Bashing Damage Numbers!

Mjoll

That's better and more consistent than even my dps! GUESS WE FOUND THE CLASS THAT NEEDS NERFED AMIRITE?!

edit: //EXTREME SARCASM I KNOW SHHHHHHHH//

Drystin

Aeryx said:

I switched back to Templar recently and spent some money/bound credits. So, some new numbers. This is pretty much the peak, I think, of what you can hit with as a 2h blade Templar. Red orb, red amulet, 21 strength, level 3 hunt boon, rune of cutting, level 3 statboost rune, Sacrifice Empower, Damage: 180 (+18) Penetration: 91 (+18) Speed: 132 (+18) 2h blade. 1412 x 2 @ 3.10s: 910 dps

I'm curious about the weaponprobe stats that you've got on that weapon and whether or not you've augmented it. 

Aeryx

@Drystin Yes, I augmented it 7 times. I think Aloli, who made it for me, had the damage at like 178 and I figured if I augmented it a bit I could reach the cap of 180 and along the way I also got a couple extra points of speed.

Aeryx

Switched to Monk recently. So, some new numbers.

18 strength, red amulet, red orb, level 3 hunt_monk boon artifact, level 3 knuckles, scorpion stance(and yes, before the trolls come out, I do have all Katas at Mastered):

Sidekick: 787 damage
Uppercut: 530 damage
Uppercut: 530 damage

1847 damage / 2.79s balance = 643 dps

Aeryx

As a follow up to above, I want to note that as Templar with 900ish dps, I have 2100cr invested into my bashing via hunt_templar 3, rune of cutting, and statboost level 3. For the 643 dps on Monk I have 2400cr invested into my bashing via level 3 knuckles and hunt_monk 3.

Ehtias

how many hits does templar do per bashing round?

Aeryx

Ehtias said:

how many hits does templar do per bashing round?

Two, but its still way higher dps than the three hits from Monk.

I think the biggest takeaway from this thread so far for me is that weapon classes have like 30% higher dps in bashing than other people. Which I suppose makes sense when you take into consideration that you have to get a good weapon forged and also have it augmented with Enchantment several times to hit these kinds of things.

Czcienn

Czcibor said:

Wayfarer
190 damage, 86 speed, rune of cutting
19 str, hunt1, red amulet, red orb
Anthem active
1328 @ 1.77
750 dps

Was reminded about this thread this morning so just a follow up.

Everything not listed is the same as last time.

186 damage, 120 speed

19 str
1281 @ 1.66
771 dps

20 str
1331 @ 1.66
801 dps

I tested warfare desolation and it doesn't seem to work on NPCs.

Also 18 dex Lob is 595 @ 0.83 for 716 dps. It has a 2.35 second return time. There is probably a world where you would want to alternate lob and chop for maximum bashing speed, but then you'd have to drop the shield so it probably works out to be worse overall.

Savas

Indorani bonedagger, 20 dex, bal enhance (nothing else)

1650 @ 3.26s
506 dps

worst bashing attack in the game? Quite possibly!

Vorlus

Frenzy is worse.

Rhine

1085 @ 2.4s
452dps

Sentinel bashing with 17str, hunt_sentinel(2), and crown(1). No orbs or amulets.

Oonagh

Rhine said:

1085 @ 2.4s
452dps

Sentinel bashing with 17str, hunt_sentinel(2), and crown(1). No orbs or amulets.

Sentinel Bashing is god awful, its bad cause the class is neat, its just yucky.....in PVE

Czcienn

Seems like the changes in changelog #1728 really hit Sentinels hard

Savas

Doesn't sentinel multihit, though? It's still bad, but tbh I'd take slightly lower DPS for the ability to multihit.

Stine

ITT: Classes that can manipulate weapon stats via augment and runes deal significantly more damage than what they are balanced around.

Rhine

Savas said:

Doesn't sentinel multihit, though? It's still bad, but tbh I'd take slightly lower DPS for the ability to multihit.

