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Recent Concerns Regarding Bamathis
Tiur
Producer
Thank you to everyone who has voiced your opinion to me on the matter of Bamathis. We did not want to rush to a decision and have discussed the matter a great deal in the Pools, including opinions on both sides of the argument.
To those who are unaware of the situation, it has been recently brought to our attention that some aspects of Bamathis have made players uncomfortable due to fascist imagery and themes. First off, most importantly, please rest assured that nobody in the Pools, past or present, condones or supports these themes. No one involved in creating, writing, or playing of Bamathis has had any intention of making any connection like this.
The armbands of the Order were designed to be worn around the wrist, with no intended connotations or reference to Nazi armbands. We do realize that the naming convention can evoke such imagery, however, and have consequently changed the name of the item to be more clear and remove the ambiguity.
The Legionnaire's Salute has been noted as a concern. To clarify, the motion of the salute does not in any way take inspiration from or resemble the Nazi salute. The salute starts with a straight arm at the side of the body and brings the fingers to hit the opposite shoulder. It's fairly similar to other salutes found in the game, such as the Sentinels' heartbeat taps or Iosyne's salute. If the salute is unclear in its intent or imagery, please let us know what parts are causing confusion. For illustration's sake, it's fairly similar to the salute found in a popular anime:
For concerns about the story position that Bamathis occupies, we do welcome (and encourage!) dissension and narrative beats off the established track. However, please be aware that there is also an overarching narrative and progression for Aetolia that have been established through years of storyboarding and development, much of which is not yet visible to players. While we will do our best to accommodate different approaches/reactions to the story, there is also a path and end game that are established. That said, we will make it explicitly clear if there are wide-ranging repercussions to IC decisions.
The largest point of contention and discussion revolves around the name of Bamathis' Order, the Argent Legion. It has been brought up that this draws some parallels to a defunct fascist group in America's history, the Silver Legion. For context, Bamathis' Order name is based upon Aetolian lore, where silver is Varian's colour and the Argent Legion essentially serves as Varian's army. The naming convention also plays upon fantasy military tropes.
We discussed this at length, including considering your input throughout your emails and other media, and heard a lot of great points and arguments on both sides from players and Pools alike. We acknowledge and understand that the name is a source of discomfort and that it would be a relatively simple fix to modify the name. On the other hand, the name is rooted in Aetolian lore (wholly unrelated to fascism), has been firmly established within Aetolia, and holds no direct connection to the fascist group in question. As such, we are keeping the name as-is in homage to Aetolia's established lore and history. Again, let me stress that this is by no means condoning any fascist themes and any attempts to use this, or any other aspect of the game, as a springboard for pushing those themes and/or bullying will be harshly punished.
Going forward, we will be sure to closely monitor for unintended connections and parallels to real life organizations and themes. Thank you for all your input and discussion around this topic.
To those who are unaware of the situation, it has been recently brought to our attention that some aspects of Bamathis have made players uncomfortable due to fascist imagery and themes. First off, most importantly, please rest assured that nobody in the Pools, past or present, condones or supports these themes. No one involved in creating, writing, or playing of Bamathis has had any intention of making any connection like this.
The armbands of the Order were designed to be worn around the wrist, with no intended connotations or reference to Nazi armbands. We do realize that the naming convention can evoke such imagery, however, and have consequently changed the name of the item to be more clear and remove the ambiguity.
The Legionnaire's Salute has been noted as a concern. To clarify, the motion of the salute does not in any way take inspiration from or resemble the Nazi salute. The salute starts with a straight arm at the side of the body and brings the fingers to hit the opposite shoulder. It's fairly similar to other salutes found in the game, such as the Sentinels' heartbeat taps or Iosyne's salute. If the salute is unclear in its intent or imagery, please let us know what parts are causing confusion. For illustration's sake, it's fairly similar to the salute found in a popular anime:
For concerns about the story position that Bamathis occupies, we do welcome (and encourage!) dissension and narrative beats off the established track. However, please be aware that there is also an overarching narrative and progression for Aetolia that have been established through years of storyboarding and development, much of which is not yet visible to players. While we will do our best to accommodate different approaches/reactions to the story, there is also a path and end game that are established. That said, we will make it explicitly clear if there are wide-ranging repercussions to IC decisions.
