Recent Concerns Regarding Bamathis

TiurTiur Producer
edited May 2020 in Harpy's Head Tavern
Thank you to everyone who has voiced your opinion to me on the matter of Bamathis. We did not want to rush to a decision and have discussed the matter a great deal in the Pools, including opinions on both sides of the argument.

To those who are unaware of the situation, it has been recently brought to our attention that some aspects of Bamathis have made players uncomfortable due to fascist imagery and themes. First off, most importantly, please rest assured that nobody in the Pools, past or present, condones or supports these themes. No one involved in creating, writing, or playing of Bamathis has had any intention of making any connection like this.

The armbands of the Order were designed to be worn around the wrist, with no intended connotations or reference to Nazi armbands. We do realize that the naming convention can evoke such imagery, however, and have consequently changed the name of the item to be more clear and remove the ambiguity.

The Legionnaire's Salute has been noted as a concern. To clarify, the motion of the salute does not in any way take inspiration from or resemble the Nazi salute. The salute starts with a straight arm at the side of the body and brings the fingers to hit the opposite shoulder. It's fairly similar to other salutes found in the game, such as the Sentinels' heartbeat taps or Iosyne's salute. If the salute is unclear in its intent or imagery, please let us know what parts are causing confusion. For illustration's sake, it's fairly similar to the salute found in a popular anime:



For concerns about the story position that Bamathis occupies, we do welcome (and encourage!) dissension and narrative beats off the established track. However, please be aware that there is also an overarching narrative and progression for Aetolia that have been established through years of storyboarding and development, much of which is not yet visible to players. While we will do our best to accommodate different approaches/reactions to the story, there is also a path and end game that are established. That said, we will make it explicitly clear if there are wide-ranging repercussions to IC decisions.

The largest point of contention and discussion revolves around the name of Bamathis' Order, the Argent Legion. It has been brought up that this draws some parallels to a defunct fascist group in America's history, the Silver Legion. For context, Bamathis' Order name is based upon Aetolian lore, where silver is Varian's colour and the Argent Legion essentially serves as Varian's army. The naming convention also plays upon fantasy military tropes.

We discussed this at length, including considering your input throughout your emails and other media, and heard a lot of great points and arguments on both sides from players and Pools alike. We acknowledge and understand that the name is a source of discomfort and that it would be a relatively simple fix to modify the name. On the other hand, the name is rooted in Aetolian lore (wholly unrelated to fascism), has been firmly established within Aetolia, and holds no direct connection to the fascist group in question. As such, we are keeping the name as-is in homage to Aetolia's established lore and history. Again, let me stress that this is by no means condoning any fascist themes and any attempts to use this, or any other aspect of the game, as a springboard for pushing those themes and/or bullying will be harshly punished.

Going forward, we will be sure to closely monitor for unintended connections and parallels to real life organizations and themes. Thank you for all your input and discussion around this topic.
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Comments

  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    Tiur said:

    Going forward, we will be sure to closely monitor for unintended connections and parallels to real life organizations and themes.

    To lay my position on the table, I'm one of the people who thinks the name should've been changed, and I'm a little confused about what people in my position are to take away from this closing statement in particular. If you're monitoring for unintended symbolism, but have no intention on changing said symbolism when it's pointed out, what is precisely the purpose of monitoring for it?

    RijettaMephistolesAloliArath
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in Attica
    edited May 2020
    While some of the problematic aspects have been mentioned, there's still a few more that haven't.

    The whole 'For Sapience' thing has a very ultranationalist propaganda vibe. Okay, on it's own, not a problem.

    Then there's the aspect where going after non-Sapience pantheon worship that's considered to be threats happens to potentially paint targets on settlements and races that are somewhat analogues of real life non-White cultures. The Atav in Skythrone? Look at their food, and it's very mesoAmerican. Saluria? South American, Mayan, Incan, Aztec vibes. The Mitrine? Ethiopian. Indyuk? Inuit/Eskimo. And of course, the Mhun, which have parallels to Jews. Again, by itself, probably not a problem even with the ethnic cleansing vibe.

    Then there's the genocide aspect. For people who worship Albedi gods, it's convert or die, and players who don't want in on killing people are forced into conversion, which itself is...an avenue RIFE with unfortunate implications because it's still a form of genocide via erasure of religion. Players are not given another option. Feels very Crusades or Spanish Inquisitio, but again, on it's own, not too problematic.