Yes. In that instance:
Crosscut - 545
Thrust - 540

Hawa

Stine said:

ITT: Classes that can manipulate weapon stats via augment and runes deal significantly more damage than what they are balanced around.

i've been saying this for a couple years, especially in reference to the pvp issues that arise from having damage (both hp and limb), balance times, and some secondary effects (e.g. bladefire charge buildup, deathlore soul drain) depend on weapon stats. it's so transparently bad for balance on every front, and yet.........

Gavramel

Attack: Corpus Frenzy | Target: a skittering onyx eld | Damage: 2236 | Balance: 3.16 | DPS: 707

Strength : 18
handtohand_damage(3)
hunt_praenomen(3)
enhancements: Speed - Balance

Drystin

wow.. that really does suck. 

Aeryx

Gavramel's example of Frenzy is slightly more dps than what Monk does with the same artifacts, but with 2 less chances for crits.

Edit: It's actually like 7% higher dps than Monk. Even with the slower speed.

Savas

I think it's important to state how awesome multihit/faster attacks are. The more you attack, the more you crit.

I'm not really going to math it out but I know that personally I'd prefer a less damaging attack that was faster or multihit over a slower attack that hit like a truck, any day.

Aeryx

I used to be down for that same argument, but it's just not true that it's faster. I have tested extensively. I have went in the Fracture, with 1 hour of eldcrit, and done 6 runs of it with my 5 hunter's tools, every day for the past month. I have done it with both Templar and Monk, as I have both, and I am fully artifacted and buffed for both. I have a timer for it in the eldcrit buff's timer in defenses. I usually get done with 6 runs of Fracture in about 40-45 minutes with Templar, and it usually takes about 50-58 minutes with Monk. Which lines up with the fact that my dps is 30% more in Templar than in Monk. The 1 extra chance for a crit does not make up for the decrease in damage. I also find it to be a myth that Monk are tankier, particularly with the recent nerf to numbness.

Borminchia

Since I started this thread I suppose I should come back and update with some of my own numbers and maybe summarize some of the points that have been made throughout the thread. Hopefully this will help point out why getting a snapshot of your DPS using a single attack/combo and dividing it by it's speed will only give you a base line and not the whole story.

New numbers and Xaanhal testing:

Teradrim - 19 STR - Club: Damage: 157 (+18) Penetration: 91 (+18) Speed: 157 (+18) - Red orb/Red amulet - +bal enhancement - stonefury imbue/blue runemark bashing defences
No hunting token or blunt damage rune (..yet)

Batter: 1481 damage, 2.52s balance, 587.7 DPS
Skullbash: 2095 damage, 3.54s balance, 591.8 DPS
Barrage: 498x3 damage (1494), 3.61s balance, 413.8 DPS


According to announce #2836, Teradrim bashing attacks are batter and skullbash. I included barrage to make a point, though.

My batter and skullbash are not optimized for DPS (arguably). I could be doing something like 30 DPS more if I was using a max damage club, something in the 180+ range. However I would also be around .5 seconds slower.

Recently I ran through the Xaanhal instance three times, using each attack exclusively for each run. I discovered that it takes me about 14 minutes to clear with batter, while both skullbash and barrage took me about 17 minutes.

This shows a couple of things:
The balance time on barrage and skullbash are nearly the same, yet barrage has significantly less DPS. However, it takes about the same amount of time to clear out an area because of the benefits that multihit gives you (or arguably the shortcomings of high damage, slow single hit attacks).

The DPS on batter and skullbash are similar, yet batter clears out the same area quite a bit faster. The only difference here being that batter takes 1 second less balance.

Multihit vs single hit and "wasted" damage, faster vs slower attacks:

It's been reiterated throughout the thread quite a few times that multihit is better, mostly for the crits. However the 'you get more crits' premise isn't really the reason. It's more that your damage gets spread out more evenly and not "wasted" as often.

When I get an annihilating crit with skullbash, I'm doing 2095 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 = 67040 damage. Those mobs in Xaanhal I'm hitting have something like 13000 health. I will instantly kill the first mob, dealing 13000 damage, and the overkill will instantly kill a second one, doing another 13000 damage. What this really means is my anni crit is not doing 67040 damage but 26000. And since my skullbash takes 3.54s to recover, I'm doing 26000 damage / 3.54s for 7344 DPS.

