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Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE
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Peron is creamy with an exotic-fruit tang on the aftertaste.
Belarit is kinda sweet and kinda spicy.
Don't ask me how I know these.
IRE as a whole has been making a push towards newbie-friendly, because MUDs are something of a dying breed. Novice retention is important to keep an influx of new blood into the game, something I think we can all agree on. As such, the games have become much more streamlined. There have been many quality of life changes that improve the playing experience of even veteran players, for which I am grateful; progress and improvements are always nice, and I'm glad that we have coders/admin who are able and willing to put forth the work.
There has been a damaging shift as well. I tried to sort of figure out how to put this in the Oleis AMA thread, but apparently that didn't come across quite like I wanted it to - to be blunt, and with all due respect, this game has no teeth. This game has no struggle. And this game has absolutely zero point. You cannot win at any point in this game, because they have kiddie-proofed it to the point that you cannot lose. To clarify, my character can be killed. I don't care, and most people don't care, that they die. Death is a minute or two of afk, with nothing else lost. There is nothing else you can do to me if you dislike me. You 'can' emote at me, or yell at me, but neither of those things are satisfying, and neither of those things will result in a win or a loss - think to yourself how many times you've satisfyingly won an argument over the internet. Now count how many times it devolves into screaming back and forth 'YUH HUH' and 'NUH UH'. I would imagine the second number is much higher, and it is the same here as well. The simple fact of the matter is, there's no meaningful way for a player to beat another, save in the most artificial constructs possible, such as the Delosian Duel (where the admin have to start it and reward someone with an item that no one else has). There is no organic conflict, there is no organic mechanism for doing anything to elevate yourself over another player.
Even pvp, one of the biggest draws of IRE, is flat - it's just code versus code, and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves. If you don't have an AI, you won't win. And when AIs get sufficiently advanced and identify the 'magic bullet' for each fight, it will come down to a ping contest, or a matter of class matchup and luck. Neither of which is a particularly compelling thing, for me. I don't care who lags more, or which class has the edge on another - I miss the days when I was an awful fighter and pvp actually gave me an adrenaline rush, back when I fought without so much as an auto-raze script and that was actually viable. But, in the spirit of making combat more accessible, we've had an influx of things that render the older, harder, more real means of pvp entirely unfeasable, and there's really no going back now.
So without pvp, without any meaningful combat/war system (though I know one is currently in the works), we're left with events as the only way things change. Events are limited too, locked down. An organization cannot leave their city - no Sciomancer guild in Bloodloch, academies/city choice restricted based on guild, class picks cut in half by tethers. Nothing player-run can truly change, without colossal effort. The last time anything really changed on player initiative on any major scale was the re-branding of Spinesreach into the Republic (or maybe the Syssin into the Syndicate, I forget which order that occurred in). No matter what happens however, the Sciomancers will remain in spinesreach. The guilds are locked to a city, and more or less at their mercy due to guards/enemy statuses. Orders have little to no impact on cities either, and cities don't even influence the world around them that much. Maybe when factions come out, there'll be a slight influx in the ability to change the world, but I'm not overly optimistic about that either.
Divine events are the last stand, of sorts- though I suppose it would be more accurate to call them admin events. Especially lately, it feels to me that these are scripted from A to B regardless of what players do/want to do/say. They are cut scenes, progressing the story towards some unknown point in the future. I've attempted to run player events to upset things, change things, or even just get something interesting and new happening - the Abyss event that occurred awhile back stands out the most, to me. For those who don't know, the Carnifex spent somewhere in the neighborhood of a RL month (likely more) planning an assault on Dhar's realm, the Abyss. We were encouraged on by admin, gods giving us interesting items/help/what have you. Everything we got indicated this would work, this would be something interesting - instead, when it was finally time for the event, the portal fizzled and some monster came out. We bashed it for awhile until a room echo told us we killed it, then we got honors lines and went home. Point A, Point B. The end, no matter what. I'd point to Neventesh, raiding BL after Enorian didn't manage it successfully. To whatever that dragon's name was. To the Shadow Plague Saga, to every major event I've been involved in, there has been a conclusion written for it since before it properly began. I can't think of a single time I feel like I actually contributed in a meaningful way to the conclusion/end result, and that's something I dislike. I want to help tell a story, not have a story told to me while I run around in the background.
