Mildly Irritating: Aetolia's Pet Peeves

Illikaal

The difference is complaints are being voiced about a lack of numbers, and that simply is not true. All of the above reasons listed as to why players are online but not showing up to fights is 100% applicable to everyone in the game and doesn't affect any one side more than the other, so it can't even be defining factor. What is the defining factor is that you have consistent numbers online, but unwilling to fight. Whatever reasons people want to invent for that is their prerogative. I can say with surety it is due to a lack of trying from a number of individuals whether people want to swallow that pill or not.

Ardent

It still counts as a game peeve if it's based on the forums right?

I'm bored to tears of the us vs them mentality that jumps up every time a combat discussion happens. Honest peeve is brought up, gets dismissed and throw around because someone doesn't agree with it, turns into argument which devolves into tether tribalism. I don't care if you agree with me or that statement, it's what happens. Very rarely does someone from Spirit or Shadow agree with something someone from the other Tether says on the merit of what is said. If it does happen, there is someone who comes up behind said person and disregards it.

You're obviously right about the numbers issues gentlemen and know exactly what the problem is. Have a nice day.

Rhyot

Illidan said:

Just came to rip the bandaid off.

The problem is, as I see it, there a number of people on Shadow who simply do not take time or show the initiative to get better, or lead. There have been -numerous- times in which i've done lessers, majors, and even orreries with just myself and @Valorie, or with @Sryaen, and there will be 8+ shadow people actively online, but because people like Mjoll or Mazzion aren't around to lead them, they don't try. Actually, they do try, but they get trashed 2v4, 3v6, etc. If Mazz or Mjoll, or even Alela lately aren't leading stuff, objectives are often incredibly free.

It's a competence and willingness to participate problem vs an actual lack of numbers problem.

Ardent hit the nail on the head in his rebuttal towards you, Illidan.

However, let me unpack something else for you. You do have a point that there is a bit of a competence problem because new leaders and new callers getting their feet wet, but what you are disavowing is the willingness to participate still. Yes, there might be 8+ shadow people online, but how many of them ACTUALLY participate in lessers? Maybe half. Furthermore, why would -anyone- (and I've heard this same exact argument from Spirit side, so don't go all tribal tether on me here, mon amie) fight if there is a 2:1 difference in group numbers. Yes, there are times where Shadow -does- have the advantage in numbers, and due to some sort of RP event going on or a lack of leaders on Spirit side, Spirit doesn't show up to a fight when Shadow has 10+ fighters (on the sub-rare occasions).

Also, let's not bring up the Orrery because this last round was absolute bollocks and if you defend it otherwise, that would say more about the culture of Spirit than anything else. I may not have fought in it myself (because busy life style) but I heard a lot about it through web and people venting to me.

I only brought in group numbers and not skills because that's a whole other separate argument and one I'm really not willing to get into with all of you, ESPECIALLY on forums.

Xavin said:

There is a lot to unpack in your post @Rhyot that just...is not right. While I'm sure there are times when Spirit has a huge number advantage during individual engagements at lessers, it's not constant. On top of that, there have been plenty of instances where Shadow looses to fairly even numbers and someone will run their mouth saying that Spirit brought a, quote, horde or that Spirit metagamed and pinged people on discord when neither happened.

On top of that, I know I have heard multiple times that Shadow web has a history of being...less than pleasant, especially when taking an L.

So yes, I think there is a bad sportsmanship problem here, but I don't think it's Spirit that has the problem.

Allow me, mi amigo, to unpack this for you then. You are objectively incorrect on the point of it not being a constant. For the past year, it -has- been a constant. Even more so in the past 6 months. At any point in the day, when there is a lesser... it is almost always a 7+ event which quickly bursts to something around 10+ after a first contest. This is likely due to 'Oh we're winning and I can show up, get recognition for showing up for my city credits and not do anything but bash eld because we're double the numbers and it would be suicidal for Shadow to show up at a 10+ man lesser.'

I will, once again, agree that there are times where Shadow loses to even numbers. This is usually either because of poor coordination on a beginning leader, poor class synergy (which is more often than not), or because of some skill usage (which while some of it is understandable, there's also a certain objectivity to it as well, but that's an argument of which I do not want to start here on forums because of tribalistic mentalities and frankly, not conducive to the concerns of mass group numbers).

