Abhorash

Ezalor

Ezalor will be a strong, independent Azudim man who don't need no House.

Sarita

This coming from a guy whose house is going to be just fine.

Aldric

Haedyn said:

Haven said:

My only concern is sustainability. As you mentioned, people flock to the shiny new toys typically. I'd hate to see all 5 go strong and then later see 1 virtually collapse once the paint dries.

Oh, I completely agree. The problem now is that the race is so close that Houses who have inflated their numbers by waking up inactive alts and speed-embracing could very well leapfrog over Houses that have a truly active membership. This would result in the truly active Houses being dissolved and the surviving Houses potentially just sinking right back into inactivity after the trial is over. 

This is the part that's concerned me the most, really. I'm thankful that this is more a temporary thing until the other houses are destroyed, because I don't really believe that this system is doing anything to encourage kosher number maintenance.

People are getting embraced a day after they join, some get housefavors with the reason being, "Helping us pass <insert house here>." I don't know, I've just been finding myself side-eyeing the whole thing. I understand that people put a lot of time and effort into making their house what it is now, and of course they don't want to see that work thrown away, but I wouldn't really by any means say that this system is providing truly accurate results of activity.

Sarita

Erzsebet said:

ETA: I strongly agree with the keeping five idea, thing. Especially since the last three swap places every third hour or so, so it's more a sort of terrible game of russian roulette, about  who's holding the fifth spot when the gun goes off at year end instead of which house is really more active than the others.

I can't hit enough agree or like buttons for this. I've also noticed over the past few days the possibility that different houses have members who are more active during certain times of the day, maybe because more are in certain time zones than others. The times of the day when a house leader can be active will highly impact how quickly a house is gaining points, and I thought it really would be harsh for a house to lose just because the end of the year falls at a time when they aren't at their highest activity, or because another house is hitting its peak for those last few hours.

Azrael

Aldric said:

People are getting embraced a day after they join, some get housefavors with the reason being, "Helping us pass <insert house here>." I don't know, I've just been finding myself side-eyeing the whole thing. I understand that people put a lot of time and effort into making their house what it is now, and of course they don't want to see that work thrown away, but I wouldn't really by any means say that this system is providing truly accurate results of activity.

That mess is just bad form, at this point I'm glad that Az is houseless so that he doesn't have to put up with the nonsense.

Ezalor

Yeah it's an idea Haedyn and I have been talking about for the last few days. And don't get me wrong, D'baen is pretty safe IMO especially as we have a few more Thralls who are on the verge of getting Embraced not adding to our score just yet.

But looking at things, it really is a game of Russian roulette at this point, as Erz said. Nebre'seir, Ve'kahi, and Bahir'an are all so close that it feels like it will come down to more timing/luck than anything else. The Houses that have no chance have already all been dissolved, it's pretty clear that the remaining ones are all active and very much alive.

I think the intent of this dissolving stuff has already been reached; 4 instead of 5 is just a number! I see no reason 5 Houses can't exist prosperously.

And...if you really want to curb the metagaming way to raise points, they should have made it so only people who have been in the House at least 2-3 RL weeks contribute to points. Boom.

Aldric

I personally believe that if the administration is absolutely set on keeping only 4 houses, we should postpone deletion of the last house (besides Dar'sroth obviously) for maybe a few RL months. Let people adjust to this dominion idea, let their RP arcs go on with what Abhorash has created, and let people get properly situated.

Following this, I'd pick one IG year at random a few RL months later, unannounced, and use the tophouses score to delete the least active of them like we're doing now. A few months from now people will be playing as they normally do, and the numbers may be a bit more accurate of a representation of the activity in the house. If one IG year is too little, maybe average them over 3-4 or so, then go from there. 

Right now there are people doing underhanded things to keep their score up, and promoting interactions amongst house members just for the sake of bumping the score up more. If we're brought down to 4 houses right away, that stuff will stop and people will take up their normal routines right away. If; however, there's still the threat by Abhorash of, "I can and will still destroy one of your houses if you don't keep your act together," then maybe, possibly people will be more likely to continue genuinely taking steps in the right direction to make the place more fun rather than doing it just for the score.

Haedyn

Aldric said:

...

Following this, I'd pick one IG year at random a few RL months later, unannounced, and use the tophouses score to delete the least active of them like we're doing now. A few months from now people will be playing as they normally do, and the numbers may be a bit more accurate of a representation of the activity in the house. If one IG year is too little, maybe average them over 3-4 or so, then go from there. 

...

I get the spirit of your suggestion here but I am going to have to disagree on the grounds that this whole ordeal is just too bloody stressful for the org leaders to have it drag on and on. I know for a fact that a number of the House leaders are basically sleeping in two hour stints because HL contribution to TOPHOUSES is so high. I understand the reasoning behind the administration's choice to reduce the number of Houses and I agree with it. That said, the Houses that were truly dead are already gone or are on the way out (Dars'roth). Given that Aetolia is, in fact, a game, and therefore should be enjoyable, this really needs to stop at some point in the near future or all of your players in House leadership positions are just going to burn out and stop playing. I know that sounds dramatic, but it really is a fairly accurate depiction of reality for those of us who think our org could be on the chopping block.