    Now roll all of that together. Consider the themes, consider where it feels like things are going. A lot of us can't see the full picture or know the full story of what's going on, but what we DO see looks...really, really bad. And knowing people can't see the full picture or don't know the full scope of what's going on, that outward image is kind of important, and while those individual parts I mentioned, and what was highlighted in the main post, are not problematic on their own or even with a couple of them. But it's the entire damn package.

    Yes, this is a fantasy game. Yes, it's a fantasy game with dark themes. Yes, we're all just players playing characters just RPing a role. But it doesn't take much to see where things could go, and the whole point of pointing these problematic things out is to ensure that they're treated with some measure of sensitivity and maturity. And there has to be some mindfulness in how much is allowed 'because it's RP'.

    EDIT: I find it somewhat telling that I request some sensitivity and maturity be considered in viewing the package as a whole, and there's a bunch of dislikes already. 
    FezzixOonaghEhtiasDrystinJiriAloliOemeria
  • TiurTiur Producer
    I mean that we're going to carefully evaluate Bamathis going forward and take seriously any concerns. In that specific instance, we opt to keep the Aetolian historical reference.
  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    Tiur said:

    I mean that we're going to carefully evaluate Bamathis going forward and take seriously any concerns. In that specific instance, we opt to keep the Aetolian historical reference.

    Alright. I think it's clear I don't agree with the decision, but thank you for clarifying.

  • SibattiSibatti Mamba dur Naya Amidst vibrant flora and trees
    Okay, but... Attack on Titan, while an anime, is based on an absolutely fascist and corrupt military. It's not exactly.... an improvement?
    LinRasani
  • BenedictoBenedicto Tentacles Errywhere!
    edited May 2020
    I'm going to chime in on this topic as an individual character that butts heads frequently with Bamathis over His methods and who has been attempting to defend against His rather aggressive courting of Templar individuals.

    For me (and this is just my opinion), I think the primary issue lay in the fact that Bamathis was installed as a normal Divine with an Order. If the role of Bamathis was designed to be the focal point for these wider events involving Albedi Gods/threats to sapience, then to truly stay 'neutral' across the tethers, he should have remained a Divine that remained aloof from the usual concerns of the Aetolian pantheon. Varian set him to be 'above' the other Divine and that extra authority could have explained why he didn't function in the same way. That way, we could have had a setup similar to the Ashtan Resistance, where individuals could volunteer to be part of the force/org that defends Sapience and it is only in those instances where we need to be alerted and that channel is used. In this scenario, Bamathis only really appears or gets involved when it's matters relating to these wider events, rather than having much more intimate involvements with the various orgs of Sapience. It also saves on the appearance of favoritism. During the Chaos Lords event, it was only the Argent Legion who had access to the means to kill the Chaos Heralds, which at the time, was only made up of the Shadow tether.

    Instead, we have our current Bamathis. A Divine that has clearly and frequently expressed favoritism for the Shadow tethered militaristic orgs such as the Carnifex and Syssin, and who has also expressed (on numerous occasions) disdain for the morals that Enorian follows as 'the good guys'. Now I know that in this game 'good' can be subjective, but by and large, we're expected to be moralistic.

    I know it's not the fault of the individual behind the character as I'm certain that they're just following instructions on how the character is supposed to be played - brutal, unforgiving and entitled. However, for myself, it has certainly rubbed me up the wrong way as one of the 'good guys'. It makes me feel like a second-class citizen when we turn up to these events and our RP dictates that we have to maintain some sort of stance instead of brutally slaughtering an entire race of people without a care in the world. The same disdain that Bamathis shows to Enorian is echoed, to a much lesser extent, by the others who follow him.

    For the sake of my RP, Benedicto is frequently treated in a 'not very nice way' by Bamathis because of his principals and his stance. I don't mind this because this is what one expects from a Shadow/Not Very Nice Divine. But it does feel bad when you've then got to turn out for these sapience threatening events or else potentially run the risk of being Indorani'd.

