional utility or something different to the Templar skillsets.
Childhood's over the moment you know you're gonna die.
0
Comments
The intent of this change is to provide the smoothest transition to a fair model. Keroc did admit that Bladefire might need some fluffing, which is something he can do over the course of a few classlead rounds if he so chooses. It is up to us to come up with changes and provide data via playing the class instead of just abandoning it (hello, Shaman!)
It was likely intended that crescent's full dmg isn't necessarily achievable in most team sizes today. The skillset was never really designed with pre-charge in mind. The numbers are probably made with the intent of a prolonged fight to build resources.
Imo, this was the right change.
2020/04/27 03:21:55
The general impression here seems to be that most people like the idea but the mechanics are a bit
on the strong side. I'll keep it in mind some of the suggestions here as I work through report 2778,
so consider this report somewhat tied to that one.
Were any options considered, or variations thereof?
edit: I don't really care about the change itself, most people die in 3 rounds anyways considering the 10+ v 10+ we see the past few months. Just curious what happened while going through the reports!
But if Keroc is going to make more changes, or do some sort of revamping of Bladefire or swapping it out for something else entirely, that's great. It makes sense in that case. But 'changing blade charging to something more reasonable' is way different than the 'make it entirely unusable at lessers' that it ended up being.
Guess maybe I should start on my first draft of that Warhounds Track report that should have been made this time too. Maybe I'll get Jourik to submit it as well.
I wasn't at that one specific lesser, I have however been hit by two Templar that both had precharged blades at the same time before and that was not that fun(Not going to lie group combats largely just damage so it's a big whatever). I figured this would have a larger amount of changes than what has been listed today, seems that it will according to Keroc and I had assumed it would be quite a bit of work.
I figured this was the easiest thing to put a classlead in for that would not make an impact on the 1v1 ability of either class (I did classlead both monk and templar with the same classlead so it was not targeted at just one player since I also play monk thus trying to nerf myself) while toning down something that I felt was outright silly in a group setting, never mind that I think hitting your allies to empower yourself is kinda weird from a RP standpoint in quite a few ways.
Also based on what you said you think I submitted someone elses report, I did not I made all of my reports entirely on my own. I asked for input from a few people ex @Hawa was one I believe. Anyways, it is what it is. I'm glad that further adjustments will be made.
I think what I'm trying to get at is that this change means you still build momentum in a 1v1 but in a team fight you're at the same level as everyone else,/ You have to afflict each target in some way and build momentum like every other class that I can think of. A person has the ability to tank or get out rather than be punished because someone has managed to slice a few hits on someone else.
@Aeryx I'm certain there are ways you can work with other people you join group fights with to better utilize your abilities in conjunction with them.
I won't get into heavy comparisons with other classes unless I'm asked, but I know that when I started looking deeper into Carnifex and discovering uses for heretofore underutilized abilities, I found my efficiency in both duels and group combat soar.
Honestly, I am a staunch believer that Templar is not a crippled class by any stretch of the word. I think it's a powerful and flexible Swiss army knife and I can't wait to get my grubby mitts on it. Please don't lose hope over a classlead like this - I almost made that mistake with carnifex more than once but now I couldn't be happier with my progress. Keep going.
In general I think Templar's very much a jack of all trades type class, doesn't do anything particularly outstanding on its own but it supplements any group comp.
Add the weapon cutting damage into it, i.e. the entire hit. Now try using something like Zeal. See if the "new target" thing applies to Tempest.
Crescent is supposed to be supplemental, not an instant explosion for more than half the target's health. The nerf was reasonable and necessary.
If we've got this as a bit of a thread on Templar combat, I'm interested in the most recent change of sacrifice from unblockable to spirit damage. It's a relatively minor nerf, especially as sacrifice really doesn't see much use these days. I'm more curious as to the thought process behind the change than anything.
Edit: As for being targeted first, we have a number of players on Shadow, particularly mages and lycans, who end up consistently being first target, dying, and not really reaping any reward from it other than what their lesser points can get them. They soldier on. You could learn something from that.
Edit: Or don't, that's entirely up to you. No one is going to force you to participate.
2.) In regards to being targeted first, yeah, I am targeted first. A lot. Regardless of it making tactical sense or not. I have admittedly used this to our advantage sometimes, but when these group fights lately are so large, that I can't react or use Aegis or anything, it makes me wonder how is that any different to me deleting Bulrok with one combo? Because it took 4-5 more people of the 22 on one side to kill me instead of 1 killing 1 with something that you can't even spam?
So yeah, I will take a break from lessers. Until Keroc fixes the skillset back to where it's actually usuable in group combat again.
Also, yeah. As a Mage, I'm a priority target. I make it work.
There is always Zealot to lean back on, what with Resurgence, a great audit, good synergy with some of Templar's team options and decent damage by itself. I found myself fairly tanky as a Zealot in team combat. If one find themselves being targeted a lot, you could also consider Luminary as a class to explore one of these days. It is durable enough to resist that kind of onslaught for a good amount of time and has lightform and rebirth.
