Orrery Introduction

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  • TinaTina Member Posts: 87 ✭✭✭
    So it seems like we all agree that the last bit of time on the orrery is the only one that really counts. With it always ending at the same time, that means it's always the same group of players that impact who win. Whichever side has the most EU players at the time wins. It's always the same small group that decides how the orrery ends, who get the fun of being the decisive people in the battle. Never changing the times essentially invalidates half the playerbase's work on the orrery and will discourage them from even participating in the event. Which shouldn't be the goal of a long term recurring conflict. It should motivate people to get involved. The same half of the playerbase shouldn't have to constantly call off work or skip sleep just to have an impact on a central recurring conflict in the game. A game should be fun, not have negative impacts on your life. The only way I'd see this as being ok to not stagger the start times is if they are planning to create additional landmarks in the future that will start at the opposite time of the day as the orrery is. If the orrery is gonna be the only one we have though it has to have staggered times. Not to give the sides a fair chance, but for the playerbase's fun as a whole. Both sides I'm sure have people that are constantly being left out of the final hours of the orrery where it is decided. It's fun to feel involved and liked you helped win something major like this for your side. I think it would be more fun for everyone playing if we stagger the times. And to those who want to keep it the same cause they like the status quo now, do keep in mind the player base shifts. There will be a time when the other side has the majority of EU players.

    As far as the suicide infusing runs, that only happened because you didn't have control of the orrery in my mind from a strategic standpoint. There are now five key locations you need to hold. Just because you have control over one, one room out of five, that doesn't mean you have control of the orrery. You have to have control over all five rooms. It requires a different strategy then everyone huddling up in one room and fortifying and protecting it. If the other side can distract you or get control of one of those five points even temporarily, they should be able to strike back. If they couldn't there would be no point to the conflict at the orrery. Just whatever side has the most players gets to run it, and the other side just ignores them till they have more people. Is that really a fun conflict we'd want to fight? It doesn't sound fun to me. And it was the intention that the orrery is much harder to defend then attack. That's why globes of the opposite tether of the orrery have double impact. The hard part is not getting control but maintaining it over all five key points. I like the strategy and thinking needed there, can't go at it like every other group fight.

    In summary staggering the start time would make it more fun for all players across the board, and letting suicide runs and other tactics for smaller groups have a large impact actually encourage the conflict at the orrery and helps insure that it is constantly fought over. It's good to have those things to promote the health of the conflict long term. If we cater exclusively to who has the larger numbers and the same time zone every time a conflict is run, a predictable thing will happen. Same side will win every time, other side will just stop trying eventually, the conflict will become effortless and meaningless with people not taking part. Just walk in, drop a few globes till it's level five, then wait for the next one. It becomes a routine chore that stifles conflict. I don't think anybody would really enjoy that.
    MarienaLeana
  • EllianaElliana Member Posts: 49 ✭✭✭
    Will nudge this, there have been NUMEROUS times when the spirit side has been VASTLY outnumbered by shadow, times when your primary combatants are around and really put a hurting on us. Yet we are not complaining about how you guys are op and how things are swinging in your favor, we plan, we adapt and make it work for -our- numbers.

    That being said, adaption is key one thing doesn't work try something else, keep changing it up, because we will continue to assault the weaknesses you all have by approaching the -same- way. If you plan right you won't die. EU timezone really misses a TON of events, but you all don't see them coming to forums crying about it. They suck it up and find a way to make it work for them.

    There is no reason that in EU off times no one is trying we can be standing there twiddling our thumbs with 3-4 people when shadow vastly outnumbers and -could- strike for a win but they don't (call it lack of initiative or whatever.). unicorns happens you saying spirit gets all these benefits, no we just hone in on our strengths whatever is weak for one person, is someone elses strong suit.

