Orrery Introduction

Toz

Aishia said:

you could probably show up and kill everyone for trying to cook dishes you morally disagreed with somehow but I imagine there would be consequences.

Toz is here, spitting in your soup.

...On a slightly more serious note, why not have another 'thing' that involves bashing/doing quests that stays away from the pk event, leaving the orrery itself as pure pk. That way the PKers have their 'thing', you can dabble in PK if you want or you can just sit it out and do something else. Then, the other 'half' comes active and you can strengthen/influence something else (with bashing-related perks, or RP shinies, or whatever) doing quest stuff or bashing or whatever.

Seir

Non-combatants should be allowed to contribute without fear of being dogpiled on, because that is exactly what would happen. Even if you made holding globes open PK, a non-com just get ganked OR non-combatants will just hand their globes to the combatants as is, so they won't really be participating at that point in any meaningful way. War had ways of allowing non-combatants to contribute while not being active militia and encouraging more systems that do so without putting them at direct risk is a good system. Exclusive PvP systems die quickly without a way of getting everyone involved rather than the same small group of people every single time. Conflict does not always have to be entirely PvP contributions, and I think the Orrery as it currently exists exemplifies that.

I also think the time it takes to move from one spectrum to the other is fine as well in order to avoid people staying up all night while the other side is asleep so they can undo all of their progress. If one side can't fight the other off when they're around and in force, they shouldn't come away with a win at the end of it. That being said, some lapses during the landmark would probably be okay. People can get fatigued pretty quickly when conflict systems become a slog over a long duration, hence the complaints about the previous war system.

I honestly think the system is fine as is, and I feel like some of the concerns that have been stated in here were likely already addressed or thought of by the administration before the Orrery went live.

Fezzix

Aisling said:

Comparing crafting competitions that hardly ever have any effect on the lore to events like the Orrery that involves Abhorash, the War of Night and other factors, just as Three Widows did with the Atav, influence from Albedi Gods, and interaction with the many villages around the area, is not really an argument against what I posted here. If you think the two are the same thing, there's nothing I can do. You're still calling this a PK event despite the admin's measures to include other people. PK involves a good degree of coding knowledge, time, and plenty other things lots of players don't have and shouldn't be required to have to be involved in the game's lore.

Where in my statement did I talk about the game's lore? You're attempting to make the argument that events that shape the lore are the only ones that carry any true weight, but I never once talked about lore. My argument is from a meta perspective, and we have indeed had competitions with -credit- rewards that cater to combatants, crafters, explorers, and bashers alike.

But since you want to steer the argument away from my point and make it about influencing in game lore, fine, let's play. You seem to think that involvement in the game's lore is being hindered for people who can't PK, and this is false.

The Abhorash sequence with the Orrery was not a PK event, and neither was the War of Night, so your point here is invalidated. PK does indeed involve time, but there have been multiple lore shaping events over the past year that, at most, required some skill in hunting.

And don't tell me that crafting doesn't affect lore. The game's events sometimes result in changes to the landscape, and leaders use the ORGREQ system often to implement game events for their organizations. Building is crafting.

As for politics, I've seen first hand how the lore of the world can change thanks to the influence and input of politically powerful player characters.

There has been -one- PK event since I started playing Aetolia that had any lasting effect on the game's lore, and that was the Three Widow War, so I don't know where you're pulling your ideas from.

Aisling said:

Asking that events that largely affect the lore and stories of Aetolia only cater to people who are willing to PK is excluding a large portion of the playerbase. It's fine if YOU feel the game is made up of PK and hunting, and the rest is decorative, but that is just your view, and the game is open to more, and in order for it to grow, they can accomodate more. What this event did was not stopping the PK, the rules in place didn't keep it from happening, it just allowed more people to participate.

Once again, I never said that. I just want PK events to be for PK'ers without having our hands tied by being unable to touch some noncom who is playing an essential part in the puzzle.

Xenia

Aisling said:

Calling this an "easy mode" means disregarding how other people play it - people who craft, who just rp, who play in politics, who just bash. Those players are valuable too, keeping them included is a good way to ensure Aetolia grows. We don't force people to craft, we don't force them to RP or get involved in politics, and these people still get involved in events, the same should be said for people who don't want to PK.