Also, of the little snippet you posted Xavin.... from an active fighter perspective, that would become a 14v7 in Spirit favor. So I do appreciate you posting proof as to the exact issue of what I'm talking about. It definitely promotes the objectivity of what my frustration.

Also, while Shadow web might sometimes be ornery about taking an L, so too can Spirit (read: complaints about shouting after Shadow gets a W), but much like Shadow they can also be overly cocky (read: continued shouting from Spirit after a W from a lesser/orrery).

While there are issues on Shadow that is affecting people to want to participate, a large portion of the DESIRE to participate falls heavily on the fact that it's a bashfest of 10+v ~6-8.

Seurimas

Illidan said:

The difference is complaints are being voiced about a lack of numbers, and that simply is not true. All of the above reasons listed as to why players are online but not showing up to fights is 100% applicable to everyone in the game and doesn't affect any one side more than the other, so it can't even be defining factor. What is the defining factor is that you have consistent numbers online, but unwilling to fight. Whatever reasons people want to invent for that is their prerogative. I can say with surety it is due to a lack of trying from a number of individuals whether people want to swallow that pill or not.

Well, you seem very sure of that answer. Good for you. I suppose I will keep on "inventing" a life outside lessers and supporting others who also choose not to engage with every team battle while they're online. As long as we're in the pet peeve thread, I'll throw in one of my own: the community's inclination to demand participation. Being burned out on combat or just wanting to do something else is often seen as a moral failing. It's something I understand, because you are disappointing people who need your help with the big group battle, but people need some perspective on these things. Being logged in and not at a lesser is not a mark against your competence, leadership ability, or good character. It just means you didn't want to participate in that activity, and that should be okay, no matter who you are.

Also, the vilification of just being logged in to see what's going on or to enjoy some light RP with friends at a gathering spot is just bad. No, most people are not just padding their vote weight, stop saying that.

Iesid

Ardent said:

It still counts as a game peeve if it's based on the forums right? I'm bored to tears of the us vs them mentality that jumps up every time a combat discussion happens. Honest peeve is brought up, gets dismissed and throw around because someone doesn't agree with it, turns into argument which devolves into tether tribalism. I don't care if you agree with me or that statement, it's what happens. Very rarely does someone from Spirit or Shadow agree with something someone from the other Tether says on the merit of what is said. If it does happen, there is someone who comes up behind said person and disregards it. You're obviously right about the numbers issues gentlemen and know exactly what the problem is. Have a nice day.

I might be inclined to agree in other discussions - though tbf I think there's a lot to be said for people using 'tether tribalism' as a catch-all excuse not to engage in discourse. At least in this case, though, the peeve is a blatant falsehood or not representative of the reality of the situation. It's a culture issue. I'm literally watching that issue unfold in front of me via reading Rhyot's posts: some folks on Shadow tether actively deny reality or convey their complaints in a way that would not make me want to participate alongside them. Numbers are usually even. The organizations inside the tether have problems with encouraging participation and I'm sure there's a lot of angles that could be attacked at.

I didn't have fun playing my Shadow alt. There community around them is why I didn't go back to that character after I was done taking my break from Iesid.

edit: please don't take this as me saying Spirit is perfect - we have our fair share of issues.

Illikaal

Seurimas said:

Illidan said:

The difference is complaints are being voiced about a lack of numbers, and that simply is not true. All of the above reasons listed as to why players are online but not showing up to fights is 100% applicable to everyone in the game and doesn't affect any one side more than the other, so it can't even be defining factor. What is the defining factor is that you have consistent numbers online, but unwilling to fight. Whatever reasons people want to invent for that is their prerogative. I can say with surety it is due to a lack of trying from a number of individuals whether people want to swallow that pill or not.

Well, you seem very sure of that answer. Good for you. I suppose I will keep on "inventing" a life outside lessers and supporting others who also choose not to engage with every team battle while they're online. As long as we're in the pet peeve thread, I'll throw in one of my own: the community's inclination to demand participation. Being burned out on combat or just wanting to do something else is often seen as a moral failing. It's something I understand, because you are disappointing people who need your help with the big group battle, but people need some perspective on these things. Being logged in and not at a lesser is not a mark against your competence, leadership ability, or good character. It just means you didn't want to participate in that activity, and that should be okay, no matter who you are.

Also, the vilification of just being logged in to see what's going on or to enjoy some light RP with friends at a gathering spot is just bad. No, most people are not just padding their vote weight, stop saying that.