Alastair

I've been monitoring those scores like a hawk and even made a few spreadsheet over the course of 15 minute and 1 hour intervals... definitely whack. I bashed for almost 24 hours straight, and we didn't gain points for shit in Ve'kahi until HL was logged in.

Ezalor

Yeah, I've been planning and plotting and calculating and stressing all day erryday. I can't imagine what the people in Nebre'seir, Ve'kahi, and Bahir'an are going through . 

I'm of the opinion that the margins are so close it is going to end up being who is more willing to compromise integrity to metagame an advantage that wins out. And that sucks!

Erzsebet

As one of said house leaders, I've been sleeping every third day, because I nearly have a damn panic attack when I log out at third and wake up four hours later, 100 behind the house in fourth and have to scramble to get caught up again. I've been playing 145 hours a week--normally my playtime is around 120, and about 98% of that is active time.

I hate bashing. So much. But if I'm not bashing, or at least beetling near-constantly, we can't keep up. And I mean me, personally. Alastair's been bashing for endgame, I know a few other people have been bashing a fair bit, too. But even if all of them bash, if I'm not bashing--if I decide I want to, gods forbid, craft or something, Ve'kahi can't keep up with the other numbers of houses whose houseleaders -are-. I feel like I can't really stop to RP with anyone who isn't Ve'kahi, unless they're a Vampire and contributing to another house--and only in the latter instance, because it stops THEM from bashing and contributing to the points in that more effective way.

I agree that the favours and couple-days embracing are ridiculous, sketchy, whatever but really, the name of the game is survival, and if that's what we have to do to keep up, when we've been one of the more active houses for a long time, then that's what we have to do. Neither I nor Erz really -likes- it, just like neither of us really liked being told having living would screw us, but that's the reality, and if we have to do it to survive, then so be it.

Ezalor

Actually, I've found bashing doesn't give more than any other activity. I get a lot of points just RPing and talking to people. You just have to be active one way or another.

Of course, bashing is the easiest (and always available) method of being constantly in action. But it's not the only thing you can do.

Erzsebet

I say bashing gives more points, because it's a more consistent activity. Or at least a more controllable one. You bash and bash and bash and move and bash and heal and bash. As long as you can find things to kill, you can do it.

Vs you tell/emote. Wait for someone else to respond. However long that takes. Oh, they went afk for a couple minutes to grab a soda, well damn. And then you reply. And it repeats.

If you can find a semi-quick RPer, maybe it's comparable, but that hasn't been the way it's worked from my perspective.

Fenrir

The choice is obvious. The only people that don't want Lunare disbanded is Lunare.

Even Abhorash doesn't like them.

Calipso

Whenever I think of Abhorash, I picture him somewhat like this:

Fenrir

I personally thought he was perfect for that role.

Macavity

Fenrir said:

The choice is obvious. The only people that don't want Lunare disbanded is Lunare.

Even Abhorash doesn't like them.

this is far from the case.  We have logs of when Abhorash has stated to Kallah that He is proud of what the House has done and her in leading the House.

Macavity

Also I would tend to agree with the 5 Houses at this point, however only if there are more than just a few people keeping that score alive, save from the Leader.  

Lin

Completely off-topic, but I find it hilarious how powerful Abhorash is portrayed, when he was just a noob Rajamalan who spammed Frenzy.

Sarita

Earlier today when this thread started to get all its activity, I got Ezalor and Erzsebet into a web to talk about all of this. We ended up writing a petition to Razmael pointing out this thread (if he hadn't seen it already), and generally summarizing some of the points that we've all agreed on here and as a playerbase about some of the problems with the whole purging process. We, and the 20-some other people who let us add their names, asked if they would consider just raising the total number to five rather than four.

Asking people to sign was purely based on who was online, had tells on, and was not AFK at the time we were ready to send it over. We tried to give every vampire character a chance to offer input, and there was only one person I spoke to who didn't agree with it.

Rather than summarize it all, here's a link to the text: http://pastebin.com/pTw3Y4LK

Macavity

@sarita I would agree with this and would have signed myself if I was logged in.  Sadly I was nursing a hang over from getting wasted last night.

Calipso

Macavity said:

@sarita I would agree with this and would have signed myself if I was logged in.  Sadly I was nursing a hang over from getting wasted last night.

wasted by Abhorash???

Sorry couldnt help it XD.

Hadoryu

Guys, they're going to be demolishing guilds too. I know five houses sounds great now and the closeness of the numbers makes it a very appealing outcome, but the activity you're seeing now is going to plummet once it's all decided.

Four houses will be healthier than five and there are no two ways about that. Bite the bullet and maneuver your house to number 4 if you can. If not, move to another. As scary as losing a (currently) very active house sounds now, two months from now you'll have none of the stress, but all of the benefits of tighter organizations. Getting scared and flinching now is NOT going to be a good thing long-term.