    If you are really getting that bent out of shape over a -game- I strongly suggest you find a different outlet. It is a GAME, not real life, this is not supposed to bring stress or whatever to you, if I start getting frustrated I tell my team hey I am out this run getting frustrated and they accept that. Know your limits and know when to step away.
    I am not a morning inside four walls. I am the hurricane setting fire to the forests at night when no one else is alive or awake. I live in my own flames sometimes burning too bright -too wild to make things last and so I run. Far and wide until my bones ache and lungs burn..and it feels good.
    Do you hear that?
    It feels good, it feels good because I am both the slave and the ruler of my own body and I wish to do with it exactly as I please
    Leana
  • XeniaXenia Member Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Toz said:

    Honestly though they should just up globe value by 33% and delete the catch-up mechanic. Side that holds longest should be rewarded.

    You know, this gives me a thought: Is there a way to have a test zone for the orrery to run, where people can enter/begin one at will, in which the players can experiment with the game design to test out their theories?

    Even if it never is reflected live, it'd be interesting to have this exist similar like an 'arcade' feature. I know this may edge towards a reduction to immersion, but it could probably be explained away or even implemented in the form of a formal competition between tethers that will award an honors line similar to Cien.

    @Oleis, how realistic is such a proposition?

    Mariena
  • DakanDakan Behind youMember Posts: 14 ✭✭
    As a lifer who receives the benefit of having the orrery end in our 'strongest' timezone, I'm just going to say I agree with @fezzix and @toz.

    With how easy it is to reduce gains, the final stretch really is the only thing that matters. And the way it is, we will win it the majority of the time I think.

    I definitely support a change. Whether that is with shifting time zones or by implementing some variation that tallies total control time (with level as a multiplier?), either would be fair.

    Probably the latter is maybe harder to code than it's worth.
    ApianoraXeniaMorwen
  • KarhastKarhast EnorianMember Posts: 132 ✭✭✭
    Dakan said:

    As a lifer who receives the benefit of having the orrery end in our 'strongest' timezone, I'm just going to say I agree with @fezzix and @toz.

    With how easy it is to reduce gains, the final stretch really is the only thing that matters. And the way it is, we will win it the majority of the time I think.

    I definitely support a change. Whether that is with shifting time zones or by implementing some variation that tallies total control time (with level as a multiplier?), either would be fair.

    Probably the latter is maybe harder to code than it's worth.

    Honestly, all you need is a 'leap' day in its starting out. Just one IC day's difference would be enough for this discussion to become moot. Barring it taking up some of a coder's time, I'm not even really sure what the objection would be.
    ApianoraLeana
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in AtticaMember Posts: 779 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This having been my first go at the orrery since it's introduction, I'm going to have to agree with the idea of either staggering or randomizing orrery times a little once it activates. Having it active for 40 hours straight is a bit much, and participating in it sort of forces people to skip work/school/other RL obligations because of how much of a boon getting control of the orrery gives.

    I think the start and end time for the orrery could remain the same, but have it only active in random blocks. So, say the orrery becomes active and stays active for two hours, and then becomes inactive for two. Activates again for another length of time and then deactivates, and keeps doing that until it locks for good on the end date. It won't stop some people from camping 24/7, but would help in ensuring people are able to participate regardless of timezone. Kind of like how majors currently are. They're random, and depending on the time of day, you may get a lot of people fighting over control of it, a few, or none at all.

    It just seems like breaking up the orrery into smaller, more random time chunks within a start and end date is the better way to go. 
    Leana
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 992 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2017
    Objectively this is more fair than what exists it sounds like because currently that is ALWAYS a spirit strong side. The event opens for us, and ends for spirit, and the side holding it at the end will tend to win. So, no, quite the opposite- objectively fair would be staggered times so each side has a turn with their peak at the end, not as it is currently where spirit is at its best at the end always. Honestly though they should just up globe value by 33% and delete the catch-up mechanic. Side that holds longest should be rewarded.


