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The Reality of it all...
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Experience Gained: 47720 (Special) [total: 2933660]
Needed for LVL: 122.00775356245
Sounds like spirit needs to find something to unify them when opinions split. If not a philosophy then a person. That can be the final authority on what direction spirit should be nudging. One that everyone can agree and get behind on spirit. Could be a player, could be an npc, could be a god. But these tough choices will keep coming to both sides while we remain a gothic styled mud. Unless we want to change the theme of the game entirely and no longer be gothic, both sides need to find effective ways to deal with it.
Remember how during the Liruma War, Enorian and Duiran moving to support the Mitrine was kind of a no-brainer while Bloodloch and Spinesreach were choosing between the Ophidians and Imps, and the confusion over where Shadow gods were directing or influencing the decision?
Yes, having moral dilemmas and difficult choices makes things interesting, but do it all the time and it becomes exhausting, and starts breeding resentment. Shadow side, it's very easy to swat aside moral dilemmas with the excuse of not giving a crap. Oh, that Shadow experiment backfired and destroyed a chunk of the continent and killed lots of people? Enh, minor setback - let's move on to the next one.
Shadow side doesn't get these sorts of issues because there really isn't a moral question in Spinesreach or Bloodloch. The safe events for Duiran or Enorian are much rarer and usually limited to sub-orgs. The baby omei event, for example, was literally an Omei order event about getting that god a new shell. Low risk, no matter what way you cut it.
I guess I'm not following, then. Are there any examples of a Shadow tether event that you wish Spirit tether had something similar?
Experience Gained: 47720 (Special) [total: 2933660]
Needed for LVL: 122.00775356245
Edit: Want to note though that we're derailing this thread with a different topic, and we should likely return to the original point of how a player was chased from their organization by a mixture of OOC commentary and actions that run contrary to what an organization has historically done, how they've acted with eleven years of established roleplay, and has as tenets.
ETA: Ahem, sorry, I'll try to be a little more constructive. I try very hard to stay away from OOC stuff as much as I can, though sometimes it can't be helped. Precious, precious few people have my Discord, and I like for it to be that way. I much prefer to feel like things come from the characters in the game, rather than the players, even if they're doing something to try to help me out. If someone meta's against me, that's fine, but you should expect my character(or anyone else's character) to respond accordingly to what they see in the game.
Remember the Liruma War, when Spirit side had a clear side to back and Shadow players spent several RL days deliberating over whether or not to back the imps or ophidians, and Spirit had a massive head start in claiming territory because of it?
Remember the Three Widow War, when many Bloodloch characters wanted to support the slavers, and Spinesreach spent a long time with an intense moral debate over why they should support the villagers instead? You weren't privy to any of this, but it was a big source of contention. This, once again, gave the Spirit players a head start.
Remember after the War of Night when Abhorash absorbed Ati and became infused with the Shadowbound Taint? The Syssin looked into it, the lore was backed up by Severn, and we took action against the Dominion. It upset a lot of players, and it sparked all kinds of IC and OOC turmoil between orgs that were normally very close. It took years for us to recover, but now we've got the best relationship between orgs that I've seen in my five years playing.
Don't lecture me about how easy Shadow has it or how we never have to make hard decisions. Don't whine at me about how the direction of the lore is tearing your communities apart. Deal with it like we did.
EDIT: I'm not going to touch on being "handed" wins in events. What I'm getting at is that Shadow side has definitely had its own moral hurdles and debates to overcome, and yet we still manage to do well. If you want to win the culture wars IC, take action. Omei just opened up membership to Spinesreach and Bloodloch, but I don't see any outcry over it.
If you honestly thing that those situations compare to the consistent bending over that spirit orgs tend to get in events, where they are railroaded and given a LOLARTIFICE'D conclusion, or they are punished for something they had no way of possibly resolving because it's what the admin wanted to happen in the first place, I don't know what to tell you.
Shadow doesn't -get- the moral choices in events because Shadow gets the luxury of not NEEDING morals. Shadow hasn't been hammered into the ground since pre-2004 with 'this is how your orgs are to act and if you don't we'll burn you to the ground'. Three events where Bloodloch and Spinesreach may have had different objectives or sides does not equate to 15+
YEARS of events where Enorian or Duiran or one of their child orgs are given choices A B and C and all of them are designed to blow up in their faces. And it's freakin' insulting that you think this is something that we just 'need to deal with'. The fact of the matter is that the two sides of the game are treated differently when it comes to events. And that this particular storyline has been botched in a way that many, many before it were also botched.
I will list off all the Spirit events that I know of where there were a division of sides, confusing or conflicting information of what to do, or trying to do the right thing or following the RP only to have it blow up in your face.