To be clear, I'm not calling the choice to not PK as playing the game on 'easy mode'. I'm saying neutering a PK focused event to incorporate noncoms is essentially forcing a baseline 'easy mode' on everyone. Moreso, who says they have to fight back when holding the spheres. There are tons of way to just be annoying and flee and force people to chase you around without actually having to know how to PK.

Additionally, the point I was making was achieving a win in a neutered event is insulting, why not let victories be decisive? All participation in the event should warrant PK cause, especially in cases where the best play is to run interference, to force a larger force to have to split up in order to take full advantage of their numbers. I mean ok, if we want to play king of the mountain, then let's call it king of the mountain and put a quest arcade at the outskirts of the fighting which will contribute a negligible amount to the win.

Seir

Fezzix said:

Once again, I never said that. I just want PK events to be for PK'ers without having our hands tied by being unable to touch some noncom who is playing an essential part in the puzzle.

You already have the Hunting Grounds and the Sect of Blades as valid avenues of seeking out conflict and PvP. Conflict is an integral part of Aetolia in both lore and in its mechanics, and conflict isn't exclusive (nor should it be) to just the PK'ers.

Worth also noting that you still get to go against the other side in this whole thing. The globes offer an avenue for those NOT PK-inclined to still help their side. This is a good thing. It can also provide a gateway for those not initially as combat inclined to get their feet wet without diving head first. Given that I've heard complaints about how 'PvP is dead' by a number of people, I feel like we should be supporting a middle ground. Thankfully, the Orrery already provides one.

Fezzix

Seir said:

You already have the Hunting Grounds and the Sect of Blades as valid avenues of seeking out conflict and PvP. Conflict is an integral part of Aetolia in both lore and in its mechanics, and conflict isn't exclusive (nor should it be) to just the PK'ers.

Since when were the Hunting Grounds and Sect arena considered "events"? I'm not complaining about the game's overall content. Stop derailing the topic, please.

Seir

Fezzix said:

Seir said:

You already have the Hunting Grounds and the Sect of Blades as valid avenues of seeking out conflict and PvP. Conflict is an integral part of Aetolia in both lore and in its mechanics, and conflict isn't exclusive (nor should it be) to just the PK'ers.

Since when were the Hunting Grounds and Sect arena considered "events"? I'm not complaining about the game's overall content. Stop derailing the topic, please.

We can argue semantics if you want or nit-pick one aspect of each other's arguments, but my argument is that conflict systems, whether they be 'events' or anything else, shouldn't be exclusive to the PK crowd or the non-combatant crowd. That's how systems die. or how people quickly lose interest in them once the honeymoon phase is over. If you want to pursue systems that already offer you nothing but pure conflict, you have the Hunting Grounds and Sect. We don't have many systems, if at all, that allow for both crowds to participate. Not since war was disabled.

Serrice

Hard to say if war even catered to noncoms. I mean, what were you going to do if you didn't fight? Move troops? Without any PK sense, you'd get ganked and destroyed.

Seir

Serrice said:

Hard to say if war even catered to noncoms. I mean, what were you going to do if you didn't fight? Move troops? Without any PK sense, you'd get ganked and destroyed.

War had people harvesting, getting supplies, or what have you for the active militia, it had non-coms scouting or keeping an eye out, etc. It wasn't as readily apparent as with globes, but war really was about getting everyone involved rather than just the active militia.

Rhyot

Aisling said:

PK involves a good degree of coding knowledge, time, and plenty other things lots of players don't have and shouldn't be required to have to be involved in the game's lore.

I absolutely disagree with you here, @Aisling and anyone else who thinks this. Aetolia has gotten to a point where people are just handing out offenses, using TeamViewer to build triggers, and even admins creating/tweaking Firstaid. There is almost no need anymore for anyone to have coding knowledge, time, combat knowledge or anything. As it is, when we fought against the 13+ group of lifer side, all I saw was templar combustion hits with luminary sap/absolve. That's it. That doesn't take a whole lot of time/practice/involvement. Furthermore, with 13+ people, all you have to do is BASH 'target'. The Orrery is a group combat situation, you don't need to know ANYTHING other than, "Hey bro, you can do a bash attack, right?"