    Pardon if I'm misunderstanding, but if Spirit is putting out superior numbers on more times during the day, why does Shadow (or Spirit if the shoe was on the other foot) deserve a unique time spot that benefits them. If the activity is stretched out over the 48 hours and one side is dominating for most of it, shouldn't they win? The event is already open to you, but if Spirit is countering you when Shadow is out in force and then when you're not, that... kind of sounds like it's working as intended. Shadow is just being countered when they DO have their forces out.
  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, the issue is that the last 12 hours matter. Not the rest of the time. You can go (we have gone) from 5 yours to 3 theirs in that time or a little more. And since the last 12 of the orrery are when we are asleep and at work, spirit gets a win by default.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous
    ---------------------------

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of unicorns awfulness Toz
    Fezzix
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 992 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2017
    Edit: See below on final calculation. I thought the complaint was made to shorten the overall span of the event so it blatantly favors one time zone. Since the static time swap repeats every six months, this can inadvertently end up favoring those in the same time zone repeatedly.
    Post edited by Seir on
  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So far as I'm aware, it's 40 hours and always starts at the same time and ends at the same time. Hence asking for variance. Though I'm basing this on reading announce posts and @Fezzix's comment on timing without doing the math myself.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous
    ---------------------------

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of unicorns awfulness Toz
    Fezzix
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 992 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2017
    Edit: see post below.
    Post edited by Seir on
  • CinarraCinarra Member Posts: 12
    So, I do not want to weigh in opinion-wise on this matter, but regarding start and end times for the orrery: I have been relying on the in-game DATE command to help me figure out what in-game times correspond to, and they appear to equate to static real-world times. Obviously, if the DATE command is broken, then this is all moot, but it has so far proven accurate.

    Here are the dates of the most recent (just now) orrery:
    The Aetolian date of 10 Variach, 464 MA at midnight would be 2017/02/01 02:15:58.
    The Aetolian date of 20 Variach, 464 MA at midnight would be 2017/02/02 18:15:58.

    And now:
    The Orrery is currently LOCKED.
    The Orrery is aligned to Spirit at level 3.
    The Orrery will unlock on the 10th of Midsummer, year 464 MA.

    So when I DATE the 10th and 20th, I get:
    The Aetolian date of 10 Midsummer, 464 MA at midnight would be 2017/02/26 02:15:58.
    The Aetolian date of 20 Midsummer, 464 MA at midnight would be 2017/02/27 18:15:58.

    Finally, assuming that the orrery after that also starts 10th Variach (which is, I believe, a safe assumption, since that's what the help file states, but of course correct me if I'm wrong), here are the dates for the one after:
    The Aetolian date of 10 Variach, 465 MA at midnight would be 2017/03/23 02:15:59.
    The Aetolian date of 20 Variach, 465 MA at midnight would be 2017/03/24 18:15:59.

    So at least based on that, I believe it is safe to say that the real-world start and end times are static.
    XeniaSeir
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 992 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2017
    Cinarra said:

    So, I do not want to weigh in opinion-wise on this matter, but regarding start and end times for the orrery: I have been relying on the in-game DATE command to help me figure out what in-game times correspond to, and they appear to equate to static real-world times. Obviously, if the DATE command is broken, then this is all moot, but it has so far proven accurate.

    Here are the dates of the most recent (just now) orrery:
    The Aetolian date of 10 Variach, 464 MA at midnight would be 2017/02/01 02:15:58.
    The Aetolian date of 20 Variach, 464 MA at midnight would be 2017/02/02 18:15:58.

    And now:
    The Orrery is currently LOCKED.
    The Orrery is aligned to Spirit at level 3.
    The Orrery will unlock on the 10th of Midsummer, year 464 MA.

    So when I DATE the 10th and 20th, I get:
    The Aetolian date of 10 Midsummer, 464 MA at midnight would be 2017/02/26 02:15:58.
    The Aetolian date of 20 Midsummer, 464 MA at midnight would be 2017/02/27 18:15:58.

