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Comments
I've ultimately concluded this remains consistent for players in all IREs and I should temper my expectations. It is upsetting, however, and hasn't really made me want to remain cordial in turn.
Getting a real big, "we can be dicks but you're not allowed to be dicks" feeling here...
I do also refer to people who I play with, alongside with your own* and at least I own it.
Don't be an OOC dick. Thanks.
With regards to the holier-than-thou stuff. I feel like IC it can sometimes be warranted, especially if you're part of an organization that promotes such attitudes. There is always going to be an air of "What you're doing is not right, you should be doing what we do". Which, if played with the understanding the person you're RPing with is also trying to cooperate in the storytelling, can actually be good. I.e, this whole "You said one sentence. Time to die" thing kind of kills that off.
But the OOC stuff? Thats just bad sportsmanship, I feel like the person behind the character should always be seperated. They're human and just like you, they're here for enjoyment. Theres no need to rush to ISSUE or rush to fight on that level. If a situation cant be resolved IC and its upsetting you as a player, perhaps a tell to the other person like "//Heres the rub" and explaining your concerns would go a long way. -most- people will understand.
... but then you run into people who are bad faith actors. Sportsmanship? I think if we've all read Ictinus' response in that Bloodbath thread, I'm aware that we are not all immune to engaging in unsportsmanlike behaviour ourselves. Just because I'm mostly nice and tolerant doesn't give people a right to think they're okay to rant at me or take potshots at me (see: discord).
My pet peeve is when people try to steer shouting matches towards less worthwhile subjects. I don't care about the latest developments in anyone's marital status. I want to go back to scream tweeting pseudo-theological discourse at someone 12 areas away.
I figured I would post here in conjunction with what Elene said, and shed a bit more light on the situation from another angle.
This may be something of an assumption on my part, but considering the bashing and aggression she's receiving is similar and I believe from some of the same people as what I've received, I think it's safe to assume that a decent chunk of this is people taking out their dislike of Whirran IC however they think they can. Be it on me, (Yes I have received several Discord messages since joining the Aetolia server,) or be it on Elene in this case. Now, I'm not claiming that every snide comment being cast her way is JUST because of me, I honestly noticed people being prone to this kind of OOC attack from the week I started Aetolia before anyone knew my name at all. What I am saying is I think it would be foolish to discount the increase in vitriol towards her being related to our connection.
To continue in that vein, I'll lay out a few things here. Whirran, in character, is completely awful. It was one of my biggest gripes when I started that it didn't seem like Aetolia had any genuine "villains." We have vampires and Bloodloch and all, but coming from Achaea to Aetolia, everything felt a little watered down. Even the bad guys were kind of pals with the other side? We just showed up to fight over foci sometimes but then went back to being mostly passive towards one another. I didn't like that at all, and wanted to make a character that was 1: believable, not a cartoon villain but also 2: an actual unabashed, zealous villain. I think that kind of roleplay is not only fun, but enriching. It gives people someone to be in conflict with, and I think conflict, a lot of the time, can push rp in the most interesting directions.
So yes, to sum up, Whirran in character is truly quite awful, and loud, and whatever else you want to put at his feet. He's got another side that some people in the game have seen, but not many. I've had many fun interactions with folks in character, and I wouldn't change Whirran, or the in character reactions I've had, for the world. HOWEVER.
I myself am pretty chill. Whirran's behavior often gets me ganked, sometimes in huge numbers. I would genuinely open the floor to anyone, Shadow or Spirit, who has seen me rage or scream at anyone about that. Or rage about the things people have said in shouts, even. Whirran is a character I'm playing, and the people who have reached out from Spirit side even, those who have taken the time, have seemed to find me pleasant enough. I've made some really good friends (Hi Kalena!)
However, there is definitely a group of people who really seem to have no IC/OOC separation. Only Spirit has had a reason to hate Whirran so far, mostly, so I'm only getting this from the Spirit side at the moment. That isn't conclusive proof that it's only Spirit, and it isn't meant to be read that way. But yes, shortly after joining the Aetolia Discord and a few times since (Note I joined on New Year) I have definitely received insulting or rage-filled messages because of how Whirran acts ic, targeted at me as the player and making accusations about me, the player, that just are not true. I usually don't even bother responding to these, because it doesn't seem worth the time. I'm beginning to wonder if my not responding simply means they choose new targets they think they can get to instead, like Elene.
This is amazingly shitty behavior to me on a few fronts. First, I think if you can't separate your IC anger over IC happenings from your OOC anger, and have to resort to OOC insults and accusations, maybe you should think about not playing a roleplaying game like Aetolia. It's obviously not good for you, and it certainly isn't good for the people you spew your displeasure at. Second, I am never going to be ok with people going after my friends OOC for things my character does IC. Never. That is one of the shittiest most disgusting things I have heard of. Going after people OOC for things their characters do IC, in general, is one of the shittiest things. I'm not ok with this, and I don't think the community should be either, ever.