Getting an anni on my batter will do 1481 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 = 47392 damage. But the same rules apply, that damage is really limited to 26000, since that is how overkill works. However, batter is faster. 26000 damage / 2.52s = 10317 DPS. In other words, if I'm going to be getting anni (and even muti) crits, I'm much better off getting them using batter than skullbash.

The same thing pops up on the opposite side of the spectrum. If you've ever watched your basher bash, you'll notice that on occasion your attack will only do 100 damage. That's because the mob you hit only had 100 hp left, after the last time you hit it. I would much rather be doing that final 100 damage with a 2.52s balance attack than a 3.54s one.

The final thing to mention is when you get no crits at all. At 13000 hp, it would take me 7 skullbashes to kill a mob. At 3.54 seconds per skullbash, that's 24.78 seconds. Batter would take me 9 hits. At 2.52 seconds a hit, that's a total of 22.68 seconds.

You could probably nitpick at some of the points I made above but there's a reason why the general consensus is "multihit is better, faster attacks are better".

Damage modifiers:

The final thing worth going over is something that Stine has mentioned a couple times, which has to do with how damage is modified. Classes that wield weapons seem to have higher damage potential, with Templar topping the charts. This is likely because Templar can double up on +3 stat runes, cutting damage runes, and augments, and bash as dual wielders. They're also multhit, and somewhere between fast and average speed.

These damage mods are amplified because of how things like red orb/amulet and hunting tokens increase damage, too. As an example, when I'm not using red orb/amulet, my damage is only 1343. When I wear my red amulet, this goes up to 1410. When I activate red orb, the damage goes up to 1481 (the number I have above). 1343 x 1.05 = 1410. 1410 x 1.05 = 1481 (technically 1480.65, yay rounding). Damage modifiers are multiplied on top of each other, instead of taking some "base" damage value and adding that in.

In other words, if I was doing 1000 damage, and I bought a level 3 hunting token, my damage would go up to 1000 x 1.05 x 1.05 x 1.05, which is 1157.62. As opposed to what can be more common in games which is adding to that base number. 1000 + 3(1000 x 0.05) = 1150. Not a major difference, but it means that every way you can modify your damage will amplify all the other ways you can modify your damage. It seems that things like magic potence or knuckles don't keep up with the different way weapon attacks can be modified.

There's also some argument that this way of modifying damage can help boost high damage attacks like skullbash, but in my opinion the wasted damage and general slowness of these attacks (mentioned above) will make all this extra damage you get a lot less exciting.

Tiur mentioned in his post that they can see every bashing attack, and that the damage is more or less where they want it. I personally agree, which is rare for me to do when it comes to balancing in Aetolia. At most, there's argument for improving things like knuckles/potence/artifacts to help non-weapon classes keep up with weapon classes, and maybe some of the slower, weaker, single hit classes (holy shit bonedagger is garbage) could be caught up a bit.

Aeryx

Doing some testing today with Shapeshifter.

21 strength(with blessing), red orb, red amulet, 90% Madness = 692.83 dps - 918 cutting x2 @ 2.65s

I -assume- that beast_claws 3 and hunt_shapeshifter 3 would combine additively, with the change talked about in changelog 1842. That being the case, I could see the following numbers given the ones I've already recorded:

21 strength(with blessing), red orb, red amulet, 90% Madness, hunt_3 = 796.75 dps - 1055 cutting x2 / 2.65s

21 strength(with blessing), red orb, red amulet, 90% Madness, beast_claws 3 = 824.46 dps - 1092 cutting x2 / 2.65s

21 strength(with blessing), red orb, red amulet, 90% Madness, hunt_3 and beast_claws 3 = 928.39 dps - 1230 cutting x2 / 2.65

928 dps puts it about on par with the 931 I get in Templar currently. 2100 credit investment for Templar(l3 statboost, rune of cutting, hunt_templar 3). No strength artifacts, and capped at 21 strength.