Aside from the current Bamathis stuff...
Repeated divisions on the acceptance of Omei in both Enorian and Duiran over the years. The Gray Accords: Duiran dragged its feet in joining and was initially very resistant on cooperating with Shadow until leaders were yelled at by gods. The question of accepting refugees in Duiran. Race riots in Enorian, twice. The death of the Illuminai guild tutor. Various arguments over conversion vs extermination.
I have been called every negative word under the sun, and it's gotten to the point where I'm mostly numb to it. Why? Because I have been spit on for the 17 years that I've been playing IRE. I started back in Imperian and while I won't say who I was because I don't trust that people will/won't hold who I was against me, but I was kicked out of two cities, enemied and hunted constantly because I was not part of the 'in crowd' when I was coming up the ranks of the city and did not agree with the idea of cliques, I still don't. In Aetolia, I have heard from a handful of people that i am "blacklisted" from being sold various items because I'm a toxic player. In some instances, I have been told in OOC communication that I will not be sold various items because I'm a shadow player and don't deserve those items or that if I ever got accepted as a Celani that people would quit en masse (these comments have been the ones stopping me from even TRYING to apply).
This has expanded into far reaching OOC formats as well. For awhile, I was part of the Delve Discord server. During my time of being part of it, I was belittled, attacked, and pushed out to the sides because I wasn't part of the main clique within that server. This came to a head when I had achieved level 200 and had been given the Chaos Lord race/class. I was admonished in the server for being given a special class and was additionally attacked via PMs for the same reason. When I asked why the hostility, I was told "You are a shadow player and you don't deserve it. If you were Spirit, this wouldn't be a problem." This was further compounded by being told that there were going to be issues upon issues submitted to have it either removed/nerfed into the ground to be unusable. When I decided to defend myself against such aggressive behavior (mind you, my verbage was not exactly calm, but rather highly aggressive and anyone who knows me knows I can have a very colorful vocabulary though it's gotten a lot better over the past couple years), I was banned without any mention as to why. I was then shown screenshots from that server where those who perpetuated the toxic behavior were high fived and told they did a good job. It is due to this behavior that I refuse (to this day) to try to rejoin either the Delve Discord or even join the Official Discord, because I have no faith in the playerbase that this will not happen again because we all hold grudges for way too long.
And yes, players absolutely hold grudges. For a long time after Razmael nerfed Chaos Lord into something more flavor rather than PVP-viable, I held a grudge against him and all the other players who I had received messages from saying they would issue against it. While I have forgiven Razmael and come to terms that Chaos Lord IS just a flavor skillset, in no way have I forgiven the players who attacked me in that Discord or had sent me those hateful toxic messages, and honestly, I don't think I ever will. The anger and hatred for these players has only festered and made me not want to play Aetolia. While I have trust in Tiur, Keroc, and Razmael to make the appropriate decisions based off the evidence that they can gather (which is exceedingly difficult when the only information that can be viably used has to be gathered IG only)... I have lost a lot of trust in a portion of the playerbase because of a few key individuals who have a large clique in this game.
Cliques, I feel, are going to happen. It happens everywhere from the time we're in grade school all the way up through corporate settings. Aetolia is no different. Hell, IRE in itself is a clique because we're about 200-300 people playing a very niche genre of game that is otherwise non-existent in today's age of video games. The problems arise when a member of one of those cliques get into power and then hold that power extensively, bully players, ostracize players, or otherwise make it so only that clique can be successful. They are defended by their clique while those who spoke up are alienated and degraded to a point that they quit the game. This is abhorrent, toxic behavior and -should- be stopped. But how do you stop this toxic cliqueish behavior? Respect.
We, as a playerbase... as a community, HAVE to show each other respect. It doesn't matter what our walks of life are or how we choose to play the game. The problem that the Aetolian community has is breaking away from this idea of it's my way or no way at all. Yes, I understand we're all going to get heated when one of the classes that we use gets shot with a Nerf dart, but we have to remember that it's to balance the game. BALANCE! It's not an attack on either side, it's just to balance the game. No one knows everything. No one will ever know everything. But this idea that "because you're not playing on my side, I'm going to make sure nobody has interactions with you" needs to stop, because it's this idea that is causing so much animosity, so much anger, so much toxicity, and so much negativity that it bleeds. Think of this toxicity like a cancer. Cancer spreads and it spreads quick, especially when it has room to multiply. But we have to be willing to do better ourselves FIRST before we can start being better to others. Speaking personally, I do my best to curb my tongue and hold onto MY anger, because it's not anyone else's fault that I get angry. So why should I lash out at everyone on shadow tether because I'm angry? It isn't fair to the 20 some odd players who sit in web with me to be subject to such negativity, especially when ALL OF US deal with stress and use this game to escape the real world to have fun. I know if -I- can do it, everyone else can too.