Again, I can't confirm a hundred percent that all the shit Elene is receiving is about me. But our connection is public, and considering I've received a lot of the same vitriol she is receiving in some form or another, it makes sense to me. We've talked about it. I feel bad that it's impacting people I'm close with because of how I decided to play a character. If people have an issue with me, they can try talking to me in a reasonable manner. I think they'll find that I'll respond in kind. But anyone who resorts to going after me OOC over how Whirran is IC, or going after my friends OOC over how Whirran is IC, is going to get nothing from me but a swift ignore. This is NOT OK.
You sound like a reasonable guy so I hope you don't take this as criticism as much as a suggestion/reminder in what I hope is going to end up being a fruitful conversation that leaves the game and the community in a better place.
Sometimes IC actions can bleed over into how people feel OOC when we take things too far. When your character is constantly shouting about picking on the inexperienced while hiding from all of our combatants in the safety of his city and essentially goading us, it is easy to see why people may start to find his IC actions quite distasteful as OOC players. Given they have no real IC recourse, eventually it's going to bleed over and make the players themselves angry. I can never agree with going to discord or whatever to OOC rant at or insult somebody, but I also think that it doesn't come out of nowhere (for the most part, anyway - I know some people will go off at anything).
I am going to agree with Benedicto about Naos. His character is awful but he plays it incredibly well, and at the end of the day it's clear he's not just in it to "win". He's ready to take a loss. That, to me, is a much more sustainable way of playing a villain. People are more willing to engage with him as a character, despite how awful he might be.
I have some immediate feelings about what you are posting. Shouts are opt-in and if someone is shouting in a way that is bothering you ooc and not just ic, then it might be a good idea to use shoutsoff. Because essentially in your post you are justifying bad behavior by saying his ic actions made them ooc mad. Ultimately it is up to the player to monitor their emotions and show some emotional maturity. And if shouts are hurting your ooc feelings it might be time to take a step back and examine yourself.
Edit: Also, I am curious who is 'inexperienced'? From deathsights I mostly see Whirran engaging with Spirit veteran players in combat and most shouts are directed towards them.
The "inexperienced" person that comes to mind is Sardara. He is by no means innocent, because he has been shouting back just as much, but my point was about the fact that Whirran has specifically gone after him while avoiding the rest of us as much as possible. I used the word "inexperienced" because this was the exact word used in some of the shouting matches about who exactly would be targeted.
We had a great conversation, and honestly I think seeing how I discuss and do things OOC, demonstrated that from her perspective that my character and I are a separate entity.
Thankfully I was not an issue, but it is unsettling seeing a City leader troubled by this kind of behavior, and obviously our goals should be to support our City culture, and not be impacted negatively like this.
By no means am I infallible of making mistakes nor are any others of us who play the game, however, I, in returning to Aetolia have been doing my very best to keep from devolving into OOC mudslinging against players, or saying negative things which would ultimately harm the community. I have been in the bad shoes before, I have said things that were harmful, and I made a promise to myself when I returned to this game, that I would not follow in those footsteps again.
Nipsy - IS TERRIBLE, he is just an abhorrent little cretin who deserves all the IC hate he receives, and should be hunted, burned alive, stoned to death, tortured and tormented. I designed him to be a chaotic trainwreck of a Gnome, but on the other end, he has objectives, hardships and things he demonstrates IC to those he communicates with, even if some of those are vague threats. However, nothing I would say IC reflects my personal feelings on anyone or anything OOC, and people who work closely with me know that.
I have heard some stark parallels from 4 or 5 people that there are some rather toxic behaviors amongst certain people. None of these effect me personally, but that needs to not happen...because the people they will effect will result in a poor image of our playerbase, especially with a new playerbase coming in quite quickly as of late.
Side Note: There seems to be an influx of players who like to shout and engage in conflict from the safety of places they can't be reached, then when they finally do get punished for their behavior, it turns into ganksquads. Hold people liable for their own actions, I know I have had Nipsy say plenty of times, come face me, and met with four or five people from a conversation initiated by an outlier who wants to act tough in safety. It is one thing to shout and antagonize people, it is another to be vaguely relevant enough to do so.
1: I'm not going to waste a whole lot of time on this, but I think the claim that I "only attack inexperienced people and avoid experienced combatants" is super disingenuous. I may be missing some, but I know in the last week I've 1v1 killed at least these people. Valorie, Iesid, Illikaal, Saltz, Kalena, Aeryx, Rasani. All of these are folks who have chosen to engage with me in pk for various reasons, and while I won't try to tell anyone if they are or are not experienced, I think if all of these folks are inexperienced the pickings for who IS experienced get rather slim. Mind you, I've not won every fight against these people, not even close. But I've won enough, I think, to make the claim that I don't avoid them.
