Bashing Damage Numbers!

Haven

So is having 21 in your primary stat the expected/intended norm? Is that where everything is being balanced around?

Mjoll

When they touched bashing last they said 18.

Borminchia

Hi.

I put the numbers here.

Disclaimer: I don't actually know how the damage buff arties/items work. However when I removed/wore my red amulet, my damage went up by exactly 5%. I wouldn't know if any DR (diminishing returns) applies to having lots of these.

I am fairly certain there is DR with character stats and weapon stats. And I have no idea how these stats affect damage or speed since it might be different for each class (and probably each ability). So I just reported them and left them alone.

Some outliers I've noticed:
Tera are by far the slowest class at 4.06. Next slowest is Zealot/Indo at 3.26.
Wayfarer are fastest, with the next fastest being Stine's Templar at 2.32 (likely greatly affected by two +3 runes and 2x14 augments).

I'd like to note here that having 600 DPS at 4.06 seconds is significantly different than having 600 DPS at 2.5 seconds, or even 3.26 seconds. So I'm gonna be biased and ask if it's reasonable to reconsider this long bal time since I'm assuming they're related to changes made a weekish ago. Also adjusting flail damage/speed so we don't need two. Wayfarer, Templar, and Carni all have using multiple weapons factored into their class. Teradrim.. well I'm not even sure why they use flails, the skill is called Terramancy not flailomancy. Didn't they used to have croziers?

Speaking of Wayfexlar, the weapon wielding classes seem to be the highest since they have weapon runes/weapon specific arties which I was not really able to account for. They likely fall in line with most other classes when those are considered, which honestly seem like there is a fairly narrow range across the board. Whatever balancing happened last time around seems to have been pretty good and put most classes in a range where they're all pretty close to each other.

Czcienn

I don't disagree that tera is too slow but I am not quite sure what you mean by the other weapon wielding classes not needing multiple weapons. Most of them would probably benefit in pve from just using max damage weapons while in pvp it Is more determined by what you want to do. Generally, speed is better for limb and aff output. Because of diminishing returns and runes, people can go with something in the middle that is pretty damn close to minmaxed without needing to juggle two weapons, but 180 speed will always be 180 speed and their 150 speed weapons will always end up being slower, even if the difference is <0.1s.

Borminchia

Borminchia said:

Wayfarer, Templar, and Carni all have using multiple weapons factored into their class.

I'll clarify since maybe this isn't that clear. Wayfarer, Templar, and Carnifex all have class design and thematic purpose behind needing different weapons. Carni's choose between halberds and hammers, Wayfarer's switch axes to lob, chop, and embed. Templar are Templar.

Teradrim have no class design or theme that requires them to use multiple weapons. There's more argument that they shouldn't really need to use any weapons, hence the terramancy vs flailomancy joke. Teradrim are much more similar to Luminary or Shaman, neither of which concern themselves with using one weapon for PvE and the other for PvP. Sentinel is the third knight class, and they get to make their own weapon and effectively ignore weapon stats altogether. Not even Teradrim could do that, since before the recent change, they still had to go find a max damage flail.

The recent change was effectively a QoL nerf for a class that barely has anyone playing it and could probably use more appeal. Instead, I've been told Ehtias has abandoned the class to go Monk since a 4 second balance bashing attack is absurd, Iazamat is bashing as Carnifex and rather upset with his Tera hunt 2 arti, and the guild is so inactive that Ivoln left and a (different) Teradrim novice had to ask on Ivoln's congregation channel why he couldn't find any flails to buy. Good luck finding two with different stat sets.

Anyway, I feel like I'm simultaneously ranting too much and also not saying everything I need to say. Instead of letting me hijack it with Tera complains, maybe we could get more numbers up. The thread still needs Syssin, Scio, Archivists, Sentinel, and Praenomen numbers.

Stine

Did you account for the extra 15% that Mjoll and I were getting from hitting eld, @Borminchia? Numbers should have less outliers then.

One problem with straight comparing numbers is that some classes have way better tools to stay alive or to buff themselves. Ascendril may not have the biggest DPS, but they can hit multiple mobs in the same attack via prism and steamroll with high enough crit chance and that doesn't take into account the extra damage on crits from missiles. Wayfarers can constantly heal themselves through consuming fury and gain 1k hp every 2-3 hits. Carnifex have multiple tools to up their DPS as shown above. Etc.

I wish I could play around with Teradrim with my current investment to see what it looks like.

Borminchia

I did take those into account for you and Mjoll, and rolled them into your other straight damage buffs, along with things like red orb/ammy and hunt arties. The outliers are really with the stat runes and augments you two have, since it would require a fair bit of testing to understand how much each point of damage and speed increases damage/lowers balance time, as well as how DR comes into play as these numbers go up. For Mjoll, I actually decided to consider her damage buffs and average them out with her non-buffed damaged, since I had access to how those numbers play out. For Aeryx, I don't know how the disunion procs work, so I left those out. I put what I could in the notes section of the spreadsheet in regards to things like that.