    Also there is the big Duamvi question. A non-Aetolian originating species that has moved into Enorian and even occupies some of the people of sapience as hosts. When's that going to potentially become a huge issue?
    image
    SeirOonaghArdentXavinAeryxDarimEscelikaAloliOemeria
  • Sibatti said:

    Okay, but... Attack on Titan, while an anime, is based on an absolutely fascist and corrupt military. It's not exactly.... an improvement?

    militaries have salutes, they are not problematic gestures.
    Toz says, "Dishonor on you (Mjoll), dishonor on your family (Seirath), dishonor on your cow (Bulrok)"
    OonaghFezzixMephistolesZailaIesidDrystin
  • @Mjoll Let's change it to this. It'll be less offensive.


    OonaghXavinPhoeneciaAeryxTeaniEscelikaMephistolesZailaArdentLinSeurimasDrystinGalileiArath
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in Attica
    And it's stuff like the above is why I feel like the whole thing won't be treated with sensitivity or maturity.
    TekiasAeryxSibattiDarimBenedictoLinDrystinXavinKarhastMephistolesAloli
  • @Kjell Have a hug, my friend.
    OonaghKjellTiana
  • edited May 2020
    We should listen to Kjell. He's been a source of wisdom for me since I started playing, even if he doesn't know it. After a few short conversations, I've made changes to how I approach things in the game due to his criticism. I look at it not as changing myself but as keeping flexible enough to know when some aspect can be adjusted. Sanding off the rough edges.

    As someone who wasn't around during Bamathis' rise to power, it does seem odd that he's set up to be a leader of the other gods, with an extremely broad and flexible goal, and yet is clearly aligned with Shadow. I'm sharing a bit of my in-character conspiracy theory, but that looked to Escelika, an Orc Shaman in Duiran, like someone using word of the command(Law) and not the spirit of it to obtain a different goal. Sort of like how AIs always conclude that the best way to protect humanity is to just wipe it out.

    I can't bring this up in-game because that level of complexity usually gets ruled out due to relying on strong admin influence to validate lore. This is something players need for the framework of their personal roleplay/organization stories to function properly.
    OonaghSibattiBenedictoDarimPilarAloli
  • edited May 2020
    I've said this many times but here it is once again.

    We wouldn't have players being so OOC motivated to consider allowing Bamathis worship in Spirit if we had more than 1.5 active Spirit gods at a time.
    KarhastAeryxStineOonaghTetchtaXavinDarimFezzixAloli
  • RijettaRijetta Nowhere Important
    Czcibor said:
    I've said this many times but here it is once again. We wouldn't have players being so OOC motivated to consider allowing Bamathis worship in Spirit if we had more than 1.5 active Spirit gods at a time.
    Yeah, Spirit gods don't like to stick around for long.
    A low, sultry voice resounds within the depths of your mind, "I look forward to seeing your descent."
    Oonagh
  • edited May 2020
    Facts
  • I wonder why :?
    Toz says, "Dishonor on you (Mjoll), dishonor on your family (Seirath), dishonor on your cow (Bulrok)"
    OonaghDarimLinXavinTetchtaAeryxSibattiMephistolesCzciennAloli
  • BenedictoBenedicto Tentacles Errywhere!
    Mjoll said:

    I wonder why :?

    I think we're in danger of getting off topic. This is supposed to be a discussion on Bamathis and the concerns surrounding that.
    image
    XavinMjoll
  • that some aspects of Bamathis have made players uncomfortable due to fascist imagery and themes. First off, most importantly, please rest assured that nobody in the Pools, past or present, condones or supports these themes. No one involved in creating, writing, or playing of Bamathis has had any intention of making any connection like this.


    This really deserves repeating as I have witnessed several divine volunteers across both Achaea and Aetolia bearing the brunt of criticisms. I see these issues/dissent bubbling over time, sometimes weeks up to months, and eventually explodes to a point where it is no longer enjoyable for the volunteer to progress the story.

    It is also my understanding that volunteers put a lot of time and effort studying up on their selected divine and storyboarding for events. It's easy to become attached and it's easy to feel that you've somehow failed in actualizing your plans. So I wanted to put in my third party two cents that Bamathis' volunteer did a phenomenal job building up not only his role but the people around him (even people not in his order). Having played IREs for many years, I'd put Bamathis' volunteer quality up there with current Sartan (Achaea) and 2016's+ Aurora (Achaea). I would hope that these valid themes (as dark and painful as they are) would not sully the work the volunteer accomplished. Definetly amazing work.