Riluo

wrong section

Macavity

@hadoryu I understand your thought on this but keep this in mind.  When it comes to the Guilds so far it seems the Admins have a plan of attack already as we see so far with the Lycan guilds.  When it comes to the Houses it was put in motion a survival of the fittest putting us into a competition with each other and allowing us to basically pick who survives or not based on which four are most active.  Its a different mechanics that is going on.  With the Houses at the bottom being so close, it only takes one person not being logged in doing something at the time they look at the numbers that could save or destroy their House.  This sort of thing is not a good basis on how active the House is because of the different times and such.  

This is why I agree with the 5 Houses at this time and then look at it later, say after the Guilds that are to be gone are done.  This would allow enough time for the Houses to normalize and truly show which of the 4 should stay.

Hadoryu

I think none of the 3 houses vying for survival want to have to make a deal or compromise to ensure their survival, hence why the 5 houses solution sounds perfectly lovely and stress free. Neither of the three is currently sure of their chances, so why risk it, right?

I don't think putting it off will make things better in any way other than extending the agony.

At the end of the day, there still aren't enough vampires to stretch over 5 active, healthy organizations. The worst part is practically over at this point, backing out at the last second and not driving the number down to 4 would be a serious mistake.

Ezalor

@Hadoryu

When one of these Houses falls you aren't going to see them spread evenly over the other Houses. You're going to see almost all of them flock together to one House; the activity situation will remain the same except you get one SUPER bloated big House.

The margin between all the Houses is really razor thin at this point. Why does it have to be 4? That was just an arbitrarily chosen number. I think the players have proven 5 works just as well with how they responded to this pending deletion. And that's just the thing. This has shown that there are indeed enough vampires to stretch over 5 active, healthy organizations.

Haedyn

Hadoryu said:

Guys, they're going to be demolishing guilds too. I know five houses sounds great now and the closeness of the numbers makes it a very appealing outcome, but the activity you're seeing now is going to plummet once it's all decided.

Four houses will be healthier than five and there are no two ways about that. Bite the bullet and maneuver your house to number 4 if you can. If not, move to another. As scary as losing a (currently) very active house sounds now, two months from now you'll have none of the stress, but all of the benefits of tighter organizations. Getting scared and flinching now is NOT going to be a good thing long-term.

This all sounds nice, but it could not be farther from reality. What is far more likely to happen is that the fourth position in TOPHOUSES is claimed by whichever organization is willing to compromise their integrity the most. As has already been highlighted, the numbers are too close to prove -anything- at this point. It is a rat race, and to think that the people who fall to position five and lose their organization over such splitting of hairs are just going to happily join another House to forge a new "tight knit" family is very naive. 

If anything, this whole ordeal has reached the point that it has the potential to create a larger wedge between the individual Houses than already exists because they have been pitted against each other in this gauntlet of "Who can function with the least amount of sleep, metagame and call in the most buddies to wake up their alts, and speed-sire the most newbs off of the isle." The playerbase has already enacted the fusion to which you are speaking in the form of the agreed-upon mergers between Voltaire/Ve'kahi and Nebre'seir/Bouchard. Dar'sroth is clearly on its way out. To push the matter any further is not creating this harmonious solution to which you are referring, but instead creating a great deal of stress for the playerbase.

Hadoryu

It's fine if all the people flock to one house. If it's a successful environment, it'll retain the numbers. If it isn't, it'll bleed members. In any event, the numbers will regulate themselves according to the organization's success at providing a good environment.

I can't read 'makes a compromise to ensure survival' the same as 'compromising integrity.' If everyone is already metagaming to stay on top, I'd say integrity is already compromised. Now you can make a good thing out of this and actually end it the way you said you'd end it (and thereby causing the stress that's already been experienced) or you can back out, achieve nothing in consolidating the playerbase into a smaller number of orgs and STILL have caused a ton of stress over essentially nothing.

Yeah, you don't like being in this situation. Yeah, you don't want to be the one of the three to have to make the sacrifice. Why not them? Why you? The thing is, you're there already and this is a thing that has to be done so new players can stop being funneled into small/inactive houses and houses can stop being the Aetolian darknet where everything goes because they're irrelevant as orgs.

This is a design modification on a game-wide scale. It isn't about what's justice IC for the houses. You're getting a chance to not be the house that gets the axe and you're getting a chance to make this thing not stick out like a sore thumb immersion-wise. RP it out as best you can, but don't ask for this to basically stop and go back to the way things were.

Ezalor

The point's been proven with 5 Houses. They've all maintained activity. So really, what's the fixation on 4? Unless the admin have some purpose that I'm not seeing, 4 was chosen to ensure activity was upheld and the over-saturation of Houses was destroyed. Those goals have already been accomplished, so why seriously piss off/stress a portion of your playerbase to uphold an arbitrary number? You argue that 5 is somehow anathema to successful Houses when it's been proven it works just fine.

And trust me, I can inflate D'baen's number by a LOT more if I'm forced to it. At the moment the furthest thing we've done is call in one old friend back to Aetolia who is actually fully committed to playing the character. Do I want to stoop lower to ensure survival? No, but when survival's the name of the game, integrity is a losing strategy. I already know some of the other Houses have done far more. And judging a fight based on who wants to metagame more to survive the Russian roulette round just really, really blows.