I know I'm complaining a lot, and this is very long, but I'm not quite done yet. It isn't that I'm a bitter player who hates the admin and wants to raise a fuss. I wish I could enjoy the game. I wish I could find a niche where I fit in that doesn't feel artificial; but when the only things that change are surface-level tweaks driven entirely by players, without them having the ability to meaningfully influence the game? It's frustrating, it feels fake, cheesy, forced. There's no way an org can ever lose, so there's no way an org can ever win. Our padded text-world has tape over all the edges, so we don't accidentally hurt ourselves/upset someone else by beating them - no war system because it was griefy/unfun, Order Wars are discouraged by forum thread after forum thread because they're unfun, pvp nothing more than code vs code, and now guilds are locked down and REQUIRED to have a simple set of requirements to allow anyone to join and get class. Events are flat-feeling, with no player input changing the world in a unique way; turn on your basher and wait for the admin to tell you you've won, is how it tends to feel. Accessibility all around - but the game has gone too far. I recognize I am currently a minority. I enjoy challenges, I like struggling. And a loss can be more fun to play out than a win. And it's not entirely fair to the game, or the admin, to make these comparisons or complaints. As a business, IRE's goal is to make a profit and get players to invest money into the game. If it wasn't a safe investment, people would make less overall. The admin want players to be happy, and people tend to get unhappy when they lose, so taking the teeth out of losing seems to be a good way to keep people involved. And this game can never be what I miss so much, Atonement - it has too many players, the codebase/level of polish is prohibitive to the quick sort of plot changes that could be made, and a few other key differences that have more to do with game design than my current focus.
This was originally written as a brainstorm, but now that I've written it I've decided to post it- to whoever managed to wade through all that writing, thanks for hearing me out. To the rest who want a tl;dr: I miss feeling challenged, I miss feeling like I was a part of the game world, and like I could make a meaningful difference. I miss being able to win, and being able to lose and it actually sting. I'm taking something of a break, and it might be a permanent one - I'm just not having fun any more. I gave all my alts up a week or two ago, and I'm definitely dropping way down with online time on Toz, so I wanted to say goodbye while people actually vaguely remember who I am.
So, Sir, I applaud your honesty and thank you for saying that for those of us that couldn't figure out a way to word it without coming across as whiny no matter how you look at it. It was well said.
Thank you for writing that, Toz. You've given me a lot to think about.
i am rapture coder
Thank you for articulating what I thought. It pretty much summarizes in full why I'm following in your footsteps.
Thanks @Toz. Your post so perfectly says what I have been too frustrated to adequately express.
I remember, involve me and I
learn.
-Benjamin Franklin
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(The Front Line): Daskalos says, "<-- artifacts."
I personally make every effort to present nonlinear and adaptive events to the best of my ability. To my knowledge, so do all the other volunteers. It's understandable that from your perspective an event that doesn't meet your expectations is railroaded, but every major world event I've conducted or taken part in the past year has been adaptive. Steelhew and the entire war system resulting from it was unplanned and came about in response to the way the cities were reacting to events. Baelak Shipbreaker was largely an effort at throwing a threat at the continent and seeing what you did. Even Nesventesh and the situation on Ulangi at the moment are dependant on what the players do in response to them.
The Abyss event you have referred to was a patch-over by myself when the original volunteer was unable to complete it; it was a very rushed job and I apologise for what was essentially a bandaid over several glaring potential faults. Even that, though, involved items that were created due to in-character player input.
I suppose what I'm trying to express is that it's unfortunate that you feel that events are linear, but that your perspective is quite limited and your assessment is based on quite a few misconceptions about what goes on behind the scenes.
A lot of the people I surround myself with tell me they're not having fun anymore, they don't feel like logging in, and from a handful of my guildmates, the only interesting thing to them right now is the Daru and some small rp circles/relationships. There isn't even that much going on with us right now, so I'm pushing to change that with my limited schedule. I've certainly felt this way myself a number of times. I just end up focusing on what I can do to improve it from my side of things, at least, for other people.