As far as the Pools, I am sure that it's probably a few of the same rotating individuals because it's likely the only same individuals applying? Or maybe others are applying but because there's a clique in the Pools, only the few get accepted? I'm not sure. I only know two people who have ever gone to the Pools and that's because one of them had mentioned that they had been there 2-3 times and the second one, I only heard through the grapevine that they were a Celani. Here's my thing with being a Celani, I feel if you want to go up, you should be allowed to. It doesn't matter if your character is a city leader, order head, etc. If you want to go, then apply and try. On top of that, there should be a very strict NDA that you have to sign in that
1) You -cannot- tell anyone you are a Celani, doing so will see your dismissal as a Celani.
2) You -cannot- speak to anyone in any OOC methods unless absolutely necessary (such as Official Discord). Violation of such will see your dismissal. (If this means you have delete everyone from your friends list on Discord, so be it or better yet, make a new Discord)
3) Whatever side you were dominant on, should you be allowed to play a God, you cannot be involved in anything of that Order/City/playerbase.
4) You will be dismissed after 2 years of being Celani and you cannot reapply for another 2 years. This will allow new blood, new ideas, new thought processes to go into the development of Aetolia. This will also help with burnout and help reduce stress.
5) You -cannot- tell anyone you -have been- a Celani. Doing so will ban you indefinitely from the Pools.
Now I have no idea how strict/light the NDA is for a Celani, or if they even sign one as a Celani. But the above actions might help cycle people or even hold current Celani to more strict rules. I feel like, as a Celani, you should be held to a high standard because your role is to help create material for this game and if you can't meet these high standards, then you really shouldn't be a Celani. It would also stop this idea that the people in the Pools only help out their friends or the people they are in cliques with.
Sure, a lot of times, morals won't trip Shadow up as much as it might Spirit, but there are still plenty of debates involved. The worst thing there is not being assisted when it comes to lore, or feeling like the lore of events contradict, or lack enough connection to the new changes.
----
As for toxicity, there is plenty in this game to go around. There are so many players here that I love and adore. I even crossed oceans to meet up with several of them. However, there are some who seem to be afraid of others for no good reason, and speak ill of them as a way to safeguard themselves.
I have been told, by more than one other player, that there have been players talking unicorns about me on OOC forums, and this has happened through the many years I've been playing, as well as lately when I've barely even been around to do anything. I do my very best to just ignore this and move past it, because I've lost the will to put that kind of energy into this game I have loved since somewhere around 2006. A confession, though, is that I have considered just calling it quits a few times. If anyone cares, you can thank a few wonderful players still in the game for keeping me where I am.
The number of people who have told me that they feel it is pointless to speak up feels staggeringly high at times. Even if it might be an awesome idea that could improve the game in so many ways, they feel that some other players/Admin/Volunteers would never want to hear something if it came from them, so why bother? This is something that shouldn't be taken lightly. Especially when it involves people saying such things about Admin/Volunteers. Sure, there is the usual salt and grumbles about balances and such, but some concerns run deeper. Personally, I preferred when there was more of a gag order when it came to Celani, leaving official communication to paid staff only. Maybe that's just me, but it seems like some of the other IRE games are still holding to that. Perhaps something could also be set up so people can't yo-yo up and down to Pools without some kind of grace period?
On the other side of that coin, Spinesreach in particular barely has any rails at all. We've had some great RP recently with Bamathis and Severn showing us an image of Spines during the last Immortal Age, but other than that, interaction is seldom. The Archivists in particular suffer from having no admin help, because the NPC that founded them told them they can't have a Patron.
1.) The events that actually happened, i.e. what caused Oonagh to create this thread) and the subject of roleplay and its validity.
2.) A conversation on how the Pools are managed (including volunteers), and the commentary on overall storyline handling and game conflict. Since Tiur made a new thread for this while I was writing this post, I'm going to refrain from talking about it here and keep this singularly focused on #1.
Also, I've noticed a few instances of people entering into this thread in bad faith. This is a common tactic - throw enough garbage at a topic and people will eventually give up. Unfortunately, Oonagh's original post was just vague enough to allow anyone to see what they want out of it. Not lambastic you, Oony, it's just how things work. Everyone sees a different shape when looking at a fluffy cloud, no matter how well-intentioned that cloud is.