The largest point of contention and discussion revolves around the name of Bamathis' Order, the Argent Legion. It has been brought up that this draws some parallels to a defunct fascist group in America's history, the Silver Legion. For context, Bamathis' Order name is based upon Aetolian lore, where silver is Varian's colour and the Argent Legion essentially serves as Varian's army. The naming convention also plays upon fantasy military tropes.
We discussed this at length, including considering your input throughout your emails and other media, and heard a lot of great points and arguments on both sides from players and Pools alike. We acknowledge and understand that the name is a source of discomfort and that it would be a relatively simple fix to modify the name. On the other hand, the name is rooted in Aetolian lore (wholly unrelated to fascism), has been firmly established within Aetolia, and holds no direct connection to the fascist group in question. As such, we are keeping the name as-is in homage to Aetolia's established lore and history. Again, let me stress that this is by no means condoning any fascist themes and any attempts to use this, or any other aspect of the game, as a springboard for pushing those themes and/or bullying will be harshly punished.
Going forward, we will be sure to closely monitor for unintended connections and parallels to real life organizations and themes. Thank you for all your input and discussion around this topic.
8
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
The whole 'For Sapience' thing has a very ultranationalist propaganda vibe. Okay, on it's own, not a problem.
Then there's the aspect where going after non-Sapience pantheon worship that's considered to be threats happens to potentially paint targets on settlements and races that are somewhat analogues of real life non-White cultures. The Atav in Skythrone? Look at their food, and it's very mesoAmerican. Saluria? South American, Mayan, Incan, Aztec vibes. The Mitrine? Ethiopian. Indyuk? Inuit/Eskimo. And of course, the Mhun, which have parallels to Jews. Again, by itself, probably not a problem even with the ethnic cleansing vibe.
Then there's the genocide aspect. For people who worship Albedi gods, it's convert or die, and players who don't want in on killing people are forced into conversion, which itself is...an avenue RIFE with unfortunate implications because it's still a form of genocide via erasure of religion. Players are not given another option. Feels very Crusades or Spanish Inquisitio, but again, on it's own, not too problematic.
Now roll all of that together. Consider the themes, consider where it feels like things are going. A lot of us can't see the full picture or know the full story of what's going on, but what we DO see looks...really, really bad. And knowing people can't see the full picture or don't know the full scope of what's going on, that outward image is kind of important, and while those individual parts I mentioned, and what was highlighted in the main post, are not problematic on their own or even with a couple of them. But it's the entire damn package.
Yes, this is a fantasy game. Yes, it's a fantasy game with dark themes. Yes, we're all just players playing characters just RPing a role. But it doesn't take much to see where things could go, and the whole point of pointing these problematic things out is to ensure that they're treated with some measure of sensitivity and maturity. And there has to be some mindfulness in how much is allowed 'because it's RP'.
EDIT: I find it somewhat telling that I request some sensitivity and maturity be considered in viewing the package as a whole, and there's a bunch of dislikes already.
Putting aside the imagery, let me state what my biggest concern is with Bamathis:
He's trying to be a neutral God in a game that does not mechanically or thematically support a neutral God. I understand that you like shades of gray, and I do too, but a God that has been appointed by Daddy V to be in charge and all the other Gods have to fall in line undermines a central point in Aetolia's conflict that has driven it for years now. It makes very little sense that Haern, who has ripped His brothers in half for opposing Him and threatening His charge, becomes meek, docile, and okay with Bamathis worship in Duiran when Bamathis has outright aligned Himself with brothers and sisters that Haern has a long-standing history of animosity and enmity with. If the goal is for Bamathis to be in charge for a little bit only to have an event where Bamathis' actions put him at odds with Enorian and Duiran, that should've happened awhile ago.