If the boot fits, wear it. But keep in mind who's complaining about a lack of numbers here. When we have a ton of people online who aren't otherwise available to fight, we don't say that the numbers don't exist. There's only one case I can recall over Frontline a month or two ago from someone being upset because people 'responded too slowly' to their call to arms, and then threw a karen fit about. Otherwise, no, we don't make people go if they don't want to. You should also stop accusing people of saying things they literally never said.

Aeryx

Every problem stated by all parties here on this happens on both sides. Sometimes not on one side or the other, but it does eventually for both sides. It's a miserable system, always has been, because everyone always ends up feeling miserable eventually because it happens to both sides. There is no 'cultural' fix to it. If there was, don't you think someone somewhere in the past 10 years of lessers would have tried? That leaves a mechanical fix, which is never coming, because Every. Single. Time. This. Conversation. Comes. Up. They. Don't. Comment. It's not a problem to anyone who can fix it. So both 'sides' here can probably stop being salty at each other for something that's never going to be fixed for anyone, even your own bias and side.

If you don't see this, or disagree, you're probably just reaching at this point to poke at someone else in this thread for the hell of it, in which case you should probably just stop typing the draft you're in and close the web browser.

Or hey, maybe I am wrong, which I'd love to be. If I'm wrong, after 10 years or whatever its been on and off of playing in these lessers, these virtual tug of war matches, maybe they will finally change into something that is less miserable for both sides. Maybe we have the solution. The solution is so clear in this thread, we all need to just log on 24-7 and have no lives and always be willing to match each other's numbers. Blah blah blah. What a pipedream.

Maybe you all should base who's right and wrong on facts and what has been real historically on this matter and less about how much you like or dislike a person in this thread. I guess that's got to be my pet peeve of the day, a lot of people having a bias just because they don't like someone, regardless of what is said and if its right or wrong.

Seurimas

Illidan said:

If the boot fits, wear it. But keep in mind who's complaining about a lack of numbers here. When we have a ton of people online who aren't otherwise available to fight, we don't say that the numbers don't exist. There's only one case I can recall over Frontline a month or two ago from someone being upset because people 'responded too slowly' to their call to arms, and then threw a karen fit about. Otherwise, no, we don't make people go if they don't want to. You should also stop accusing people of saying things they literally never said.

Certainly, Shadow has its share of complaints about not participating, and that's something I try to fight when it pops up, but what about this: "When we have a ton of people online who aren't otherwise available to fight, we don't say that the numbers don't exist." What is that if not a demand for participation? Rhyot and others are absolutely right to say "the numbers don't exist" because the numbers [of people who want to participate during most lessers] do not, in fact, exist. Declaring dishonesty about the lack of numbers, and that there is some "invention" of reasons to justify non-participation, is exactly the problem I'm talking about. Deciding that a Shadow tether gripe about uneven numbers is invalid because "look at all those numbers you ACTUALLY have" is the problem. Even QWHO numbers do not automatically equate to even lesser numbers, and implications that they do or should is the problem.

To be clear, those are all my problems, not Rhyot's. Rhyot's is that the numbers don't exist, because they don't.

EDIT: Also, to be fair and because it may have been unclear: my pet peeve was not actually principally directed at you or anyone in this thread. What you said is related and does not sit well with me for the reasons state above, but the problem is much broader than you or this thread.

Aeryx

I mean if we want to talk about numbers though, lets go for another fact here, as I just said in my last post.

Last night, several hours after Rhyot made his post about this, amusingly(I actually lol'd when it happened), me, Sryaen, and 3 others went and started a lesser. Then, Shadow's force was like 8 people coming in curbstomping us. In fact, we knew it was going to happen, and were talking about it in web. I said whatever, after we get destroyed, can you show me how to use tlist and call with the current Sunder etc etc so I can help, Sryaen? And he was like sure, and that's what we did.

It was a straight 8 v 5 curb stomping. We didn't have the numbers. Maybe this is a rare case, that's fine. I get it. I just think it's hilarious, because I think everyone needs to chill out if you think that one side or the other -always- doesn't have numbers, because it's patently false. Just because it happens after you log off doesn't mean it didn't happen. I even did 'farsee Rhyot' when I got 8 v 5'd and couldn't find him online.

So. Shrug.