The other danger sense tingling is that people and events are getting blurred together so that it's hard to definitively say who's talking about what or whom. All the vagueness just makes everyone seem guilty by association, which doesn't help. It feeds into the concept of "the others" and builds up a narrative that's much bigger than it actually is. Ultimately, guys... we are all passionate about Aetolia (obviously), and we really can't afford to ostracize each other. Everyone only loses when this happens.
1.) The events that actually happened.
What happened, happened. I'm only going to speak for myself and my character's actions, and if the involved parties want to chime in, I absolutely invite them to. The fact is (as @Oonagh even pointed out in one of the screenshots), me coming back to a very wild and alarming new reality IS and DID PROVIDE interesting, character-shaping roleplay. To claim that "tantrums were thrown" or that "the old guard only wants it a certain way" is reductionist, patently false, and honestly pretty hurtful? @Iesid, we even mutually acknowledged to each other, not even a week ago, that the tension this was creating wasn't being ruined by either player being a jerk about it. Did you forget about that?
For my character to get back and be surprised that her city is now no longer standing for what she (and they) believed in, and to react the way that she did upon returning, is absolutely valid roleplay and gameplay. For someone to imply that I can't talk that out in-game, or that I have to "get with what happened and stop living in the past" is lazy and frustrating writing.
In the essence of fair play and the game, Sibatti is a living being beyond my ability to play the game. While I might not be able to log in, Sibatti is off in the plane of Dendara defending the realm of nature. Coming back to a changed Duiran is absolutely a role play point for her character, and disagreeing with those changes or throwing a fit is an absolutely natural and valid reaction. Which brings me to this:
I think we need to fully address the screenshots posted above. This shot isn't put into full context and I think seeing the full context of the post shows that it wasn't written "facetiously." Some of these individuals are being legitimately nasty in game and out of game. To say that these are facetious are essentially wrapping it up as a "it was just a joke, bro." Except it wasn't.
The first screenshot is telling. Fezzix and Asiago (Oonagh) are actively attacking a player both in game and out, and this is affecting your role play and actions to this individual. This is despicable. Who a person is behind the screen is largely irrelevant, and bringing that into your role play is equally atrocious. Beyond the fact that these first two sentences illustrate clear metagaming reactions, they are also just nasty, beyond the spirit of the game and of role playing. In my AD&D campaign I play a 9 foot tall male centaur fighter and it's a blast. Commenting on the "behind the screen" personality of someone or their choice of who they play is beyond childish; it's repulsive.
The second screenshot illustrates the point I make above regarding "telling people how to role play." This isn't what role play is about. Remember; my character exists even if I can't play the game. Sibatti has thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. Certainly returning and seeing that everything has changed is a character arc. And it's a LEGITIMATE role play point and worry. We're not "****sticks" for maintaining our character's beliefs.
To say that we are being toxic for standing up for what our character believes, and to further set up plans on "ousting" us as players is purely metagaming nonsense, and honestly more than a bit creepy. Why care so passionately about the choices a character is making in a game, to the point of conspiring in an outside forum to make them miserable?
This is absolutely a mirror of the aforementioned complaint being lodged that people are upset that "RP isn't going their way". How is this any different?
It's also lead to incredibly derivative role play where people who "know" my character's background out of game are trying to suggest that I am in game without any significant basis in reality. I can't even count the number of times characters who should know nothing about Sibatti have approached her with knowledge they wouldn't feasibly know.
Scrolling down further, we see some truly disgusting responses in the discord. "Fezzix will happily assert dominance through violence and scary wordplay" I'm not even gonna touch. "Sibatti has never interacted with Fezzix" and "I've never interacted with her as a player either." Now Fezzix sets up a series of ideas for himself and others on what they could do to manipulate and modify the situation in game:
"Sib and Lin will have a rough time finding allies."
"Fezz could send Legions of assassins (We have a lot of syssin) in to put the screws to the cultists."
"I see multiple ways of dealing with this."
"I'd love to give the legion an enemy to foam at the mouth over."
"I will use my leverage as an "important" player who CAN'T go upstairs for that very reason."
"This is why I resort to harsh in game actions."
"So if issues don't work, I will be a rules lawyer in game and make people's play experience miserable."
This is the very definition of metagaming. He is suggesting/threatening using out of character knowledge to dictate game play, and is essentially threatening our comfort and style in the game. To the extent that he is commenting on not just affecting the in character world, but affecting the --player-- behind the screen. Hence "make people's play experience miserable."
And there's irony here that a group of individuals who are bashing a real life male player for playing a female character in game are calling those people toxic. The hypocrisy is palpable. I suppose, though, that threatening to "assert dominance" on a person you've never interacted with, and bashing a man for playing a woman in Aetolia aren't toxic at all, and are just "facetious" comments. Haha. Good joke. Everybody laugh. Roll on snare drum. Curtains.