There's definitely something to be said about other factors. Things like multi hit attacks vs single hit, slower balance times vs fast balance times. Raw audit numbers vs healing/survivability. Looking at DPS numbers in a vacuum doesn't mean as much, which is why I'm more curious about the general range that all the classes are falling into vs the idea of "Class x gets 50 more DPS than everyone else please nerf!".

Also since I don't think I've mentioned this anywhere and have mostly complained, I do want to say that Tera is probably a top tier bashing class, and it wouldn't surprise me if it has the best audit/damage reduction capabilities, while also being in the top half of the DPS range. But like we just mentioned, raw DPS/raw tank isn't everything, and most of my complaints are QoL associated. The long bal time has turned people off of using the class, and lowering it to 3.26-3.5 would still make it at least tied as the slowest class in the game. You could probably pair a 25 DPS decrease or so if you really wanted to, as long as we could just run around with one flail.

Aeryx

For the record...Disunion makes it so any time the Zealot is off balance or off equilibrium there's a chance at complete random during those times that you regain 0.60s balance or equilibrium. At a flat rate. I do not know the formula or proc rate per minute for that. I'm sure @Keroc does but am not sure if its something he would be willing to share for science.

Lin

Zealot
19 STR (+3 STR arti), no other damage-boosting factors

Zeal Flow (2x Pummel): 1300 (650 x 2) / 3.26 = 398.77 DPS

Zealot feels like a slower, squishier Monk. I have one more point of strength than I did when I tested Monk the other day, and I'm still doing less damage. And before anyone comes at me with "muh discharge", no, I'm sorry, Discharge is nowhere near as good as having Numbness/Transmute at your disposal. Very discouraging class to bash as.


Edit: So I'm gonna keep the above for posterity, but Aeryx pointed out I should also be using Mindset. Using the Star Mindset (boosts punching), I got this:

Zeal Flow (2x Pummel): 1430 (715 x 2) / 3.26 = 438.65 DPS

Not at all impressive, and still worse than Monk at 18 STR, but definitely an improvement.

Vorlus

Vampire

Frenzy speed 3.5s for PVE

19 Strength, no other factors.

1529/3.5 = 436.86 dps

Also decidedly mediocre compared to some here.

Savas

Syssin- 19 dex, arti fangs, red amulet

Camus: 1637 damage / 2.79s

= 586.7 DPS

Fezzix

Syssin, 21 dex, level 3 hunt, red orb, red amulet, fangs of corrosion, compendium damage bonus:

2368 damage per camus bite at 2.79 seconds balance (balance enhancement)

2368/2.79 = 848.75 dps.

Keep in mind this is a single attack, so syssin does not benefit from any multihits, which are an advantage for granting more critical hits. Camus venom is also an expendable resource which we need to replenish every so often.

This damage was not against eld, and my Talisman of Sapience didn't grant a damage bonus. Without the compendium 5% bonus, the dps is around 808.

Aeryx

Switched back to Templar. Thought I'd give my numbers for it here, to compare to the other Templar numbers listed.

2h Large Blade Templar, 21 strength, red amulet, red orb, level 2 rune, weapon stats: Damage: 181 (+12) Penetration: 105 (+12) Speed: 97 (+12)

(1135 x 2) + 100(sacrifice) = 2370

2370 / 3.87s = 612 dps

Robyn

Syssin, 20 dex, level 3 hunt, red orb, red amulet, fangs of corrosion

2178 per bite / 2.79 = 780.64 dps

I'll also point out that refilling camus is a lot more than 'periodically'. For example, starting from a full cache of 1500 refills of camus and health, once I run through Lair, Illdon, Spiral, Tiyen, Xaanhal, Nal'jin, and Dome I'll have roughly 300 of camus left in my FC while I'll still have 1300 health.

Xavin

Robyn said:

Syssin, 20 dex, level 3 hunt, red orb, red amulet, fangs of corrosion

2178 per bite / 2.79 = 780.64 dps

I'll also point out that refilling camus is a lot more than 'periodically'. For example, starting from a full cache of 1500 refills of camus and health, once I run through Lair, Illdon, Spiral, Tiyen, Xaanhal, Nal'jin, and Dome I'll have roughly 300 of camus left in my FC while I'll still have 1300 health.

Might be worthwhile for camus to be added directly to the class' skillset or to have bite replaced with some other dex-based attack for syssin bashing since no other class requires a consumable be used for every attack. Either way, I don't think anyone would reject a report like that.

Savas

I intend on submitting a camus classlead. While Syssin isn't a weak basher, it's also the only class that has a direct cost associated to using its optimal bashing skill (I'm not counting mana consumption as that is generally covered by moon+anabiotic afaik). If guilded Syssin didn't have the very generous guild shop at the moment, I'm pretty sure I'd never bash.

edit: it was also annoying as a novice having to search for venoms. Not the greatest new player experience imo.