I've been with Aetolia for a long time. It's not the same anymore, that much is certain.. It's not a bad change, necessarily, in a lot of ways. But the more mechanical you make it the less organic it'll be, and that was always the drawing point of the game for me. It was a world unexplored, wonderous and full of unpredictable potential with plenty of mystery left.
It could also just be that many of us have grown up with the game, and what we weren't aware of as much before, while we're now acutely so - we've built up expectations or standards over the time we've been here, and we don't adapt well to the changes that interrupt our experience and environment because it's unlikely we'll ever get that back, once we move past a certain point. But we crave it, so it boils down to a cycle of recurring disappointment and brief moments of some glimmer.
So I guess I end up wondering what keeps everyone else playing the game - because maybe that's the answer to it, more than focusing why we feel like we don't want to anymore.
@Maghak, I am glad to know that most events are not set in stone. Sadly, the game is full of things that make us, the supporters of Aetolia, feel like captives. A good example is the Sciomancer guild. As has been pointed out numerous times before, it is a Bloodloch Guild stuck in Spinesreach. Even before we were the Sciomancers, the Magi guild tried and tried to get moved to Bloodloch, always being told 'Not a chance.' Even attempts to have our newbs given the option of joining Loch from the intro have been denied. This is only a single example, and there may well be Great and Glorious reasons why our guild is stuck where we do not want it to be.... But my point is, surely you can see how such things encourage the notion that we are, as @Toz said, having a story told to us.
@Toz - yeah, I get it.
@Maghak - I can't speak for Toz, but… if we underestimate what it takes to do work behind the scenes, well… that's unfortunate, but that doesn't at all address the real meat and potatoes of Toz' post. To use an analogy… Imagine you were invited to go swimming at the beach by a few friends. You pack things up for the day, get in the car, and drive out to meet them, but when you get there, you find an over-crowded kiddie pool where the ocean should be.
It does not matter how much work went into building the kiddie pool, how much work goes into maintaining the kiddie pool, or how many staff members are supervising the kiddie pool, ready to answer questions for you. The water is about ankle deep and someone else has already taken a leak in it.
We understand that you are reluctant to throw new players into the ocean. However, without the fear of drowning, the game just isn't fun for those of is who know how to swim, and without an invested player base, new players aren't going to stick around no matter how easy you make things for them. Between Achaea, Lusternia, and Aetolia I've been running with IRE for eleven years, and I wouldn't have logged in more than once if the first person in Achaea I talked to wasn't totally into their guild and scheming about something or another. And they made me WORK for stuff I wanted.
People don't value things that are handed to them. They value things they have to work for a little bit - if something takes a little bit of effort, they tend to fight tooth and nail to keep it.
Other IREs manage the conflict stuff ok:
Achaea is IRE's biggest game, and it's full of raids and conflict and stuff, because people are treated like adults that can handle being raided and requirements that make them think a little. In Lusternia, conflict is necessary for org commodities and political away, so there's lots of fighting over villages and things, plus people raid for kicks and lore because every org has a diametric opposite.
Neither of these games 'dumb things down' for new players. They trust the people who can already swim in the ocean to help people on the beach get used to the water. If you guys aren't comfortable with letting us be the life guards -
Will you at least give us a bigger pool? Some more elbow room? The most recent event I remember was one where I watched 4 or 5 gods fight in silence while some mortal onlookers insulted one another and made impotent emote attacks and died and then Iosyne and Maghak went off to lick their wounds. I was a spectator. I understand a lot goes on behind the scenes. But it doesn't matter how much goes on behind the scenes if the result is a game that's not fun to play.
- please excuse my typos while I'm posting from a cell phone.
Those of us, rather than those of is - and political sway, not political away.
Us.
It's one thing to go 'oh man I miss the glory days when things were exciting and it was all a RUSH', but for me? I was awfully goddamn 14 at the time. Of course it was a rush! Everything was new and exciting, and I also thought Dragon Ball Z was the best thing ever and I watched every single episode with rapt attention. I've grown up, my tastes have changed. The game means something different to me now. It is possible to outgrow a thing you enjoy, and I think people who've been playing it for eight years or whatever ought to get a little metacognitive about this while they're composing their posts about how Aetolia sucks these days and it's all the fault of the changes that have gone in.