Ya'll want a both sides cultural agreement on rules of engagement, then make a clan that has leaders from both sides that is statedly OOC, and start drafting rules of engagement, and start RECORDING the attendance numbers from both sides at every lesser. So you can get real sample sizes, instead of your own biases of when you log on and play.

Don't want to do that, then continue waiting for the mechanical fix that I have been since I first complained about lessers back 10 years ago and was laughed at about it in webs and clans back then. Some of you all can keep laughing while not engaging in the system and thinking it's a cultural fix. Theres are solutions, nobody takes them.

I'll see you all at the next one. Good luck!

Xavin

@Rhoyt I have a feeling the words 'objectively incorrect' don't mean what you think they do, buddy. Because it is absolutely not objectively correct that spirit has an 'active fighters' advantage that has persisted for more than a year. But sure, go on ahead and moan and complain and don't do anything that actually helps the situation. As others have shown there are times of the day where Shadow has an advantage and times of the day when numbers are even, and times of the day when spirit has the advantage.

At nearly all hours of the day that I am around if I look at qwho I see a list of people I have set as allies and a list of people set as enemies that have at least participated in the past at some point, because I don't enemy people that I don't end up at a lesser or major against. Those numbers are usually fairly equal, if not skewed a little bit in one direction or the other. But what -is- objective fact is that Bloodloch and Spinesreach, together, have a population that is greater than that of Duiran and Enorian's. And is apparent when you look at who is logged in at any given moment. It is very rare for Enorian or Duiran to have more people around than Bloodloch alone. If those people on either side don't want to participate, look at the causes of that lack of desire. Is it a true lack of interest? Is it a conflict with someone or multiple people on their side? Is it attitude issues? Lack of reward? These are all things that can be fixed. Spirit has worked hard to make systems that reward players for participating in both guild and city, and there has been a lot of work put in to foster a positive environment on our combat webs and on Frontline. Some of this was due to admin cracking down on some pretty bad behavior in the past but our org leaders and combat leaders generally try to keep things on the up and up.

I can't speak for how y'all do personally because I've not seen it. But I've heard enough to have my own ideas as to what might be going on.

Edit: Ultimately, there is a difference between not having people and not having people that want to participate. Y'all consistently have more people. Figure out why they don't want to participate.

Jun

In my own experience, sometimes Spirit is outnumbered, sometimes Shadow is outnumbered, usually depending on timezones, and I genuinely cannot bring myself to care because lessers are pretty meaningless - other than for pride points, I guess. I get why it's frustrating for people, but also - I take a step back, remember we're fighting over ylem numbers that don't matter, and move on with my day. I group PK because it's fun for me, win or lose. Which is also a reason why I suddenly show up to contested lessers I was ignoring otherwise - I want to fight. It's fun.

Similarly, I'm not going to tell people they can't come because we already outnumber Shadow and I'd never expect Shadow to do the same, because ultimately we should be encouraging participation (and never complaining about people who don't want to show up, which I have fortunately not really seen at all). So then people complaining about our numbers puts me in a weird position. I'd like to fight, sure, but when people complain about our numbers, it's discouraging me from participating, so sometimes I'll just sit out unless I see actual contention. I've never felt OOC or IC pressure to participate in lessers, but I've certainly felt (relatively miniscule) pressure in the opposite direction.

One of the only real pet peeves I have regarding lessers is thinly veiled OOC barbs thrown around in tells afterwards. Even that's pretty ignorable, frankly; doesn't mean people should keep doing that, though. You know who you are even if I don't - stop it.

Ardent

Xavin said:

Edit: Ultimately, there is a difference between not having people and not having people that want to participate. Y'all consistently have more people. Figure out why they don't want to participate.

Generally? RP, Burnout, or simply they aren't fighters. Bloodloch/Spines has more -flat- numbers sure, but maybe half of them are fighters on average, and of those not everyone is going to want to fight every fight. Even with incentives to fight through points and such people aren't inclined to fight if they have no draw to the fighting aspect of the game.

This last lesser that just ended we had more, and it should be noted that people started showing up before a generally accepted "main caller" showed up. If I'm being honest, I'm surprised we got the numbers we did. But hey, it happens.

Edit: I was shocked for the numbers given the time of day. At least three of those people managed to get a break in their workload to join in on that.

Alela

I'm tired of this conversation. I'm tired of it on the forums, and I'm tired of it in webs. Complaining about numbers doesn't help anyone. Hypothesizing about Discord bat signals or poor sportsmanship in webs doesn't help anyone, but rather it encourages us to develop negativity toward the 'other' side while absolving ourselves of responsibility for trying to improve.