    I think going forward it is important for IRE to be more transparent and quicker in addressing complaints. This thread honestly makes me feel better, but I think it was done too late.

    (Illuminai): Saltz says, "Moxie is just doing the Moxie thing to do, often misinterpreted."

    (Tells): Sir Iames Gallant, the Executioner tells you, "The one Illuminai beyond prayer, I swear."

    Valingar: "How could a daughter of me, the most noble man in the south, be so heartless?"

    (Tells): Haven Locke, Illuminai Khimaira tells you, "Be that as it may, I've also seen the strength in you. You can take care of yourself."
    BenedictoSeurimasOonaghDrystinRhineMephistolesAloli
  • I’ll iterate that the current Bamathis role played better than almost any of my God experiences in aetolia thus far. I on a character level developed a change in RP because the interactions were amazing and it was the first time in my experience I didn’t feel like the God was catering to certain players or friends.

    The general feel of the roleplay was organic, harsh, and laden with a lot of feeling and I think if people reached out with an objective mindset and approached them they would have received an amazing story experience.

    Instead we likely instead probably end up with a lessened experience because of all of this and sanctions on what they are able to do as a volunteer.

    I have a bad feeling that it’s just going to go back to the status quo and that’s gonna stink.
    MoxieMephistoles
  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    Oonagh said:

    I’ll iterate that the current Bamathis role played better than almost any of my God experiences in aetolia thus far. I on a character level developed a change in RP because the interactions were amazing and it was the first time in my experience I didn’t feel like the God was catering to certain players or friends.

    Totally reiterating this. I joined the congregation solely because he's a tremendously skilled roleplayer.

    OonaghMephistoles
  • I don't care what Bamathis looks like in-game.

    Ever since Tiur linked an Attack on Titan gif describing His salute, Bamathis is forever gonna be Commander Shadis now.
    OonaghIesidEscelikaTetchtaMoxieMephistoles
  • Bama is edgy legolas

    OonaghMoxieGalileiRhyot
  • Y'know, I said I wasn't going to get involved in forum drama, said I'd stay out of this... I chimed in on Discord but I figured I'd let forum drama be forum drama... the lies we tell ourselves right?

    I had stuff about the fascistic imagery discussion but honestly? That's not going to be helpful here - all I ask is that please be adults about all this. The imagery is there, it's been demonstrated, and nobody is calling you a fascist for not seeing it or even thinking it's no big deal, just respect the perspective of others and don't be a dick.

    Now, for the meat of my post which I hope to be more productive:

    One of the issues here is how little information there actually is about the Albedi Gods and their worshippers, at least that's my perspective as a relatively new player. Going just by events posts Bamathis looks like a genocidal prick. Talking to players IC does glean more information but I'll be honest - I wouldn't have even gone that far without specific guild reqs prompting me to do that digging. The trouble is I only have PCs that I can depend upon to give some information on it, who would all either have been taking part in the massacres directly or been trying to convert people to spare them. But point is - you don't have a victim's perspective at all. We only have the side of the attackers, only half the story. Furthermore, even if there are NPCs that are 'survivors' floating around, it basically depends on being around at the same time as a volunteer who is willing and able to RP things out and has enough knowledge of the events to RP everything out believably.

    This creates a problem because it leaves players to fill in the blanks, and people tend to fill in the blanks with the worst assumptions. We have no reason to believe the nameless masses slaughtered are anything but innocent victims of a monster. So, here is what I think - give us some talkative NPC refugees who can give information, even make news posts to let us know who and where they are. Now, when writing these NPCs make it clear that their old way of living was not desirable for them, but you can add in some nuance. Right now, the question you're asking players to answer is "Is it right to genocide a foreign culture because it appears threatening to our own?" which is... a problematic question because there is only one socially acceptable answer. Here's a question that's topical, has staying power, and leaves a hell of a lot of room for nuance without drawing parallels to one of the worst regimes in history:

    "Is military force an effective tool for improving the lives of those in oppressive regimes?" - this can be done by making the Albedi Orders seem... rabid, puritanical, you can draw some inspiration from RL cults and rigid religious authorities (avoid ISIS, those wounds are too fresh even if it did come to mind while I was thinking on this). Make the contrast, but do not shy away from the costs of Bamathis's methods. So you're shifting the parallels from fascism and Naziism which is squicky and hard to do without pissing off a lot of players and shifting it to interventionism and wars of liberation. It's still hard to do right, and still has room for oversimplification and offense, and many players do have strong feelings about these things, but hopefully won't draw the same strong reactions. I dunno what storyboard and framework exists but maybe there is room in there for this kind of shift? Note, I don't know what question this storyline is trying to ask the playerbase, but if it's the first one then the parallels to Nazis or similar regimes are unavoidable for the faction doing the genociding and will piss off people if it's the faction players are expected to support.

    The other major issue and probably the bigger one is the fear that opposing Bamathis means org deletion. So I think a big thing to help ease up on the drama comes down to answering one simple question:

    "If orgs actively and directly oppose Bamathis using all means at their disposal, do they risk destruction at the hands of the admins/Gods?"

    I'm very specific at that last one because if it's players doing it to other players that's just RP running its course. I'd hate to be on the losing side (and let's be honest - with my character's moral compass and how he seems to be in the minority regarding his principles he almost certainly would be), but it's more fun to have to deal with players who you can convince/talk at/fight against than it is to go "well, that God is pissed aaaaand you're dead". Even better if no destruction is risked at all as it makes whatever question you're trying to ask the playerbase one that we're allowed to answer ourselves but ultimately there are a lot of ways to make things fun without having to make people who feel like Bamathis may be fascist feel like they have to side with or compromise with him.

    Alright, I'm done, going to bed, and bracing for impact.
    OonaghDarimGalileiDrystinXavinSibattiBenedictoAloli
  • Thank you for sharing perspective @Jourik and like I told you IC, I really enjoyed our roleplay and discussion.
    Open for it again anytime.
  • edited May 2020
    Jourik said:

    .... The trouble is I only have PCs that I can depend upon to give some information on it, who would all either have been taking part in the massacres directly or been trying to convert people to spare them. But point is - you don't have a victim's perspective at all. We only have the side of the attackers, only half the story. Furthermore, even if there are NPCs that are 'survivors' floating around, it basically depends on being around at the same time as a volunteer who is willing and able to RP things out and has enough knowledge of the events to RP everything out believably.

    ... "Is it right to genocide a foreign culture because it appears threatening to our own?" which is... a problematic question because there is only one socially acceptable answer. Here's a question that's topical, has staying power, and leaves a hell of a lot of room for nuance without drawing parallels to one of the worst regimes in history...

    ... Note, I don't know what question this storyline is trying to ask the playerbase, but if it's the first one then the parallels to Nazis or similar regimes are unavoidable for the faction doing the genociding and will piss off people if it's the faction players are expected to support.

    Your city and guild advocate genocide of vampires and the undead. Your character, as a knight of the Templar, would almost certainly be in favor of the elimination (genocide by definition) of all undead.

    Every question you're asking about Bamathis is applicable to my previous post about basically the entire spirit side as well as Ivoln and the Teradrim.

    That's not even debatable. The subrace of vampires are not welcome and are to be eliminated by the perspective of Enorian. Undead as a subrace are not welcome and are to be eliminated. They should be converted or killed.

    I don't see why Bamathis needs to be addressed more carefully. What's the distinction? Why is one fine but not the other?

    And even if Bamathis is an evil, fascist god, so what? Let him be. This sounds like an interesting concept one way or the other. I don't need Bamathis to have targets who deserve it when the targets are text strings.
    image
    DarimMjollGalileiHawaSilenaArath
  • KarhastKarhast Enorian
    Mjoll said:

    I wonder why :?

    Why don't you ask them instead of coming here to leave stuff implied?

    No, really, why? What did you hope to add with your post?
    LinOonaghIazamatEhtias
  • Karhast said:

    Mjoll said:

    I wonder why :?

    Why don't you ask them instead of coming here to leave stuff implied?

    No, really, why? What did you hope to add with your post?
    I was just asking. Why are you always so hostile :S
    Toz says, "Dishonor on you (Mjoll), dishonor on your family (Seirath), dishonor on your cow (Bulrok)"
    LinSibattiTetchtaAeryx
This discussion has been closed.