    Finally, assuming that the orrery after that also starts 10th Variach (which is, I believe, a safe assumption, since that's what the help file states, but of course correct me if I'm wrong), here are the dates for the one after:
    The Aetolian date of 10 Variach, 465 MA at midnight would be 2017/03/23 02:15:59.
    The Aetolian date of 20 Variach, 465 MA at midnight would be 2017/03/24 18:15:59.

    So at least based on that, I believe it is safe to say that the real-world start and end times are static.

    After doing the math myself, this is correct. Assuming the event started at 10 AM EST, it takes around ~35 RL days to reach the next Orrery event. Given that every 4 hours is a day in Aetolia, and we keep adding this by intervals of 4 for every hour until we get to the 7th Month of Midsummer on Day 10, at which point, the event will start at 10 AM EST. The issue here is that every six months of Aet time causes this cycle to repeat, which is the exact date that this starts up again. This can be fixed by instead making the event every 7 IG months instead of the fixed six month cycle, so the months continue to change and thus the cycle should cause time zones to fluctuate. Problem solved, the 40 hour fight is retained, and no time zone has preference. Alternatively, the amount of time the event takes in total can also be changed. If it is too short, however, it will always just favor one time zone every time that it happens. If the fight is prolonged over a period of time, this generally allows all time zones to contribute and participate while alternating the final hour that it ends.

    Additionally, the reason why I'm advocating that it just be bumped up another IG month is because if the Orrery happens too commonly over a long period of time, people will get burned out quickly or bored of it or question as to why bothering if the rewards don't last long. If it happens rarely on a short duration, it'll just favor one time zone every time it alternates and not allow people from everywhere to participate. Inclusion should be encouraged.
    Post edited by Seir on
  • FezzixFezzix Member Posts: 324 ✭✭✭✭
    Cinarra said:

    So at least based on that, I believe it is safe to say that the real-world start and end times are static.

    This is exactly what I asserted in my initial post and why I suggested that the times get staggered. Have one start at 10 Variach, the next at 11 Midsummer, and the following at 12 Variach, and so on. This way we get a 4 hour variance every event so that the times aren't static.
    EllianaLeana
  • DatoDato Member Posts: 25 ✭✭
    Yeah, making each event start few hours after the time the previous one began or making it completely random (sorta like the majors) should fix it
    EllianaMorwen
  • RunasRunas Member Posts: 89 ✭✭✭
    I don't see an issue with different times, I think arguing against it is silly, just let people have a little bit of difference so it doesnt seem so static, static things are boring. Plus I cant really keep myself awake during the middle of the night for these pivotal fights as like a person on the west coast of the US, camping an orrery through the wee hours of the morning because were running low on people is rough, id be alot happier if I could at least have some coffee and toast first.
    The Divine voice of Tiur echoes in your head, "You know better than that. Bad."
    A telekinetic newspaper swats your nose.
    LeanaRasani
  • LeanaLeana Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    I agree with the staggered times.

    The rest of this post is just musings on how the fights typically go and general Orrery thoughts. I assure you, it has a positive ending.

    Most of the imbalance sentiment so far stems from the lack of players playing certain counter classes for shadow. Light has a lot of passive room control classes: Luminary, Shaman, Sentinels, and Ascenril, which are popular with pvpers (Mostly Luminary). While Shadow has: Teradrim, Cabalist, and Sciomancer, which are almost not played at all. Since Scio and Asc are both a bit rare at present and identical for both sides, let's put them aside for now.

    Currently, there are few who use Cabalist (who counter Luminary rites and Mage vibes) because of issues with the class or general lack of pvp functionality (TANGENT WARNING: @oleis can Essence/Devotion timers be sped up? Cabal can't even defup/fight when they run out of essence. More than half their skills stop working and the only fix is wait hours or get a heart. END TANGENT) and Teradrim (who counter Shaman overgrowth) who've struggled with their guild membership for some time (but it's getting better). With them absent during group fights, it feels like the light have an easy dominance. Once more people return to Teradrim and the Cabalist class is reborn, the feel will sway towards Shadow dominance.