Sometimes we get smashed by big numbers, and it's frustrating to lose. We know. Everyone knows. We're just stewing in negativity at this point. Let's move on, please.

Sryaen

Elene and I actually had this discussion last night about numbers. While I do think it's largely a perspective thing, there's a certain time of day where it flops back and forth with how many Shadow vs Spirit people are online. My online time has significantly gone up in the past weeks, so I'm around for 80% of the lessers and majors that happen. Shadow side has far more in terms of population than Spirit side does, so you have a larger pool of participants to choose from. Whereas I feel Spirit side has a slightly less amount of players, but we only have a handful of non-combatants. I'm sure some of you may disagree with that, but I was legitimately shocked when I played my Shadow alt for a while and saw the sheer number of people online at any given time in your combat clan vs Spirit's combat clan - and this was early afternoon through a few hours after the Howling.

It's definitely a culture thing. Even when Shadow side has more numbers at a fight, I don't think myself nor anyone else in our webs, discords, clans, private tells has suggested unsportsmanlike conduct or metagaming to boost numbers up. I ping people on Discord if it's 30 min before a major or if a lesser just got tapped and I see they're online, not because I want to pad our numbers but because people enjoy PVP. Considering there's a death feed that you can watch from numerous places, it's pretty clear when PVP is happening and the idea of policing people to have reasons for logging in is absolutely laughable. You lose nothing if you don't win at a lesser, except maybe whatever cures you ate or lost during. And winning is basically about bragging rights at this point since cities apparently have enough ylem to sustain themselves for literal real-life YEARS.

Seurimas

I ping people on Discord if it's 30 min before a major or if a lesser just got tapped and I see they're online, not because I want to pad our numbers but because people enjoy PVP.

I would actually love if lesser taps got added to the API game feed. Maybe the official discord could include an @Lesser handle you could subscribe to and get a ping whenever lessers start. Just like there's nothing wrong with not participating, there's nothing wrong with participating either! Even if you drop in just for the lesser.

Bonus points if the "winning" side (whoever got the last tick of extraction) got logged as well! I wanna see someone cook up a real scoreboard.

And winning is basically about bragging rights at this point since cities apparently have enough ylem to sustain themselves for literal real-life YEARS.

Ylem's value needs some love, too. Please, please, please give us some more uses for ylem supplies. Daily modification drains and 5 crystals per aide per day are never going to threaten to outpace income.

Konnorn

I didn't read every word said in the last 10 comments or so, I just skimmed through it, but I wanna toss in 2 cents at random. I am not a combatant, never have been and never will be. I just get confused by everything going on. I help at lessers from time to time basically expecting to die, cause that's what's gonna happen most of the time. What gets to me is the attitude around combat. I've seen it in this thread now. "Why don't people just learn to become great leaders so they can win?!" Not everyone is interested in being the leader of the troups. Not everyone has the mindset for that. Some people are followers. That should be okay.
Another piss-poor attitude is the ridicule tossed at non-comms who participate in ylem gathering. I'm looking at you here, @Illidan. What you are doing is not cute. It doesn't make you macho. It's just... boring. At least most Spirit people show decency and respect in situations like that. @Benedicto let me finish getting my HG item. @Sryaen killed me at the HG, only to revive me when Tellimerius got to me. You, Illidan, ridicule. That's low. If you want people to learn combat, to -want- to come to lessers, win or lose, start with changing your attitude.

Sryaen

Konnorn said:

@Sryaen killed me at the HG, only to revive me when Tellimerius got to me.

My pet peeve is that I thought you were more of a fighter than I thought, so I felt bad about chasing you to the HG. Also that kill took embarrassingly long because I realized that 1) I didn't have you enemied, so my auras weren't hitting you and 2) I was using my PVE swords instead of my PVP ones, so everything was slowed down by almost half a second.

Konnorn

@Sryaen I don't mind being killed when there is cause, no worries. HG is fair game.

Teani

Personally, my play time has gone down first due to covid, then because of work, and lately because I rarely find enough interesting stuff to do compared to writing a brand-spanking new fantasy novel.