Moving further, if we take Duiran and how Bamathis has progressively managed to get some "fingers" into the organization, his affiliation alone should've been enough for Duiran to say, "Thanks, but no thanks" given a decade of established lore and history. Duiran and the Sentinels both have a history of being burned whenever a Shadow-affiliated God comes asking to "work together" or "align in a common purpose". Hell, that's very close to how the Sentinels were founded in the first place in terms of lore. Sibatti has said in other mediums that me saying "out of character" for how I view some of these actions is the wrong word and suggested "anti-character" as an alternative. I think that is my point. A lot of this cozying up to Shadow orders or trying to legalize some of them in Duiran comes across as "anti-character". It just doesn't make sense for a Sentinel to stand shoulder to shoulder in an Order full of individuals that run anathema to the Oath that they've pledged. Here's this God that has talked about how he'll bring both Enorian and Duiran "to heel" if they don't abandon their prejudices and "fall in line". He's trying to be both neutral, yet affiliated with the Shadow tether.
Also, if we get down to the core of the matter, "Albedi Gods bad" is not sufficient reason for Duiran to suddenly go frothing at the mouth and turn zealot along the same lines as the Argent Legion. It is not the first time that Duiran has seen calamitous events unfold when the Albedi Gods have broken free. Duiran has endured the War of Night, the arrival of Heva, Odravh breaking free, and more. But now we suddenly have to be as rabidly anti-Albedi as the Legion. Do note that I'm not saying this because my character worships Albedi Gods. He doesn't and he's solidly Omeiian in affiliation. However, it just doesn't make sense that we'd be as gung ho on purging Albedi influence as the Argent Legion is. I've heard some characters justify it as, "He's charged with defending Sapience!" Technically, all of Varian's children have that charge -- but they also have their own motives and means of how they go about that. Bamathis has his own, as does Haern, Chakrasul, Omei, and others.
In short, my issues stem from the fact that it's a contradiction with years of established lore that will likely result in a rift within Spirit when the hand is finally forced and Spirit folks in Bamathis' Order have to make a choice, thus repeating yet another event trope in Aetolia where Spirit is forced into a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. Additionally, it's just really "anti-character" for these Spirit organizations to so willingly accept the word of Bamathis when they've been historically burned by Shadow-affiliated Gods. Literally replace him with historical Gods like Chakrasul or Severn and Duiran would've had a completely different reaction if they had come to ask Duiran for "cooperation".
Edit: By the way, none of the above criticism is directed towards the players behind the Gods themselves. I don't expect players to keep everything in mind at all times and Gods are entitled to have lapses in judgment. They're not infallible. I think Bamathis' player has done a fantastic job at making a very compelling character and those in his Order appear to love it. I'm just being critical of what seem like a number of small discrepancies that have culminated in a large issue that contradicts established lore.
For me (and this is just my opinion), I think the primary issue lay in the fact that Bamathis was installed as a normal Divine with an Order. If the role of Bamathis was designed to be the focal point for these wider events involving Albedi Gods/threats to sapience, then to truly stay 'neutral' across the tethers, he should have remained a Divine that remained aloof from the usual concerns of the Aetolian pantheon. Varian set him to be 'above' the other Divine and that extra authority could have explained why he didn't function in the same way. That way, we could have had a setup similar to the Ashtan Resistance, where individuals could volunteer to be part of the force/org that defends Sapience and it is only in those instances where we need to be alerted and that channel is used. In this scenario, Bamathis only really appears or gets involved when it's matters relating to these wider events, rather than having much more intimate involvements with the various orgs of Sapience. It also saves on the appearance of favoritism. During the Chaos Lords event, it was only the Argent Legion who had access to the means to kill the Chaos Heralds, which at the time, was only made up of the Shadow tether.