Drystin

Xavin said:

Syssin, 20 dex, level 3 hunt, red orb, red amulet, fangs of corrosion 2178 per bite / 2.79 = 780.64 dps I'll also point out that refilling camus is a lot more than 'periodically'. For example, starting from a full cache of 1500 refills of camus and health, once I run through Lair, Illdon, Spiral, Tiyen, Xaanhal, Nal'jin, and Dome I'll have roughly 300 of camus left in my FC while I'll still have 1300 health.

Might be worthwhile for camus to be added directly to the class' skillset or to have bite replaced with some other dex-based attack for syssin bashing since no other class requires a consumable be used for every attack. Either way, I don't think anyone would reject a report like that.

My idea a while back for this was a class skill that you eventually would obtain in assassination that makes it so that sumac/camus wouldn't be consumed when used on NPCs. 

Stine

I could be remembering incorrectly but I believe before the change to make toxicology its own skill, Syssin could just secrete the Camus/sumac to bite with regardless of having it in cache or etc.

Robyn

You are remembering correctly @Stine . My request was to allow us to secrete just that one venom- camus. It's is the only venom that only syssin use that's main use is for bashing. But I was told that if we were allowed to secrete camus, as a 'penalty' our DPS would be reduced. Which makes absolutely no logical sense. Why bother spending money on fangs if they don't improve your damage? And as for the "Just use garrote" argument? Well, garrote dmg is strength-based. Bite dmg is dex based. And between the two with the highest amount of strength you can get and highest dex you can get? Bite dmg is still higher.

Stine

As someone who makes new weapons every 10 real life days, which includes paying for 28 augments at a minimum of 15k gold plus whatever the amount of steel is to get the proper numbers, I 100% commiserate with having to continually invest to get the max damage out.

Lin

I think this thread would benefit far more from people posting regular figures without the Whale Factor - no stat boosts, no hunting boons, no absurdly optimized weapons.

How do we know what is a reasonable, comparable figure and what has been blown out of proportion because of unchecked artifact scaling?

Mjoll

18 str, no artifacts, red orb(because you can't relax it) and hunt3 because it's not a worn power and I can't get rid of it
[168/71/102] hammer
803*2@2.83
567 dps

Ehtias

@Borminchia Since I was mentioned, I haven't given up Teradrim just bashing on it is miserable now so I bash on monk.

Didi

happy hunting

Bulrok

Lin said:

I think this thread would benefit far more from people posting regular figures without the Whale Factor - no stat boosts, no hunting boons, no absurdly optimized weapons.

How do we know what is a reasonable, comparable figure and what has been blown out of proportion because of unchecked artifact scaling?

@Keroc You mind chiming in and posting numbers since you're one of the few amount of people able to produce numbers with static stats?

The rest of us have too many things interfering, from hunting skill level (and potential scaling) to Skill level (if it effects it at all for X class) to artifacts, so all of our numbers are going to be wildly different.

Tiur

Okay! I get to chime in

So, we do have a command that tracks every hit in PvE for comparison against what we designed. No class shows as outside the range we designed:

DPS is balanced around a 16 in your main stat, with your main skill. For classes that have options, both are aimed at the same number, unless one is meant to be inferior (though that's being phased out). Everything else is scaled similarly across the board. The highest DPS design is 408, and the lowest is 356. So the biggest deviation is 52/s.

Xavin

@Tiur What's the current median and mean, and are those numbers that are firm?

Vorlus

@Tiur
Do you take into account resilience/tanking/healing abilities of each class when it comes to balancing bashing?

Sanir

Lots of artied/statted people posting. Gonna post it from a more newbie-ish perspective... This is all with just a red amulet and red orb.

16 Intelligence - Shaman Lightning
1389 / 3.5s = 396.8 dps.
-with purple amulet/silver crown
1389 / 3.26s = 426 dps
-with crown + enhancement
1389 / 2.97 = 467.7 dps

16 Intelligence - Boosted Lightning
1529 / 3.5s = 436.8 dps.
-with purple amulet/silver crown
1529 / 3.26s = 469 dps.
-with crown + enhancement
1529 / 2.97 = 514.9 dps.

Will havve 17 int soon enough, but I don't suspect it'll be much of an increase! Might save for the hunt artifact.

Aeryx

I switched back to Templar recently and spent some money/bound credits. So, some new numbers. This is pretty much the peak, I think, of what you can hit with as a 2h blade Templar.

Red orb, red amulet, 21 strength, level 3 hunt boon, rune of cutting, level 3 statboost rune, Sacrifice Empower, Damage: 180 (+18) Penetration: 91 (+18) Speed: 132 (+18) 2h blade.

1412 x 2 @ 3.10s: 910 dps