I don't really fight when I'm online these days because I run on an old system that sometimes (not very often) freaks out at the new commands per second limit. I'm not good enough with coding to fix it, and the ui on other systems freaks me out with all the input, which means I'm not very likely to switch to sorting else (I'm not good enough to strip the ui down to the bare minimum that I prefer either, and before someone says they can teach me, I don't have the will to learn that as it is right now). My choice, but no one had come down on me for it. Everyone has been very accepting of that fact. 

What I think needs to be echoed from previous posts, though, is that both sides have their demons, but it tends to shift back and forth just as much as participartion numbers do. I've played on both tethers and heard nasty comments about noncoms, non-participation, mistakes made during fights and whatnot. Some people are more subtle in their remarks, which might make it difficult for friends of that person to realize how it might be perceived. All of us play this game because we like it, so perhaps we should all try to dig a little deeper and really make the effort of working together across the tether line? 

Naos

I can’t believe I missed the 8-12 month anniversary from the last time this asinine topic was discussed. O h well, maybe next year. 

Illikaal

Konnorn said:

I didn't read every word said in the last 10 comments or so, I just skimmed through it, but I wanna toss in 2 cents at random. I am not a combatant, never have been and never will be. I just get confused by everything going on. I help at lessers from time to time basically expecting to die, cause that's what's gonna happen most of the time. What gets to me is the attitude around combat. I've seen it in this thread now. "Why don't people just learn to become great leaders so they can win?!" Not everyone is interested in being the leader of the troups. Not everyone has the mindset for that. Some people are followers. That should be okay. Another piss-poor attitude is the ridicule tossed at non-comms who participate in ylem gathering. I'm looking at you here, @Illidan. What you are doing is not cute. It doesn't make you macho. It's just... boring. At least most Spirit people show decency and respect in situations like that. @Benedicto let me finish getting my HG item. @Sryaen killed me at the HG, only to revive me when Tellimerius got to me. You, Illidan, ridicule. That's low. If you want people to learn combat, to -want- to come to lessers, win or lose, start with changing your attitude.

Who hurt you? Are you referring to the singular instance a few weeks ago my character called yours a coward when you got a lesser taken away from you? Because as I recall, Konnorn has/had a history of noosing and ganking newbies when it suits him, and not fighting/running from bounties or otherwise real retribution. To my character, that behavior is cowardice. Within the context of you sending a tell saying "You can have the lesser, I have no interest in fighting for it." came off as a cowardly excuse, because had I been an easier target, you would have indeed fought for it. Secondly, you're somehow trying to deflect(reflect?) how you, an enemy, are treated in an IG interaction, vs how players facilitate a mostly OOC related environment to help them get invovled in PK. Otherwise, what noncoms or newbies do I or have I ridiculed that has caused them to not want to fight? Once again, I wasn't the one complaining about numbers. Help me make it make sense. 

Furthermore, never once was it stated "Why don't people become great leaders overnight?" so let me make myself emphatically clear. The statements were specifically addressed to people complaining about a lack of numbers or combatants when 1. They hardly participate in any conflict themselves and 2. They put in -no- effort to attempt to fix or better the situation and opt to do nothing but complain unconstructively. Nobody likes someone who whines about a situation they actively do not contribute to, least of all when other people are trying to teach them to do better they dismiss it, or continue not to try. If this is you, then yes, I'm talking to you. If this is not you, why do you keep falling over yourself to jump in the way of what isn't directed toward you? Spare me. 

Eliadon

I have a proposal! I have divine sight so Chameleon and offplane can't lie to me. I'll just check update my wholist (without using GMCP so it's not lied to >:() every time a lesser gets tapped, 5 minutes later, 10 minutes later, 15 minutes later.

If, after a month or two, the numbers are pretty much even, can we just never mention number of people online being a factor again? 8^)

Back 2 idling in my haven and artificially inflating the Spirit player count.

Konnorn

@Illidan
I really am sorry, but you must have me confused with someone else. I really don't fight. Not newbs, not lowbies. I don't gank. I don't noose. Last time I noosed someone was during a Capture the flag event (I think, atleast it was at a team contest event thingie a decade or so ago). I've never had a bounty on Konn's head. He's been enemied to organizations, sure, but I am pretty sure Illidan has been as well, so that doesn't count. I think you are aiming your anger about these actions towards the wrong person. Who? I really don't know, but it's not me. I don't do that. I leave when lowbies attack at lessers I am handling myself, because I. Don't. Fight. So if you called Konn a coward because you think I have done those things, and it was an honest mistake, well.. apologize to me and I will apologize to you. But I still think you need an attitude check in general, cause you really come off as rude both icly and oocly. Icly, you can blame on rp. Not sure what you wanna blame it on oocly though.