Furthermore, if you consider what a noncom is doing to ensure a win for your side, why should they not be open PK? You, as a noncom, are doing nothing but globe gathering so your side can win while walking around carrying a banner that says, "Hey guys, look at all these shinies. UH UH UH. You can't touch me, I'm not open pk, but my side is going to win because of me. " Would this enable people to get piled on and killed for carrying globes, absolutely. Will this remove a novice/noncoms desire to assist? I doubt it. Its exciting to be able to have that chance to help your city, even if you get absolutely obliterated by the opposing side. Additionally, if a non-com IS gathering, anyone on either side could be like "Ok guys, we're going to send 4 people with our non-com gatherer. Make sure they don't get killed." That's something called :gasp: strategy!

Limiting this event to a 5 room wide area where the only thing you have to do is fortify a single room with double blocks, 15 monoliths (overkill in my opinion), and then just let your noncoms run to you because you know they can't be targetted is absolutely taking away the PK exclusivity of the event. That's like saying you're not allowed to take down a dude who's breaking into your house all because he doesn't have a weapon on him. He's a noncom, right? But he has your stuff. A globe gatherer is essentially stopping the opposing side from winning or enabling the same side to win. Either way, said noncom is a critical and vital role in the whole thing and because they are actively helping gain the globes to win, should be allowed to get PK'd (But ONLY if they have a globe).

Also, @Seir: HG and the Sect are nowhere near "conflict" systems. You go in, you fight, you leave. That's it. Conflict involves 2+ parties to actively disagree with each other, beit PK or RP. The HG/Sect don't do that.

Another criticism: Enable a flag for anyone carrying a globe, regardless of where said globe is at, ie in a pack, with a golem, etc. This would stop someone claiming they don't have a globe when they do.

Seir

Rhyot said:

Aisling said:

PK involves a good degree of coding knowledge, time, and plenty other things lots of players don't have and shouldn't be required to have to be involved in the game's lore.

I absolutely disagree with you here, @Aisling and anyone else who thinks this. Aetolia has gotten to a point where people are just handing out offenses, using TeamViewer to build triggers, and even admins creating/tweaking Firstaid. There is almost no need anymore for anyone to have coding knowledge, time, combat knowledge or anything. As it is, when we fought against the 13+ group of lifer side, all I saw was templar combustion hits with luminary sap/absolve. That's it. That doesn't take a whole lot of time/practice/involvement. Furthermore, with 13+ people, all you have to do is BASH 'target'. The Orrery is a group combat situation, you don't need to know ANYTHING other than, "Hey bro, you can do a bash attack, right?"

Furthermore, if you consider what a noncom is doing to ensure a win for your side, why should they not be open PK? You, as a noncom, are doing nothing but globe gathering so your side can win while walking around carrying a banner that says, "Hey guys, look at all these shinies. UH UH UH. You can't touch me, I'm not open pk, but my side is going to win because of me. " Would this enable people to get piled on and killed for carrying globes, absolutely. Will this remove a novice/noncoms desire to assist? I doubt it. Its exciting to be able to have that chance to help your city, even if you get absolutely obliterated by the opposing side. Additionally, if a non-com IS gathering, anyone on either side could be like "Ok guys, we're going to send 4 people with our non-com gatherer. Make sure they don't get killed." That's something called :gasp: strategy!

Limiting this event to a 5 room wide area where the only thing you have to do is fortify a single room with double blocks, 15 monoliths (overkill in my opinion), and then just let your noncoms run to you because you know they can't be targetted is absolutely taking away the PK exclusivity of the event. That's like saying you're not allowed to take down a dude who's breaking into your house all because he doesn't have a weapon on him. He's a noncom, right? But he has your stuff. A globe gatherer is essentially stopping the opposing side from winning or enabling the same side to win. Either way, said noncom is a critical and vital role in the whole thing and because they are actively helping gain the globes to win, should be allowed to get PK'd (But ONLY if they have a globe).