Instead, we have our current Bamathis. A Divine that has clearly and frequently expressed favoritism for the Shadow tethered militaristic orgs such as the Carnifex and Syssin, and who has also expressed (on numerous occasions) disdain for the morals that Enorian follows as 'the good guys'. Now I know that in this game 'good' can be subjective, but by and large, we're expected to be moralistic.
I know it's not the fault of the individual behind the character as I'm certain that they're just following instructions on how the character is supposed to be played - brutal, unforgiving and entitled. However, for myself, it has certainly rubbed me up the wrong way as one of the 'good guys'. It makes me feel like a second-class citizen when we turn up to these events and our RP dictates that we have to maintain some sort of stance instead of brutally slaughtering an entire race of people without a care in the world. The same disdain that Bamathis shows to Enorian is echoed, to a much lesser extent, by the others who follow him.
For the sake of my RP, Benedicto is frequently treated in a 'not very nice way' by Bamathis because of his principals and his stance. I don't mind this because this is what one expects from a Shadow/Not Very Nice Divine. But it does feel bad when you've then got to turn out for these sapience threatening events or else potentially run the risk of being Indorani'd.
Also there is the big Duamvi question. A non-Aetolian originating species that has moved into Enorian and even occupies some of the people of sapience as hosts. When's that going to potentially become a huge issue?
I left the Discord because of how aggressive and condemning it is all of the time. Some times it is in jest for some but mostly it is people who hurt making others hurt so every one is in pain. You bully each other. I find it painful how you speak to and about each other. A place where new people and new faces come to learn about this community and all they see is you trying to hurt those you disagree with and make them to be bad people behind the screen.
I struggle with this topic a lot and I sent a very long email to Tiur about it and I feel I will be punished by the mean attitude of the community for what I say here.
I am German. My family is German. We are from Germany. I have ancestors that were annihilated in the Holocaust. I have ancestors that capitulated to preserve their lives and their children. I am a gay man who had to marry his husband away from older family I hold dear because it was not legal in my country at the time.
The Third Reich is a very complicated and long corruption that lead to horrible things. In my country we study it harshly so that we can fight this corruption and never let this happen again. It is not an easy monster, and to ignore the humanity that allowed it to fester makes you vulnerable to that infection.
These themes are every where.
They are present in the tutorial where you join the game in slavery. There are comfort women and cannibalism. There are so many wars I have seen in help files I can not follow them. They are present every time you ignore story to go hunt and kill sentient things or when you decide it is okay to kill them for some reason. They are present where one side wishes to dominate the other. And they are present when the players justify their aggressions to each other behind the screen and feed the Us vs Them mentality that corrodes sense of unity and stewardship.
I do not support Fascism. It is the great shame of my nation and a burden every generation carries however far we live into our future. It is a burden by our blood and by memory of the world and we can not live free of it.
I also do not believe in giving it strength and allow it to keep you from telling stories and making what used to be common elements off limits. I do not think the Bamathis order needs to change but may be expand on some diversity. This is a shared space and we must learn to share it. We must face discomforts in our selves and in Our Characters that are not Our Selves.
I see many difficult story questions in this situation but I do not think that is bad. They are opportunities for characters and communities to develop and many shades of gray I hope that can be explored without designing to hurt the people in that exploration. I also see good concerns that I hope the Adminisration will consider when we must rally around a thing that automatically imbalances half of the community organizations. If we are to rally behind Bamathis with our Gods it is important to have representation so not only one Tether is in the lead. This is what I saw in the movements of Duiran who is in a position to make compromises Enorian can not but can benefit from.
Please try to be good to each other. Be kind and be good hosts even when it is hard. Especially when it is hard.
You literally use them like objects.
Further, the themes of "destroy unbelievers" are throughout the game.