    In ideal situations, where the classes are varied enough, the fights may feel more asymmetrical and balanced. There's no real way to balance around this situation aside from each side self-policing its group tactics, which has its own share of issues.


    Seir
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 992 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Leana said:

    I agree with the staggered times.

    The rest of this post is just musings on how the fights typically go and general Orrery thoughts. I assure you, it has a positive ending.

    Most of the imbalance sentiment so far stems from the lack of players playing certain counter classes for shadow. Light has a lot of passive room control classes: Luminary, Shaman, Sentinels, and Ascenril, which are popular with pvpers (Mostly Luminary). While Shadow has: Teradrim, Cabalist, and Sciomancer, which are almost not played at all. Since Scio and Asc are both a bit rare at present and identical for both sides, let's put them aside for now.

    Currently, there are few who use Cabalist (who counter Luminary rites and Mage vibes) because of issues with the class or general lack of pvp functionality (TANGENT WARNING: @oleis can Essence/Devotion timers be sped up? Cabal can't even defup/fight when they run out of essence. More than half their skills stop working and the only fix is wait hours or get a heart. END TANGENT) and Teradrim (who counter Shaman overgrowth) who've struggled with their guild membership for some time (but it's getting better). With them absent during group fights, it feels like the light have an easy dominance. Once more people return to Teradrim and the Cabalist class is reborn, the feel will sway towards Shadow dominance.

    In ideal situations, where the classes are varied enough, the fights may feel more asymmetrical and balanced. There's no real way to balance around this situation aside from each side self-policing its group tactics, which has its own share of issues.

    Aetolia has gradually become a game of counter situations when it comes to group combat, so I'd agree with your general assessment. It's a game that rewards being flexible rather than having just one class. Luminary, for example, had only been touched by Valingar for a very long time, so Absolve wasn't really being used to its full potential. Shadow used Annihilate very often back when I was most active because they had a lot of vampires and had coordination on the mana drain front. Now, Spirit primarily pushes mana drain and has a few more Luminaries. I was using it actively when I first came back and using it and then Aisling started actively using it. Initially, I had only really went Luminary for roleplay purposes, but I saw the potential of it in Spirit group scenarios because of the sheer number of Carnifex that Shadow had running around. I saw a lot of cases where the deaths were even between Shadow and Spirit in group fights, but Shadow was winning at the end of the day because of Soul Substitute and getting their people back up. I started using Rite of Damnation and that countered Soul Substitute.

    So yeah, Aetolia is a game of counters now when it comes to group scenarios and I like it. It rewards flexibility and allows all classes to feel like they're contributing something to the overall whole. I look forward to the Cabalist revamp and, hopefully, an eventual Zealot revamp.
    Leana
  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 543 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2017
    I'd like to note that sometimes its not about class counter, but about the ability of room/area control as stated by @Leana. In this regards, Spirit side has a SEVERE advantage.

    Shamans can overgrowth a room (stops sand) and make a room indoors (stops leap/fly). No immediate counter..... Let's also add in the fact that a Shaman can vinepull a target THROUGH mass/shield so long as there's overgrowth in the room (which is only countered by the ever rare Teradrim).

    Sentinels can use a single bear to block a direction that can't be moved, even after the Sentinel dies (but you have to go into the fortified room to do so). No counter for this.

    Templars have Aura Focus, effectively stopping them from being able to be forced moved as well. Also no counter for this.

    And let's not forget Luminary and their Piety skill that can effectively stop group movement by a huge margin even while the luminary ISNT in the room. Again, no counter for this, except for the ever rare Teradrim/Cabal using their skills to eliminate it... AFTER the team has effectively been split and eliminated because of Piety. Slight counter.