Also, @Seir: HG and the Sect are nowhere near "conflict" systems. You go in, you fight, you leave. That's it. Conflict involves 2+ parties to actively disagree with each other, beit PK or RP. The HG/Sect don't do that.

Another criticism: Enable a flag for anyone carrying a globe, regardless of where said globe is at, ie in a pack, with a golem, etc. This would stop someone claiming they don't have a globe when they do.

I don't know what you think a conflict system is outside of 'going in, fighting, and leaving'. That's... pretty much the gist of a conflict system. Quite literally verbatim. Unless you want to specify in that HG and Sect offer more personal mechanical benefit versus lessers and the Orrery that offer tether-based/org-based benefits.

If that's what you're arguing, I'd say that org-based conflict systems should incorporate the orgs on a whole. Not just the same people again and again. Not to mention, while the barrier to entry in terms of PvP is lower than what it used to be, there's still a very clear difference between those who know how to code and those who don't, even if the coders help those who don't.

Killien

I'll echo what @Toz said earlier and say that if non-comms want to participate in a way that ensures they won't get killed, there needs to be a "bash/quest" aspect prior to or immediately after the pk part of it. Such as something that maybe influences the amount of essence generated. I.E. Shadow side turns in 50,000 corrupted moose hearts and Spirit side only turns in 10,000 purified rat tails, thus shadow essence spawns five times as often or some such.

I am not a PKer in Aetolia. I don't fight, I don't really know how to fight in the game. That said, if I went to gather essence for something that very much created a benefit for my side and to turn it in I had to go into an open PK zone, I'd very much anticipate getting my face melted if I made it clear I was gathering essence to either turn in or hand over to my side's gank squad.

Kelliara

Threadromancy.

Once again, the same issue with the orrey comes up.

A numerically superior force turns up, and leaves no counter-play for the smaller one. The open PK area is too small to try and break the group up into smaller skirmishes that could be won with a clever approach, and without being able to PK globe carriers, there's no reason for the majority of the force to do anything other than sit on their backside and hold the orrery.

Not being able to attack people who are collecting globes is ridiculous. It's not a case of "we need to give non-coms a way to feel like they're being useful." The fact of the matter is they're participating directly and actively in a PK event.

They SHOULD be open for PK. If we want non-comms to do things to help some other method needs to be come up with that's not "tie the hands of PKers in a conflict."

There was an argument earlier in the thread that the orrery basically boils down to sitting in one place for a length of time, well, opening carriers up to PK would fix this problem in a hurry. Groups would have to be split up in order to protect them, and it would allow a group that's smaller to actually have a chance at displace a larger one, so long as they're clever about it.

My 10c.

-Edit: Note, that I'm not saying the other side is at fault, since they suffered the same issue at the beginning last time.

Fezzix

I would also like to express irritation in suddenly being unable to finish a kill when someone simply tumbles out of the pk area.

Eliadon

Frankly, I'd just chase people who run out of the PK area and replyissue They were in the PK area and actively in combat with me, then ran away. I chased them.

re: Kelliara - That would encourage people to run through the area as fast as they possibly can and just grab globes as fast as they can, I think. Or find a globe then teleport to the Orrery. Even if you disable teleporting in the Orrery area, that leaves the ability to sit just outside it and do the same.

I'm not sure how to fix it.

Aishia

Orrery aura is hard to say but maybe a good idea. Linger a few seconds out of the area, or get it when you pick up an enemy globule. OPEN PK. Maybe apply some measure of the EXP bonuses inherent to YLEM.

Toz

Maybe make the zone where orbs spawn a sub-area like the Orrery is, so that if you're in that area it's open PK like some sort of location (or perhaps zone?) of high hazards, or danger.

Leana

Just want to say that if you are holding a SHIMMERING ORB no one can see if you've got the globes. So if they were open PK while holding globes and they were holding an inventory blocker, you'd basically just be gambling on killing someone unless you saw them pick one up. This means the Shadow sight would have a huge advantage in just phase stalking noncoms. The only real solution is to have some sort of PK aura that forms after a tick of the Globe or being in the location. (Noncoms can still participate but they gamble with getting more than one globe.