Shapeshifter for me would require me to buy strength 2 to be capped on strength, but for this testing I used a bronze keystone to buy stats. Would therefor require 3650 credit investment for me. My guess is that without the extra point of strength I'd lose somewhere between 20-30 dps, as that's typically what seems to track with strength based classes. If I chose not to get strength 2, it'd be a 2400 credit investment.

A couple of notes:

Madness used to either not be like this, or be bugged, because I remember testing it with bashing back in the day and it only affected PVP damage then. It has apparently been fixed, and does affect PVE damage. When you're bashing as Shapeshifter, and you hit 100% madness, and get any kill on any mob, you automatically revert to 90% Madness. This is why I used 90% Madness as the 'baseline', and in my experience in testing, each 5% madness would give you 5 more dps.

Teani

I've started bashing a bit more seriously, and I have come across something of an issue with the the class and bashing. While I know that Shapeshifter is supposed to have the best DPS in the game, and that they pay for that in the Audit, I think some tweaks might be in order. When I gathered data earlier today, I realized that without the boosts I have in health, I could easily have been one-shot a number of times by mobs on Tcanna even with artifacts, and I doubt that's on par with what most classes have to deal with. Here's some data for you to look at. Please let me know if there's anything else I need to look at/add to make a comparison easier.

STATS
| Strength : 21(+7) Dexterity : 17(+4) Timeout : 60 minutes |
| Intelligence : 16(+4) Constitution : 21(+8) Statpack : Typical |

DPS
red amulet, red orb, 90+% Madness, hunt3, beastclaws3 = dps 944.9 (2504 at 2.65 sec)

AUDIT

+-- Resistances ------------------------+-- Avoidance -------------------------+
        Cutting |  15%   0%  44%    34%         Dodge Chance |  19%  21%
          Blunt |   5%   0%  44%    26%        Divert Chance |  32%  32%
          Magic |  45%  24%   0%    58%         Divert Block |  36%  36%
           Fire |  25%  24%   0%    43% +-- Miscellaneous ---------------------+
           Cold |  40%  24%   0%    54%     Experience Bonus | 303%
       Electric |  15%  24%   0%    35%         Crit. Chance | 61.23%
         Poison |  15%  24%   0%    35%             Celerity | 2 r/p.5s
        Psychic |   5%  24%   0%    28% +-- Drains ----------------------------+
   Asphyxiation |   5%  24%   0%    28%        Health: 0    Mana: 0
         Spirit |   5%   0%   0%     5%     Willpower: 0    Endurance: 23
         Shadow |  15%   0%   0%    15%

Current health (artied to the teeth, with strawberry chocolate): 9230

This was the kind of damage I took while bashing Tcanna:

             Average  Hits  Median   Min   Max
cutting:      3187    160   3141.5   582   5248
blunt:        4074     29   3907    1955   6680
asphyxiation: 3324     11   3292    2919   3781
psychic:      3292     11   2886    2498   4487

If this is the kind of damage most people see, I guess I am wrong in thinking it is a Class thing.
If they don't see this kind of damage, but think it is fair and reasonable, I would very much like to have this explained to me, because it doesn't seem fair to me. I am not saying it should be super easy, but maybe some tweaks should be made to remove the absolute tops?

Full data for the damage here

- Asphyx { "2919", "2943", "2950", "3171", "3171", "3292", "3373", "3482", "3725", "3759", "3781", }