With such jokes and hilarity it's no wonder people are frustrated, hurt and angry. That they find solace in other games that don't have this level of metagaming or behavior. And honestly? I won't be surprised to see some form of IC retaliation in response to what I've said here, either. I'm firmly in the camp of "live and let live", but I didn't make the choice of having this behavior foisted onto me. However, I will also absolutely not let flagrant untruths and shoulder-shrugging absolvings of responsibility go unchallenged.
It's not metagaming when you acknowledge how your character will react under certain stimuli.
It's also not metagaming when I state that I severely dislike someone. I know how to separate my feelings from those of my character. As much as I'd love to grief people who call my friends white supremacists, I haven't done it despite my rants.
Them's fightin' words.
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I cant find the shrug emoji and don't feel inclined to respond.
I'm not embarrased or ashamed by things I say, and am absolutely blunt when it comes to these sorts of things, part of the life of a person who works in the rehabilitation of others is not sugar-coating their feelings and being able to be expressive.
Ill go back to standing by my points and not feeling victimized.
I want to however say to the numerous people who have contacted me on discord and in-game, your words to me stating you are glad someone has taken a stand against what is deemed as the elitists and overall clique problems with this game as a whole have been, for all intents and purposes comforting, knowing that so many of you feel the way I feel and are not alone.
I am grateful for you being supportive and sharing some of your experiences with these toxic players, and how they have detracted from the environment of the game. I know I opened a can of worms with this, but I also handed out the shovels to dig the holes for those who wanted to claim them.
Ill share one of those snippets, censored since I don't want to post without permission from the person.
In my line of work we use a Release of Information for that, but may as well just REDACT.
I haven't always gotten along with @Iesid but big props to him for considering all angles and thinking outside the box a little bit instead of just "BAMBAM BAD!". Especially when his RP is tied to Omei and not Bamathis.
I personally haven't had any problems with any volunteers and I can't agree that Aetolia is THAT toxic of an environment, but I do think more people need to learn how to RP effectively. This means being interested in the RP of other people's characters as well as your own and allowing their RP to affect the course of your own, at least somewhat.This also means understanding the difference between the character and the player and I think a LOT of people are having a problem with this particular point right now.
Now, I see some of my comments posted above, and while they're put indelicately, I stand by the sentiments. They're things I've said repeatedly in one way or another in more public places, including the official Discord server. My frustrations about the situation with people pushing Albedi worship/acceptance isn't just about RP that I can act on ICly - it's also an emotional response to all the complaints about this massive point in the story (i.e. that opposition to the Albedi gods is a matter of our very existence) being made almost constantly by a handful of recently returning players in the official Discord. Your characters having their thoughts and feelings is fine. We can RP it out when and if our paths cross, and I'm not angry about there being IC disagreement. I find it immensely more frustrating to see the arguments taken OOC to the Discord when it's been made clear through the sudden, unilateral deletion of a thriving guild (and, although unrelated to me directly, a Shadow God/order - RIP Avareti) that any threat to Sapience is unacceptable. I find it immensely frustrating that months of rabble-rousing on the subject both OOC and IC seem to be met with nothing definitive because the storyline is halted by (insert resource-intensive project du jour).
To be as clear and direct as possible: I'm frustrated that there've been no discernible consequences for your characters going against the grain. This is something I feel OOCly as someone who was pretty publicly swatted down, and it's something my character has every reason to care about, insofar as she's even aware, given her connection to my previous character.
That said, I will only act on information I've obtained ICly. The most recent fracas started largely because I finally took the time to read Sibatti's description after a joking interaction in tells about nudity - this led to Hawa noting a detail, confronting Sibatti about it, and based on Sibatti's response, expressing distrust to a member of Duirani leadership. Other than bringing it up with leadership again the next day to ask what the result had been, this ended my involvement. I'm not trying to push anyone out of the game or out of an organization. While I may be frustrated and spout off angrily behind what I assumed were closed doors, I'm not playing to make anyone feel bad, even if I dislike or simply disagree with someone personally.
I've yet to see a single player apologize to one another. All I see is petty tribalism and people incapable of budging an inch to even realize that, "Hmm. Maybe I fucked up."
This is what I mean by this community being incredibly toxic. Some of you are grown ass adults, some of you even have children. It's this incapability of realizing that, whether you believe you are right or wrong, that potentially an apology is due. I'm not going to say who should apologize to who. You're all adults and should know when you done goofed.
@Fezzix I totally think I have been called a white supremacist by the same people. Or maybe more players like to toss that around than I realized.