Also, I never said that you said "become great leaders -overnight-". Those are your words. Not mine.

Illikaal

Konnorn said:

@Illidan
I really am sorry, but you must have me confused with someone else. I really don't fight. Not newbs, not lowbies. I don't gank. I don't noose. Last time I noosed someone was during a Capture the flag event (I think, atleast it was at a team contest event thingie a decade or so ago). I've never had a bounty on Konn's head. He's been enemied to organizations, sure, but I am pretty sure Illidan has been as well, so that doesn't count. I think you are aiming your anger about these actions towards the wrong person. Who? I really don't know, but it's not me. I don't do that. I leave when lowbies attack at lessers I am handling myself, because I. Don't. Fight. So if you called Konn a coward because you think I have done those things, and it was an honest mistake, well.. apologize to me and I will apologize to you. But I still think you need an attitude check in general, cause you really come off as rude both icly and oocly. Icly, you can blame on rp. Not sure what you wanna blame it on oocly though.

Also, I never said that you said "become great leaders -overnight-". Those are your words. Not mine.

I think players should stop equating in game interactions to out of character ones and learn some separation, as that's precisely what you did. Also, it was my job to keep track of people who hunted the protected cities of Enorian as Knight Marshall. It was a long time ago, yes, but never do I forget the reasons behind character interactions. Konnorn was definitely one of those people, and of course it's well known that you're not a 'fighter'. That still doesn't immunize you from consequences from real fighters based on your actions. Konnorn was always the type to do things he knew would warrant PK cause and cry afoul when those consequences came back knocking.

I will not apologize to an adult because they took being called a coward in game incredibly personally on an OOC level.

Konnorn

@Illidan Again.. I have never ganked newbs. I have never noosed random people. I don't know what kind of bs you are pulling, but stop lying about my char. Kthnx. I am differenting ic and ooc. I am calling you a unicorn oocly and I am calling your char a unicorn. I am not asking you to apologize for ic stuff. I am asking you to apologize for spreading unicorn about my char that simply isn't true. I think you need to read stuff a few times before actually responding, so you get stuff right. If there is any shred of proof that Konn's ganked newbs and noosed random people, since you kept track of stuff, I would like to see it. Send it over in a msg. If you can prove me wrong, I will fess up.

Brax

Alright guys, let's get this train back on the tracks and be cool to each other. Lesser discussion can happen in this thread Seurimas started, and this one can get back to in-game peeves please.

Fyrren

My biggest pet peeve lately has been in Crafting designs. There are a lot of different designs that are essentially useless since they don't really have a real function but can add some depth for roleplay and visual aesthetics of locations. My issue with this is that a -lot- of designs could actually potentially have uses. Why can't I pour liquid in jars for example? Why can't I position chairs at a bar? Why can I position chairs at a bed? Why aren't beds positionable? Why can't I sit on a cushion or lie on a mattress? Why are those two designs in tailoring and not furniture? I think that a lot of it could be either oversight or never really delved into because not many people are crafting these things but I would love to see designs given the parameters to be able to used to their full potential rather than limited to simply being an object with no use.

That all being said, I appreciate every bit of work Becue, the approvers, and everyone else involved put into the crafting system. I have gotten really into it lately but this burst of inspiration has shown me a lot of the limitations and I would love to see these issues addressed!

Teotl

>.> I've sat on cushions. And LIE DOWN ON mattresses. But I get the general spirit of the post and am always happy with more rp tools
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Unrelated. Tether mechanics are super weird. Left Bloodloch and cured (so only class was shifter) but was still considered shadow tether even though technically exists last I checked. Then joined Sentaari who are apparently Spirit tethered even though I could have sworn they were also neutral? But Teo was still considered Shadow tether because they hadn't joined another city?

This math is strange. Is it even possible to attain neutral tether if you don't start that way and keep it the whole game?

Jhura

The guild is technically spirit aligned, but the monk class itself is neutral, just like with syssin being a shadow guild but neutral class, which is where some of that weirdness is coming from. If you'd joined any other guild then you would have been marked as being 'spirit tether', I believe. No idea on the neutral question, but it's an interesting one.

Mjoll

neutral doesn't exist in any real form.