To be a bit more constructive, there is a lot that we can do to improve our tactics in group conflicts. As a Templar, you have a lot of skills at your disposal to help counter being priority target that will make you very annoying to deal with. The key is learning how to time your entrance and exits correctly to maximize survival and kill contribution. For instance, you can stagger into the fight with CHARGE (prone+stun) or LUNGE(impale or prone). Both options are good for supporting the team and setting yourself up for kills. Shadow will likely be off balance from engaging someone else on the team because they're not going to sit and wait for one person usually. If you get a feeling or confirmation that the enemy team's focus has been switched back to you, raise the loneliness affliction to top priority under paralysis and get out immediately anyway you can. By leaving the room and the enemy team adjusting auto-targgeting, the enemy ends up running the risk of their team falling out of sync with who they're attacking at any given time. Rinse/repeat until you can sit in room reasonably to do your thing with the team. If the enemy team manages to lock you down, hopefully our allies are doing their job and bringing someone down with the disruption you've brought to the fight.
The key is to practice and not give up. You have to remember: the most you lose is a little bit of time and resources at these group skirmishes. Maybe some XP at some of the events but it's so minimal, especially when you consider the gain, it's really laughable.
@Nisavi More Luminaries can be nice but Spirit's biggest hurdle right now falls under two categories: 1) Mindset and the self-defeating attitude of some of its members. 2) Overcoming Shadow's effective group-split tactics. I would love it if we saw more active Shaman and Ascendril participate but we take what we can get.
Edit: I should clarify and say that we're not falling apart at the seams by any means. Only that we can, myself included, do better.
Both are good classes in their own different ways, but people always seem to fail to understand that a class being OP/very strong isn't a reason for a lot of people to play a class. There'd probably be even more archivists, syssin and monks if that was the case. It's a pretty common argument in a lot of games. People also try the reverse argument of, "If (x) class is so OP why aren't more people playing it?!" and it's equally as annoying (god that one was always a hot topic in BDO).
I understand your frustration. What you'll probably find now is, as a result of not being able to pre-charge for crescent is that you won't be as high a priority target anymore. You'll note that most of the other Templar tend to fall into the middle portion of the fight.
If you're also concerned about being targeted first then you have to adapt to the strategy, not give up. There are a number of things you can do to avoid being hit first or increase your survivability.
Due to the average numbers at team fights and my usual position within the target order, I've had to completely rethink how I approach group fights.
But as a number of people have said above, you're not going to be forced to fight or berated for not going. I hope that when your initial anger at the nerf subsides you'll see there are still plenty of options for you and I'd hate to lose a capable group combatant. If you want to talk through what those options are, I'm happy to help.
Can't even use the argument that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, which I have seen before in different games. Just because no one plays the class is not a reason to shoehorn someone into it and tell them that's what is needed.
As far as I know Syssin has a massively narrow kill window and even at the top level of play, if you miss it by a single round you can end up dead, or have to reset a few minutes of effort. Think Archi is mostly misunderstood or not easy to just plug and go with code. I've seen some people figure it out (@Mazzion for example has a terrifying Archi setup) but that doesn't mean you can just go. Monk, not commenting on. I know next to nothing about the class and don't care too just yet. Lumi seems like it's got some issues of being a Lifer Prae basically. Bashing is so-so, or heavily arti-dependent. Hybrid balance offense with awesome synergy with god, I don't know, basically ever class it feels like when I get railroaded by one. All I know really about shaman is you can yank people, basically destroy any zone control by a Teradrim and lighting unicornsing hurts. Like, holy flipping ow man.
I rock Wayfarer. It's absolutely a pain in the ass to get right. It is however marvelous in group and solo because I can setup basically any other class on, I'm going to assume either tether. Mountaineer shouts are delicious. (Y'all gonna make me buy enemy list expand) But I'm a glass cannon. Sure, I can pop rage and endure but I've seen a few have picked up how to get around that. (Sorry, not going into detail.) It's because I enjoy the class.
If you enjoy Templar, find a way to make it work. Don't fall back on stopping because a 3k insta-gib offensive ability got a thumping. I've looked through the skills, and yeah, most of them look like they aren't group centric but as Haven pointed out, there are things to do. It's gonna suck when you have to duck in and out (Yo, Highjump to sit off out of the area or tumble to try and survive) but giving up on the class because the one thing you used the most got knocked down a peg or twelve isn't the way to go about it. Get creative, figure out what you can do with a group. Isn't there something you can do with Hemorrhage that would work in a group? Capitalize on the bleed/poison damage?
I mean, I just realized I rambled a lot.
tl:dr
See what you -can- do instead of focusing on what you -can't- do anymore. Look for new options and show off what you're capable off with a class that just took a hit.
FWIW I wasn't suggesting that you can just pick up a class and win with it. I know full well how difficult Syssin is to fight high-tier people with, but I also know just how incredible it is when you do crack it. It's a very powerful class in the right hands, just like Serpent/SabRen in Achaea/Imperian. My entire post can be summed up in your first comment: A class being super strong does not mean people are gonna play it.
I'm certainly not going to just because people bitch that we don't have (x) class. Give me ~1k credits to pick it up, then sure I'll play it when needed. Also I wouldn't compare Lumi to Prae (for bashing). Even artied it's abysmal compared to anything else lol. Tanky, but trashtier.