If that isn't enough, there are only 3 people in sect that I've fought that I have not beaten once. Sheryni, Lim, and Benedicto. Everyone else I've fought I have at least beaten once or twice, as far as I'm aware. I don't want this to come across as a brag, but to claim I'm afraid of facing combatants is just. Wrong. I don't win every fight, but I win a decent few. Trying to claim I only beat up inexperienced folks because of, I assume the situation with Sardara, is leaving out a lot of facts. Namely that Sardara helped gank me 5 deep at a sermon, two or three times in a row, when I had never interacted with him before. I killed him exactly the same number of times he helped kill me with that group, no more and no less, and told him right after that I regarded us as even and we parted on, I think, pretty decent terms.
It is true that 1v1 situations are becoming much more rare, I will and do avoid conflict with veterans when they are attempting to kill me in groups. This morning for example, Benedicto after me became Benedicto and Saltz, became benedicto, Saltz, Rhine and Kalena, and that finally became a six man gank that finally got me in death caves. I'm not complaining, mind you, it was very well executed and I died horribly. But under those circumstances I'm not going to fight straight up, that's just absurd.
2: All of this aside, I understand people get their OOC feelings hurt. But I don't see that happening as any sort of excuse for acting that way OOC. That is a conscious decision to allow that to affect treating players, not characters, like trash. However that is spun, that falls on the person who is allowing their rage at a text game drive them to treat others OOCly like garbage, imo. I'm firmly on the self moderation train, and I think that's clear for anyone who has ever interacted with me OOC.
3: Just as a general claim, if anyone ever has issues, feel free to reach out. I promise to be reasonable and talk things through. I am not changing Whirran as a character, but I am willing to adjust if people have a genuine conversation with me. So don't hesitate to reach out in game or whatever.
- things that both "sides" do (also, hey, do you think maybe viewing this as different "sides" is paramountly stupid? like probably a part of the dumb problem? We're only on opposing sides ICly)
- things that happened IC, for IC reasons, that made IC sense, and wasn't all that terrible (like people who talked poop and got scooped)
- things that happened years ago, from folk who became social pariahs, and requires glossing over the actual years of effort put into drumming out bad faith actors from at least our casual macrocommunity.
Newsflash: we're a game that peaks with sometimes over 100 people, there's gonna be poopbags. It doesn't make toxicity an inherent quality of either tether's culture, nor does it make People Who Play On The Other Team Bad People (seen this one from folk all over the map). Nor, frankly, does the inevitability of bad faith and/or abusive actors make that sort of behavior something we should ignore. Anyway, if I have to have Shout Discourse one more time, I'm gonna rip my fingernails out.@Czcibor We have jumped to dramatics very fast in this thread. If you are taking IG shouting at your character to discord to angrily rant at the person behind the character, I think you have given up your right to be called the victim. If someone is causing you that much genuine grief it is time to either ignore, shoutsoff, or issue them.
Edit: Three more posts appeared while I was posting this one.
Sardara got involved in ganks and piled in on the guy. I know it's fun and games when you're on the winning side, and it's easy to get a kill on someone, but please don't forget that the guy you piled in on is a guy behind the screen and he sees fully that you piled in on him. Every last name. So it's especially gross to see the 'inexperienced' card being played here.
Aside from the fact that Whirran doesn't specifically target only 'inexperienced' people ( and as far as I'm concerned, Whirran is himself a bignoob, kek), I think it's disingenuous (at worse) and very un-self-aware (at best - let's choose this interpretation, yeah?) to think that Whirran is the perpetrator abusing people. The guy has been ganked so much I ask him if he's even enjoying himself.
This whole issue is the reason I don't personally enjoy PvP with certain people. To me, competition isn't fun when it isn't friendly, and it's no fun playing with people who are just no fun to play with. Yes, I know it's a common thing online and in games to have people who get their rocks off dominating/killing others to make themselves feel good, but at this stage in my life it's just lame/cringe to me. Would rather see a world where PvP is about competing, improving and enjoy each others successes.
I'll admit that my perception on other things may have been coloured by the side of the game I see, though.
I do not even see Whirran as an IC villain. He is like a teddy bear.
If he were a real villain, he wouldn't get mad at me for eating the innkeeper during his patrols.
However, After all the other deaths that took place without a response by me, I eventually just spoke to Whirran IC and just went with his word that "things were even". Although I did it in a bit of a "Dont prove people right about your kind." sort of attitude to kind of, not entirely come off as cowardish. I did not see the need to engage him OOC as things got settled that way. Had it continued, I likely would have done.
Sometimes guys, in roleplay, you have to just let misunderstandings like this go and concede "Alright, whatever, but moving forwards...". If you're unwilling to do that, it just breeds contempt towards one another.
Sometimes, part of that reaching out is looking inwards when they respond. If you think someone is saying something incorrect, its wise not to assume the worst. Instead given the fact the screen was moving a million miles a second and I couldn't really understand what was happening, I assumed he probably did believe I had engaged three times or had intended to. THEREFORE, I just moved forward on the basis that this is what happened.
Its about compromise guys. In the end, we're playing a game. Its not worth it to be like "REEEEEEEEEEE"