In Aetolia, do I PK, or ask my friends to code me a system so I can obliterate the competition, no...the rush isnt there for me, if anything I get nervous doing it now because I lost alot of people I enjoyed talking to that I hurt on an OOC level with PK griefing. Things do change, they always kinda do...you settle and find the things you do enjoy and adapt, its a wonderful skill of a human being...if it is not what you are looking for, perhaps there is something else you do not know of yet that can satisfy your gaming needs.
I agree that PK has a mechanical feel to it that I have not really experienced in any other game, whether other muds or regular computer games. I've played two non-IRE muds extensively, and in both PK was the main appeal to the majority of each game's respective playerbase. While basics of combat were simple, things like area layout, equipment, racial/clan bonuses and so on and so forth brought a lot of complexity. IRE combat demands so much in terms of scripting and coding that I've stopped participating in it altogether, both in Aetolia and in Achaea. Now, pitting cities against each other with the Ylem extraction was a great way to defeat the other side. When that system came out, I could participate in something meaningful and enjoyable. These days, lesser combat is one of the few times that I still participate in conflict. Holy wars always seemed to me like a way to prove your devotion to your particular Deity of choice, but I've heard so many complaints about it on the forums that I sometimes wonder if it should just be altogether disabled. It is a shame, really, because orders are generally speaking made up of experienced players with firm beliefs -- this seems like the perfect foundation for interesting, small-scale conflict. Ciem used to cause a lot of group combat as well. It operates exactly the same today as it did five years ago and yet people rarely go there. I remember when there used to be at least 3-4 raids a month, most of which involved multiple people from each side. There are outlets for conflict, but these days it seems the opposition is either non-existent or overwhelming.
Anyway. I am not really sure how many of you participated in the battle against Grumagh, but that was an event that was really exciting and awesome because it eschewed traditional boss-slaying. The participants had to keep him down with chains and had to interact with these chains with simple commands to avoid him breaking free and killing everyone. It was one of the most thrilling, adrenaline-pumping events I've enjoyed in my mudding career, and I can only hope there will be more things like this in the future.
So. The main draw for me personally, is that Aetolia as a world is the most free and open role-playing setting I've found. Some people make time fly by. Just try roleplaying with someone like @Serrice, @Rashar, or @Ezalor. I'm still frustrated with a lot of things - in particular, I really think the admin to playerbase communication is somewhat unsatisfactory (although, I must say that @Oleis is making me more optimistic in this regard) - but most of my disillusionment comes from myself and other players, not the setting that the game has to offer. OOC webs and clans make it abdundantly clear that I'm part of a chat room and not an ongoing story. I've stopped investing energy in involving and engaging other characters with my personal doings. I often complain, but rarely contribute with solutions (anyone who listened to me talking about vampire houses and the Dominion would know). I want a lot of the same things as Toz wants. I want to be able to influence things in a meaningful way. I want to log in and be able to feel like if I invest a number of hours, I will be able to push an agenda, or strengthen my guild's/city's position, or something like that. The recent Shadow Essence event really appealed to me initially, because I was doing something that had a tangible affect on the environment (the progress bar in the essencecap). I knew I was working towards an end. I didn't mind that the outcome was not something that we had not anticipated. In fact, I personally think it made the event even more exciting (although I realize this did not appeal to everyone that participated).
I think @Toz's post was great. It vocalized a lot of things I've been thinking about lately. Essentially, I just have a hard time immersing myself in the game. I don't know. I can't seem to take it very seriously anymore.
EDIT:
I can't grammar or type so had to fix some stuff.
Is it quieter, and sometimes more boring? Yeah. But for me, it's maybe a little more immersive. Plus, I realized that listening to people OOCly justify things that were truly detrimental to other people's gameplay was a bigger source of frustration than anything else.
I don't participate in those massive chatterbox webs. Most of the people I have any need to talk to oocly I have on Skype or AIM, and it's a little easier to keep that separate. Except a few, anyway. (Peer @alexina) And even that number is pretty low anymore, at least of the ones I actually chat with.