    While the Shadow side has the Gravehands ability, which is NOT as good as its counterpart Piety. We also have Lust, but if the Luminary have set down Banishment that won't work. Or if the target is shielded, also won't work. And that's if the Shadow side even has anyone IN Indorani.

    You can try to Lure/Yank/Hammerthrow (or whatever that Carnifex pull skill is) a target that's adjacent, but the above mentioned blocks make it completely pointless to even try. This is also a dangerous situation due to Adduction being laid down by the entrenched Spirit team.

    Shadow side also has no ability of room control on par with or even equal to that of the Shaman/Sentinel/Templar combos. Shadow side can't make a room indoors, they don't have a one man blocker combo, nor do they have the ability to pull targets through mass.

    So in essence, the Shadow side is forced to do a brute force run against any Spirit side once they've entrenched themselves in a room. While the Spirit side can continuously pull Shadow side if there aren't enough blockers (2 per direction).



    Yes, Aetolia can be a game of counters where you have to adapt to certain situations. But if you have the above situation entrenched in a room, there is no counter beyond brute forcing it. And in most cases, the Shadow side will lose to a Combustion/Absolve combo every time. Or will lose to pure damage with Enfeeble spam and high damage output from their respective 10+ people. Yes, Shadow side has won a handful of combat situations when the numbers are even, due to the fact that the above classes/situations weren't in effect. But when it comes to the Orrery combat, you will ALWAYS see the above situation.


  • XeniaXenia Member Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rhyot said:


    You can try to Lure/Yank/Hammerthrow (or whatever that Carnifex Wayfarer pull skill is) a target that's adjacent, but the above mentioned blocks make it completely pointless to even try. This is also a dangerous situation due to Adduction being laid down by the entrenched Spirit team.

    FTFY

  • DakanDakan Behind youMember Posts: 14 ✭✭
    edited February 2017
    Anything that stops leap/fly stops it for all parties, so that's not a particularly strong argument. I've had more than a few fights where I was silently (or not) cursing over my own team stopping my escape.

    Bear block also affects everyone, so essentially it's the same as any of the myriad classes that have a block, except you need to kill it after you take the room. Easily done.

    Aura focus is a giant double edged sword that can and does get people killed. It's extremely useful though, I agree.

    My understanding was that gravehands and piety were essentially clones. Is this not the case?

    Defending is always going to be easier than taking. That's just the way the cookie crumbles. And autobashing with ten people works for both sides, so I'm confused as to why you're implying it's better for us.

    Either way, Orrery was fixed so that storming one room is not required to win, so I'm not sure where your argument is going, @rhyot.

    Honestly. You lot have plenty of room control and general utility abilities. You have a plethora of awesome classes that y'all just don't utilize a lot for one reason or another.

    You have combos that are just as effective as mana drain / absolve. There was a time when darkies spent way more time than lifers perfecting group tactics, and when we'd get crushed as often as we won unless we had our unicorns acrewed on tight.

    The problem isn't class breakdown or skills. The problem is leadership. You don't really have much of it anymore with Toz, Ez, Moirean, Ilyon, Mazzion all sort of gone. Y'all seem to just sort of rally the militia and sally forth half the time, whereas we spend time before every fight assigning roles and choosing approaches. We also spend a decent amount of time educating new fighters - or even experienced fighters!

    Just my perspective, not intending to insult anyone. Sorry for typos.
    Cinarra
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 992 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2017
    I want to offer prospective, realistic counters for stuff that @Rhyot has mentioned. This isn't meant as a jab at you, @Rhyot. Mainly, I'm just offering some brainstorming and ideas for the stuff you're mentioning:

    Re: Naturalism Canopy. Yeah, Spirit has that. Wayfarer recently introduced the ability to make a room indoors as well, so Shadow has that as an option now. Spirit just has an extra class that can do it. However, now the advantage isn't exclusive. Keep in mind that with making a room indoors, activating Nature Hinder, and putting up icewalls, it affects us as well.