Ivoln - Destroy/convert the living/cycle
Teradrim - Destroy/convert the living/cycle
Bamathis - Destroy/convert the albedi
Dhar - Destroy/convert the undead/vampires
Ethne - Destroy/convert the undead/vampires
Illuminae - Destroy/convert the undead/vampires
Slyphe - Destroy/convert the undead/vampires
Shaman - Destroy/convert the undead/vampires
Haern - Destroy/convert the undead/vampires
Damareal- Destroy/convert the undead/vampires
(there may be a pattern here but I'm not sure what it is)
This is a very strange line in the sand in my opinion. Your character is a mass murder but you're uncomfortable because Bamathis advocates in theory what you put into practice. Okay I suppose, but I don't really understand the logic behind it unless someone genuinely thinks that a player or admin is advocating these practices in the real world and I don't see that argument being put forth.
As someone who wasn't around during Bamathis' rise to power, it does seem odd that he's set up to be a leader of the other gods, with an extremely broad and flexible goal, and yet is clearly aligned with Shadow. I'm sharing a bit of my in-character conspiracy theory, but that looked to Escelika, an Orc Shaman in Duiran, like someone using word of the command(Law) and not the spirit of it to obtain a different goal. Sort of like how AIs always conclude that the best way to protect humanity is to just wipe it out.
I can't bring this up in-game because that level of complexity usually gets ruled out due to relying on strong admin influence to validate lore. This is something players need for the framework of their personal roleplay/organization stories to function properly.
We wouldn't have players being so OOC motivated to consider allowing Bamathis worship in Spirit if we had more than 1.5 active Spirit gods at a time.
This really deserves repeating as I have witnessed several divine volunteers across both Achaea and Aetolia bearing the brunt of criticisms. I see these issues/dissent bubbling over time, sometimes weeks up to months, and eventually explodes to a point where it is no longer enjoyable for the volunteer to progress the story.
It is also my understanding that volunteers put a lot of time and effort studying up on their selected divine and storyboarding for events. It's easy to become attached and it's easy to feel that you've somehow failed in actualizing your plans. So I wanted to put in my third party two cents that Bamathis' volunteer did a phenomenal job building up not only his role but the people around him (even people not in his order). Having played IREs for many years, I'd put Bamathis' volunteer quality up there with current Sartan (Achaea) and 2016's+ Aurora (Achaea). I would hope that these valid themes (as dark and painful as they are) would not sully the work the volunteer accomplished. Definetly amazing work.
I think going forward it is important for IRE to be more transparent and quicker in addressing complaints. This thread honestly makes me feel better, but I think it was done too late.
(Illuminai): Saltz says, "Moxie is just doing the Moxie thing to do, often misinterpreted."
(Tells): Sir Iames Gallant, the Executioner tells you, "The one Illuminai beyond prayer, I swear."
Valingar: "How could a daughter of me, the most noble man in the south, be so heartless?"
(Tells): Haven Locke, Illuminai Khimaira tells you, "Be that as it may, I've also seen the strength in you. You can take care of yourself."
The general feel of the roleplay was organic, harsh, and laden with a lot of feeling and I think if people reached out with an objective mindset and approached them they would have received an amazing story experience.
Instead we likely instead probably end up with a lessened experience because of all of this and sanctions on what they are able to do as a volunteer.
I have a bad feeling that it’s just going to go back to the status quo and that’s gonna stink.
Ever since Tiur linked an Attack on Titan gif describing His salute, Bamathis is forever gonna be Commander Shadis now.
I had stuff about the fascistic imagery discussion but honestly? That's not going to be helpful here - all I ask is that please be adults about all this. The imagery is there, it's been demonstrated, and nobody is calling you a fascist for not seeing it or even thinking it's no big deal, just respect the perspective of others and don't be a dick.