I like PK. I do. But for me, RP is better. I don't like scripting or coding for PK (or in general) so I don't dig into it like some of you. Can't really relate to those woes.
I think it's possible to make an impact here. If you have the right support upstairs. Hell, I have made ripples and I've been here for not nearly as long as most of you. I think the admin does a good job with what they have, and with what they're intending for the game. Save for one major, glaring fault (in my opinion, though agreed on by quite a few) I don't know what would be different/better that wouldn't just cause bitching from another section of the population.
I don't know. I like this game. It does what it does well, and most of my issue comes from a very small section of people, both downstairs and upstairs. I removed myself from it despite the fun I was having as Vanguard, because I don't want Aetolia to be a thing that causes frustration and even stress. Unfortunately, the influence of those people followed and it's really resulted in me having no desire to log on for the last few days. Maybe I'll get over it, or maybe I'll just RP with the 2 or 3 people I seem to lately via another method. Who knows.
That being said, I still think there is a great deal to be had in Aetolia. If you're on one half of the game, at least, the sky is really the limit to what you can do. Not all RP has to be you sitting around having conversations about something something light / lore / whatever other ideal you're grabbing at. Go out and find some people, and have an adventure! Save the world, and who cares if nobody else knows it? It won't happen at the 4C, or the Inner Gate. And sure, it's better with support from someone upstairs. But that isn't required.
There's a whole world out there, for those of you interested in something besides staring at hieroglyphs and typing kill. Nerds.
And none of it matters.
Time and again I've watched as event after event follows an easy, predictable fashion - either Enorian and the life side are attacked, or we attempt to do something and it blows up in our face. The raid on Bloodloch that @Toz brought up I lead, and as players, we had to know in the back of our head they wouldn't let us drop Moghedu on top of Bloodloch, but we tried anyways. (FYI: The mobs were always going to help, they had one gate, we had the other. We were simply s'posed to be a distraction). Once the event was over, the mhun forgot about Enorian helping them and started killing our allies and basically turned on us, because hey, why not? I've mostly enjoyed my time in Aetolia, and have made some friends along the way, but I've hit a point where there is nothing left for me to do.
-
City leadership? Done.
Guild leadership? Done.
Order Leaderhip? Done for 3 different orders.
Minister? At some point I've held them all.
PK? Did that years ago, and as Toz said, it's now about who's script is better and since you can buy offenses from people, it doesn't even have to be your script.
Bashing? I'm at a ridiculously high level.
It's now even at a point where there is nothing left for me to spend -money- on. I'd have to login to be sure (and I'm not doing that) but there is something like 4000 credits sitting on Daskalos, along with 2 pet tokens and a house deed. I already own -4- houses, why do I need a fifth?
There's no endgame, and quite frankly, we're treading water. New shiny ornaments may distract us from time to time, but often those end as well.
I spent literal years of my life trying to make the game as enjoyable for the other players in my guilds and cities as I could. I wasn't always successful, and sometimes I was a real ass, but my intentions were in the right place. I have done things due to nudgings by the divine that weren't always popular to help them accomplish goals, but I did them. (You guys really didn't think Unity in Life was my idea, did you? It worked because the Orders signed on first... as directed by their gods
At some point, you realize it's all pointless. Death, PK, bashing, it's all pointless. You can be the best in the game at combat and it won't matter. You can be the worst at it and it doesn't matter.
I'm tired of treading water and feeling as if the work I have done is pointless. I'm tired of feeling as if I'll be left to clean up the next cookie cutter event when the players feel disenfranchised again because it either a) blew up in our face or b) we're playing defensive.
I'm tired of playing a game that promotes the largest side, gives them mechanical benefits (double credits for houses\guilds), and basically defends the favoritism as 'well, they're the largest faction in the game'. You created the faction that size through your actions.
Most of you will probably rejoice, but I'm done. I have hit a point where my frustration means I don't care anymore. Nothing I do matters, and I'm tired of the empty promises that things will change. I'm tired of trying to retain players through sheer force of will when they have felt as I do now. I'm tired of being lied to and used when it suits people and demoralized when it doesn't, by players and admin alike. Look at the bright side, there will be a Delos shop opening as soon as the taxes go unpaid and it gets closed, unless the god's player I was holding it for decides to quit playing and takes it back. Whoops.
Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
"If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."
As an older player I spent a little while wondering if any ingredient of old Aetolia made it more appealing than the new because we weren't all diehards looking for a challenge. One reason in particular stuck out. Alignment used to be far more ambiguous. Things were less restrictive and I remember a time when you didn't know exactly who your allies were. As a result of that, conflict arose far more naturally, and not in the sterile manner Toz suggests.
As players were not railroaded into the light or dark setting there would be an ambiguous Daru that cared solely for purity and light, not the devotion landmarks that were so important to Paladins and Luminaries. You'd have Druids who hated civilization completely and saw Enorian as a colonial power and would side against it. I remember way back when taking a harsher Haern RP and not joining Duiran because Eleusis wasn't part of the "cycle," it was artificial and preserved.
Back in those days, Ashtan and Spinesreach both housed people that didn't quite fit the cities with more guilds. It made them an x - factor when it came to larger conflict. They were not a threat to Enorian or Bloodloch on their own but they could pick sides and alter the balance. Having those neutral cities also allowed Enorian (earlier Shallam) to go through shifts like the Sentaari and Mages leaving as they had a place to go.
These days you're forced to co-operate along tethers but when you think about it, why should you all get along? Certain guilds will naturally ally along common lines but ultimately the organizations have different philosophies, they're not identical. They will clash over certain things. You see it in the real world with different offshoots of the same religion. These days the only internal conflict that happens is just a clashing of player personalities. You can't drive an organization in a more radical or conservative direction that clashes with your allies as it wont go anywhere. The Sciomancers can't become Liches and run off to Bloodloch as Toz stated.
Battlelines have been firmly drawn in the sand, and in order to accommodate it, the grey that naturally occurs due to different philosophies gets pushed aside. The other problem with light / dark is that you're forcing two sides to butt heads and when sides are uneven like dark is dominant, people stop caring. In a more ambiguous world, there is internal as well as external conflict and Forestals and Enorianites will squabble, but ultimately band together and a neutral city may choose it's in their best interest to help.
If you try playing my version of Aetolia, where you sleep or work through all the events, you tend to be forced to just appreciate what you get. I'm not that worried about more events or more lore or more this or that, I find myself being pretty bad at soaking it in. I play more for the people I guess. As much as I channel boisterousness and effusiveness I tend to be shy about those sorts of things a lot of the time.
I like the version of aetolia with slightly less concequences, plenty of stuff being dumbed down has made for a much more fun and nicer and less chore-y game. I would love more things to "do" ala leylines and things like ciem or other smaller scale combat events (hunting grounds, fracture, whichever). It would be nice for there to be more routine sorts of conflicts, I miss things like capture the flag events and such. IT does suck when one side continues to dominate, but I miss them anyways!
I don't know. I don't feel so bad about combat or tethers or things, I sure think some things could be better, but I'm still pretty happy anyways.
I agree combat balance and the tendency towards perfect routes and AIs is an issue, and it's definitely one that's in the liaison hivemind. The medium is so ever-evolving that it's pretty definitive to say it's not at an endpoint, or anywhere near it.
I don't know that I have a cohesive thought here. If you're not having fun there's no reason to be playing though!
I also miss out on all the big events because of my time zone. I don't like it, I Think there should be at least one admin that's not american, or with a different time Schedule, who could give a Little excitement to us europeans as well, but I have come to accept that's not the case. That's something I've felt for years now. When I started playing, I didn't care much about sleep and would mess up my day, just to be around during events, but I can't do that anymore.
I try to find enjoyment on my characters, but sometimes it's difficult and Everything feels stagnant. There are things you can do to make things more fun for yourself, like creating new alts or guildhopping, but you can only do so much. I've Heard several times that I just need to get engaged in things and talk to more people and get out there, but that's not Always so easy. I try my best and yes, I could stop playing alltogether, but I don't want to do that. Aetolia is still my hideaway, and a Place I enjoy, at least in some aspects.
Anywho, rage at there being 20+ leylines and I can't find them! I need to figure out what areas I'm not checking. Also rage at the plantation maze. That Place is horrid!
Pretty sure something is legit wrong