Toz said:

I really just agree with Fezzix. Do you know what I do while you guys RP at your ball? Afk. While you guys do the cooking event? Afk. While you guys run your political posts? Afk. There's no attempt to introduce a PK element into your crafting functions, your RP events, your politics, so it seems strange that when we have something everyone is trying so very hard to insert themselves into this.

...I guess what I'm trying to say open PK Iron Epicurean if you want to have noncom stuff here.

Every post like this is the best. Everyone reading this forum must support the PK IRON EPICUREAN battle.

Today's ingredient is... THE BLOOD OF YOUR ENEMIES!

Serrice said:

Hard to say if war even catered to noncoms. I mean, what were you going to do if you didn't fight? Move troops? Without any PK sense, you'd get ganked and destroyed.

Noncoms had a lot to do during War. They were scouts mostly, tracking troop movement and enemy combatants. When war ended, they captured areas divided during treaty (which is super tedious work). They also provided support for supplies and other things related to ensuring the troop movers and pkers could function.

Fezzix said:

I would also like to express irritation in suddenly being unable to finish a kill when someone simply tumbles out of the pk area.

I found it frustrating being attacked from the non-pk zone and just having to smile about it. An aura or some mark would be useful. Having a similar ylem aura and removing exp may bring more people around, but I'm not a fan of there being no loss to dying... so keep that part out.

Arbre

Leana said:

This means the Shadow sight would have a huge advantage in just phase stalking noncoms.

EVERYONE has Syssin class these days, so this is a moot point.

Leana

Arbre said:

Leana said:

This means the Shadow sight would have a huge advantage in just phase stalking noncoms.

EVERYONE has Syssin class these days, so this is a moot point.

It isn't a moot point. Primarily, Syssin are a shadow side class and the majority of those who use it are from that side. Just because it's a neutral class doesn't mean it's evenly distributed. In fact, the most famous shadow side combatants are Syssin fighters most of the time. I think Trikal uses Indo or Cabal too. There is an entire guild of people who can just do spywork without having to be a combatant.

Don't confuse possibility with equality.

Aishia

I feel like we BARELY have any Syssin left on the light side anymore. I can't even name one offhand who actually ever plays it.

Tina

I like introducing new conflicts besides ylem. My issue with this one is the more I play it, the less it seems like a new conflict. Mechanically and pk wise it's playing out like a lesser, with a different name, that lasts for 2 days. Which isn't the most enjoyable concept to me. You have one room that the action happens in that you need to hold. That room and a small radius around it is open pk. As many people as possible pile into that one room and defend it against all other groups. It's employing the same mechanics as a lesser, and we are seeing the exact same PK tactics and plans. And I feel like I'm just taking part in a never ending lesser.

I'm all for new conflicts, but if they are gonna be perm additions I'd like to see them with different mechanics, tactics, and ways to go about them then what we already have. There are ways to have conflict that aren't just about who has the most people that can be mustered, who can have the highest dps, etc, etc. I don't feel like this is gonna promote conflict long term either. The same people that enjoy lessers will do this, cause of how similar it is. And those that don't enjoy them will not. For the same reason. To get more people involved it needs to be more different. Anyways, that's just my personal rant on it, plays out too much like a lesser.

Leana

@Tina I agree.
A quick idea would be to have a second orrery somewhere in Scidve on the other side or another nearby area or another area entirely. Have each orrery be called something different and each one represent only one side - Spirit or Shadow. Have the actual Spirit/Shadow level be a reflection of their combined number. For example, Spirit Orrery is 5 and Shadow Orrery is 5, actual level is nothing and no one gets anything. Or, worse yet, it causes everyone to suffer a debuff of some sort.

It's just a quick idea, but it would force people to choose between defending and attacking. Since it will make getting rank 5 difficult without neutralizing the enemy, I'd suggest upping the level to 10 and adjusting things accordingly. Also have more globes spawn as a result.

Dato

That still wouldnt solve the problem of numbers. If you have more numbers than the enemy, all you need to do is keep switching to whichever orrery they end up in and you take both of them.