    Re: Sentinel Bear. If you want the Bear to stop blocking on the Sentinel's death, I'm cool with that.

    Re: Templar Focus. Technically, the same is true with Animation Steadfast from a Teradrim. The option isn't exclusive to one tether.

    Re: Piety. You have Gravehands. A Cabalist can also kill off the Piety rite. We actually can't kill off Gravehands.

    Re: Lust. Yes. Doppleganger has gone through some downgrades over the years, but it had to be. Lust and Hangedman both were being used as zero-risk "entanglement" options via Doppleganger while the Indorani safely sat far away. Lust/Empress functions more in a defensive capacity nowadays akin to Devotion Deliverance. Unlike Deliverance, Lust/Empress still has some offensive capabilities and it has worked on a few of us sometimes when snuck in during the middle of a group fight.

    While Teradrim does not have an equiv. to Naturalism Yank, it has something else. It has Sand Slice. Sand Slice will strip shield, goes through prismatic barrier, and will repeatedly strip defenses, eventually nabbing Cloak. This is something that Ilyon used to do on the regular when Spirit didn't have a Shaman. Teradrim also has additional offensive utility via their sandstorm whereas Naturalism is mostly defensive other than Yank and Displace.

    Both sides are forced to go into the room though in order to dig out a group. It's easier to play defensively than it is to play offensively and I prefer this. The days of Rangetolia were outright toxic and unfun. Spirit was basically forced to sit in the room and get slapped by arrows, Doppleganger, Star Tarot, and Telepathy while our primary form of range was... Telepathy, which in a leyline situation, was blocked. That isn't to say that Spirit had no options whatsoever, but none of them compared to Doppleganger. Also, don't even get me started on how ridiculous Lure was and I'm still stumped, to this day, as to how the skill existed for as long as it did in that incarnation. However, I have not seen anyone combine Telepathy and new Lure. You just need to strip Clarity and then you have a longer range lure.

    I'm also going to speculate on Shadow's issue right now and I have to agree with Leana. I've been successful way too many times at just yanking people off of the main group and splitting Shadow up during engagements. I'm not sure if Fezzix is your primary caller, but if he is, we try to drop him first. If he doesn't drop, he is forced to leave the room and snipe, which basically makes his ability to target call less effective. Spirit is coordinating or planning what we're going to do ahead of time, whether it be going for an Absolve, me using Strangle so a Monk can BBT, me yanking folks off of the main group, etc. There's more to group fights than just rush in and dish out raw damage.
    Post edited by Seir on
    DakanCinarra
  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sentinel bear blocks an exit, as does aura focus'd Templar. Shaman can pull adjacent with 0 risk to self so long as we have no Teradrim. I also don't think lure can AOE pull like beckon can, but it kept getting changed so I may be wrong.

    Our side, Tera can't block and steadfast only works for them 100%. Same for the Cabalist version. Neither can block. We don't have an AOE beckon.

    This means in am adjacent situation, bracer/lure is our best bet and it only pulls 1 person. Bracer/beckon pulls the whole group though. So edge: lifers for breaking forts. Additionally, you can pull people one at a time after fortifying adjacent via Shaman if we don't have a Teradrim. So we have to rush almost always, whereas lifers tend to have the ability to dig in adjacent and pick their fight (either by forcing us off our stack or splitting us with pull/AOE). Cloak strip isn't quite so reliable. And finally since there have been rumbles about Syssin, lifers have both telepathy guilds and telepathy is still a massively powerful group mechanic, and monk has one of the highest damage outputs in the game.