- Cutting { "582", "582", "826", "842", "1062", "1066", "1311", "1344", "1360", "1443", "1466", "1557", "1642", "1648", "1662", "1686", "1725", "1761", "1788", "1811", "1837", "1920", "1923", "1977", "1985", "2007", "2097", "2118", "2133", "2144", "2147", "2169", "2171", "2198", "2232", "2369", "2406", "2490", "2536", "2560", "2578", "2580", "2586", "2591", "2612", "2614", "2622", "2626", "2626", "2635", "2647", "2650", "2655", "2667", "2679", "2688", "2706", "2726", "2735", "2738", "2759", "2798", "2812", "2816", "2818", "2823", "2831", "2837", "2865", "2884", "2903", "2914", "2964", "2934", "3011", "3043", "3044", "3062", "3064", "3116", "3167", "3174", "3175", "3190", "3203", "3219", "3224", "3241", "3270", "3275", "3294", "3316", "3333", "3374", "3403", "3405", "3454", "3489", "3586", "3603", "3682", "3734", "3740", "3760", "3775", "3778", "3778", "3857", "3940", "3956", "3964", "3973", "3976", "3979", "3995", "3997", "4044", "4049", "4066", "4108", "4157", "4166", "4178", "4180", "4187", "4197", "4207", "4244", "4288", "4310", "4369", "4385", "4406", "4424", "4540", "4552", "4583", "4583", "4589", "4620", "4669", "4687", "4730", "4740", "4777", "4809", "4858", "4870", "4877", "4897", "4935", "4950", "4974", "4984", "5016", "5058", "5077", "5139", "5201", "5248", }

- Blunt { "1955", "2342", "2405", "2480", "2935", "3038", "3149", "3225", "3253", "3568", "3568", "3677", "3684", "3883", "3907", "3961", "4025", "4185", "4310", "4455", "4471", "4638", "4709", "4849", "5882", "5955", "6283", "6669", "6680", }

- Psychic {"2460", "2498", "2747", "2765", "2833", "2886", "3118", "3390", "3501", "3688", "4487",}

Czcienn

Is that dps with caramel?

That damage you take is higher than what I see purely because your physical audit is so much lower.

Poison and psychic damage seems on par.

Tetchta

I haven't tested shifter at all yet so I don't really trust any analysis at all from anybody, but that DPS is pretty darn high; but ain't gonna matter if you're too dead to output it.

Def tempting me to get my hands on it now tho.

edit: honestly I think Shifter bashing might require its own thread entirely

Bulrok

When was it said Shifter was suppose to have the highest dps in the game? And by who?

Teani

It's without caramel, and yes, my point is definitely that it won't matter how much damage you put out if you're dead.

@Bulrok, no idea who. Just something I've heard I guess? If it's not, and it's comparable to other classes it shows even more that something needs to be done to balance the damage taken from npcs.

Aeryx

Shapeshifter likely has the highest unarmed DPS for bashing in the game, but still can't edge out classes with weapon runes.

Also, your audit seems pretty low. I know I use Werebear and have bracing, but that doesn't seem to math out to the difference still. Here's what I have, and specifically audit cutting and audit blunt. Most of the rest can be shored up with Miniskills and Enchants obviously, but the cutting and blunt seems way lower there.

+-- Resistances ------------------------+-- Avoidance -------------------------+
        Cutting |  39%   0%  44%    52%         Dodge Chance |  13%  16%
          Blunt |  29%   0%  44%    45%        Divert Chance |  29%  29%
          Magic |  49%  24%   0%    61%         Divert Block |  33%  33%
           Fire |  39%  24%   0%    54% +-- Miscellaneous ---------------------+
           Cold |  54%  24%   0%    65%     Experience Bonus | 108%
       Electric |  29%  24%   0%    46%         Crit. Chance | 54.23%
         Poison |  29%  24%   0%    46%             Celerity | 8 r/p.5s
        Psychic |  29%  24%   0%    46% +-- Drains ----------------------------+
   Asphyxiation |  19%  24%   0%    38%        Health: 0    Mana: 0
         Spirit |  29%   0%   0%    29%     Willpower: 0    Endurance: 20
         Shadow |  21%   0%   0%    21%

The following abilities and items are protecting you from Cutting damage:
Bracing: 10%
Energy Shell: 5%
Divine Favour: 9%
Warmth: 5%
Thickhide: 30%
Protection Artifact: 13%
Statpack Resistance: 10%

The following abilities and items are protecting you from Blunt damage:
Bracing: 10%
Energy Shell: 5%
Divine Favour: 9%
Warmth: 5%
Thickhide: 30%
Protection Artifact: 13%