I support the idea of having a pk aura in the aura though, maybe entering the 5 pk rooms gives a person a ylem-like pk aura and soon as they leave that aura disappears after 1 min (so you dont use it to escape pk).

Similarly if they pick up a globe belonging to the enemy side, then you get the pk arua so people can hunt you, and if you drop the globe the aura disappears after 30 seconds (so people can still mess around with enemy globes and not be hunted all the time). However aura should not go down if you are in active combat.

And have no exp loss on death to encourage more people to show up and fight, since they dont lose exp if they die and they get a good exp bonus if they kill someone.

Rhyot

I disagree with removing the xp loss. XP loss is negligible as is xp gain. Level 99+ only lose like 30k xp per death. Not really a whole lot to lose as a quick run through of Xaanhal or Tiyen will fix that. Not only that, but xp loss isn't really stopping anyone from participating. I mean, how many people is the lifer side managing to pull at any given time? 10? 12? 14? Both times darkie side has contested this week, I've seen 10+ lifers each time. So obviously, xp loss isn't really affecting anyone nor stopping anyone from participating.

I also disagree with the part of only giving an aura to those who carry a globe belonging to the enemy. Your gatherers ARE STILL collecting FOR YOUR SIDE. We should be able to run an offensive defense by targetting your gatherers. They are still helping you win. As such, they -SHOULD- be allowed to be ganked/killed/obliterated/etc because they hold a globe. Doesn't matter the side, they hold a globe.

Numbers is always going to be an argument, because its always going to lean to one side or the other depending on the times. However, lately, its been leaning towards lifer side. Not that its a bad thing because at -some- point, it'll flip. Whether that'll be next month or next year.

In any case, a pk aura would be nice, so long as it was on everyone actively fighting and on anyone who collects a globe.

Oh, and remove the ability to deliver someone cross area.

Dato

Actually the main reason behind my suggestion for removing the exp loss is to increase the number of darkies coming to contest these events. Even when you had a force fighting at the orrery there were people on your side bashing. Had they more to gain from coming here than bashing, perhaps they would do it.

Secondly I personally dont mind if everyone gets a pk aura, but we have many areas like that already and how many people do you see going to Hunting Grounds or the Fracture? Even in sect fights its pretty much the same people fighting. This just gives non combatants a chance to help without being aggro killed, but sure put an aura on everyone that gets a globe, but have it drop 30 seconds after they drop/infuse the globe.

And why do you want deliverance removed? Its a legit group tactic and you have access to similar skills in Empress/Lust. And you cant seriously complain about deliverance, not only does it require the person to consider you an ally, but its also stopped by monolith.

Rhyot

Lessers don't have xp loss at them and we barely get the numbers to contest the 10+ lifers that show up to those either, so the argument that xp loss will entice more people to join is rather moot. If we can't get people to fight in areas that already have no xp loss, we're going to have THE SAME battles trying to get them to fight for the orrery, even if we DID have no xp loss for them.

Secondly, I don't mind if the aura is dropped 30 seconds after the globe is dropped/infused, so long as they have aura. I want to re-iterate, you hold a globe, you get aura though. Plain and simple. Globe holders = open pk.

And not removed... just so you can't do it from outside orrery area to inside. And correct me if I'm wrong, but lust/empress was changed so you couldn't do that across area. I could be wrong, and I might be. And I'm not complaining about deliverance, but this tactic would very well contradict and eliminate the entire defense strategy of attacking globe holders if they can just go 'wt Deliver' and get delivered away from being attacked while holding a globe. This is just my opinion/2c on the matter of cross area summons though.

Serrice

You're very wrong. Empress/Lust has been continent wide always and forever.

Kelliara

Serrice said:

You're very wrong. Empress/Lust has been continent wide always and forever.

@Serrice is correct, as far as I know.

But honestly, if you're going to stifle teleportations, it would need to be ALL of them, not just devotion. The Lusty Empress, Portals, Pathinder, Numerology Return, and all of the ones I haven't mentioned.

Leana

To entice people, make XP loss go away and add an XP boon of like 300% that's shared. Without XP loss, the gathers don't need to worry about the loss anymore and can be PK open. This will make people protect their gathers or teach them how to run better.