Now, for the meat of my post which I hope to be more productive:
One of the issues here is how little information there actually is about the Albedi Gods and their worshippers, at least that's my perspective as a relatively new player. Going just by events posts Bamathis looks like a genocidal prick. Talking to players IC does glean more information but I'll be honest - I wouldn't have even gone that far without specific guild reqs prompting me to do that digging. The trouble is I only have PCs that I can depend upon to give some information on it, who would all either have been taking part in the massacres directly or been trying to convert people to spare them. But point is - you don't have a victim's perspective at all. We only have the side of the attackers, only half the story. Furthermore, even if there are NPCs that are 'survivors' floating around, it basically depends on being around at the same time as a volunteer who is willing and able to RP things out and has enough knowledge of the events to RP everything out believably.
This creates a problem because it leaves players to fill in the blanks, and people tend to fill in the blanks with the worst assumptions. We have no reason to believe the nameless masses slaughtered are anything but innocent victims of a monster. So, here is what I think - give us some talkative NPC refugees who can give information, even make news posts to let us know who and where they are. Now, when writing these NPCs make it clear that their old way of living was not desirable for them, but you can add in some nuance. Right now, the question you're asking players to answer is "Is it right to genocide a foreign culture because it appears threatening to our own?" which is... a problematic question because there is only one socially acceptable answer. Here's a question that's topical, has staying power, and leaves a hell of a lot of room for nuance without drawing parallels to one of the worst regimes in history:
"Is military force an effective tool for improving the lives of those in oppressive regimes?" - this can be done by making the Albedi Orders seem... rabid, puritanical, you can draw some inspiration from RL cults and rigid religious authorities (avoid ISIS, those wounds are too fresh even if it did come to mind while I was thinking on this). Make the contrast, but do not shy away from the costs of Bamathis's methods. So you're shifting the parallels from fascism and Naziism which is squicky and hard to do without pissing off a lot of players and shifting it to interventionism and wars of liberation. It's still hard to do right, and still has room for oversimplification and offense, and many players do have strong feelings about these things, but hopefully won't draw the same strong reactions. I dunno what storyboard and framework exists but maybe there is room in there for this kind of shift? Note, I don't know what question this storyline is trying to ask the playerbase, but if it's the first one then the parallels to Nazis or similar regimes are unavoidable for the faction doing the genociding and will piss off people if it's the faction players are expected to support.
The other major issue and probably the bigger one is the fear that opposing Bamathis means org deletion. So I think a big thing to help ease up on the drama comes down to answering one simple question:
"If orgs actively and directly oppose Bamathis using all means at their disposal, do they risk destruction at the hands of the admins/Gods?"
I'm very specific at that last one because if it's players doing it to other players that's just RP running its course. I'd hate to be on the losing side (and let's be honest - with my character's moral compass and how he seems to be in the minority regarding his principles he almost certainly would be), but it's more fun to have to deal with players who you can convince/talk at/fight against than it is to go "well, that God is pissed aaaaand you're dead". Even better if no destruction is risked at all as it makes whatever question you're trying to ask the playerbase one that we're allowed to answer ourselves but ultimately there are a lot of ways to make things fun without having to make people who feel like Bamathis may be fascist feel like they have to side with or compromise with him.
Alright, I'm done, going to bed, and bracing for impact.
Open for it again anytime.
Every question you're asking about Bamathis is applicable to my previous post about basically the entire spirit side as well as Ivoln and the Teradrim.
That's not even debatable. The subrace of vampires are not welcome and are to be eliminated by the perspective of Enorian. Undead as a subrace are not welcome and are to be eliminated. They should be converted or killed.
I don't see why Bamathis needs to be addressed more carefully. What's the distinction? Why is one fine but not the other?
And even if Bamathis is an evil, fascist god, so what? Let him be. This sounds like an interesting concept one way or the other. I don't need Bamathis to have targets who deserve it when the targets are text strings.
No, really, why? What did you hope to add with your post?