    Both sides have ups and downs, darkies could definitely suck less, but when it comes to group engagements lifers having access to more fortbusting skills is definitely a factor.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous
    ---------------------------

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of unicorns awfulness Toz
  • IlyonIlyon Member Posts: 746 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2017
    Historically, Shadow had superior ranged attacks, while Spirit had superior ranged defenses. For obvious reasons, this wasn't too popular (playing defense is much less fun than playing offense), and so the attacks got evened out over time. The defenses are yet to do the same, but they probably should (not too up-to-speed with the current meta, so no specific suggestions) - although arguably this isn't as important now that there is less emphasis on ranged combat these days.

    On gravehands/piety, they are functionally equivalent, the difference is that pity lasts a lot longer and can be removed (by the two least used Shadow classes, though it's tricky to factor class popularity into balancing).

    I'm still around, though not very active these days, ya. Agreed that team tactics plays a huge role in team fights.

    DakanSeir
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 992 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2017
    I'm not sure what ranged defense skills we hold an advantage over, but I'm willing to classlead them if someone can point them out and explain why they offer such an advantage.

    Also, while Shamans can yank and spread overgrowth, I cannot surge if there is sand present in the room. Shaman and Teradrim counter each other, so if one side has one and the other does not, you're knowingly playing at a disadvantage if the other side is bunkered.

    The only rumbles about Syssin right now (that I know about) are in regards to affliction potential in one on one situations such as repeating Impatience in hypno stacks or how a Syssin can easily reset a fight via Ethergaze/hide in Phase with little risk, not so much their group functions. Lure does not have an AoE function, but it has a ranged function now if Clarity is stripped, which you have the ability to do via a Monk or an ethergazing Syssin, which Shadow doesn't have in short supply right now. Pretty sure empowered Swat will also go through block and has been successfully utilized by @Toz in the past.

    So yeah, the sides are asymmetrical in a few ways, but not really in mechanics that are truly impactful in group scenarios. Canopy was the last big one, but that was just recently given to Wayfarers. Screen also got downgraded to not block telepathy, but just make mind locks take longer to achieve on those standing in it.

    I'm going to chalk it up to "grass is always greener on the other side". Would know, I had it until I ran a Prae.

    Edit: Also worth noting that Shadow has access to AoE Beckon, albeit passively, via Lycanthrope and the beckon howls.
    Post edited by Seir on
  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hammer swat is supposed to respect block, and has since class inception fwiw. With 2 unstoppable blocks (Templar/bear) and a pull that can only be countered with a single class not block (Shaman pull), my point remains that your side does tend to have better fort/fort-busting options, though yes this is getting more fair as time goes on.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous
    ---------------------------

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of unicorns awfulness Toz
    Seir
  • FezzixFezzix Member Posts: 324 ✭✭✭✭
    Does gravehands only affect enemies? I'm not sure if it does, but if not, then gravehands only serves to mess us up when we give chase. If I remember, Piety only affects enemies, so darkie groups get split up much more easily if we try to move in as a group. In the Orrery, it removes our ability to rush, and we're left having a Teradrim spend an EQ round flooding the room with sand just so they can kill overgrowth. That round of EQ gives an adjacent shaman the opportunity to yank one or two people. The only counter to this is a wall, which can be destroyed in every incarnation (except the iron wall, which is a rare artifact).

    Essentially, we can't move to a safe room within the orrery without the group being split, we can't rush without the group being split, and throwing up walls is easily countered while the shaman spams yank. I've only seen one instance recently where Sand Slice helped us rout an entrenched lifer room with ranged attacks, but I'll take a yank over ranged shield strip any day of the week.
  • RasaniRasani Member Posts: 202 ✭✭✭
    I don't know if it's been said, but @Xenia mentioned a thing about testing out different ways to work the orrery. It would be neat to do that, and honestly I think having that orrery type combat at more random times, like Majors, would be neat. Not to say that's the only way we should do it, as preparing helps with these things, but maybe having some pop up sometimes when the coders wanna try stuff out to make the system more balanced.
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