Sanguis Revamp

Satomi

Just because I have access to every Shadow Class, I'll put it this way, in response to @Zsadist's statements about high dmg/med tank vs med dmg/high tank

@Talfinel I am pretty sure that Unicorns(typed out) actually is hard-coded in to replace profanity.. Lets test it.. -redacted- (Poop) NOPE! Not that one! -redacted-? NOPE! IT IS NOT! DON'T DO IT

Read Spoiler at your own risk. (I DID IT Z!!! Longest. Post. Ever.)

Keep in mind I'm rounding slightly, but yeah, using typical and wise as my statpacks (augments going towards recovery, con (int for cabbie), and a protection + experiencex2. Typically, I'll have about 5k hp (Roughly) (I typically have 15-16 con, 14 str or 15 int, 17 con and 15 str in Tera's case and 17 int, 13 con in Cabbie's place.)

Below, when I talk about Audit, I'm talking about physical audit. All Elemental audits are relatively even across the board. With miniskills and miasma up, all my magical audits are within the 40-50% range (Magic/Cold/Fire/Elec). Poi/Asph/Psy are around 20-30%, though I am lacking the Antidotes Miniskill due to laziness/goals. Otherwise it'd be in the 40-50% range I am sure.

I am also FULLY BUFFED. Every Skill buff and Curative buff I can lay my hands on. (Though I don't include Vigor/Apocroustic(?) in my estimations, it heals around 200-300 hp per crit, which can make the multi-hit classes even tankier. I also don't include Ylem-related stuff, like Orbs, Necklaces, Refining buffs)

Cabalist: 10k Hp through Link. Roughly 3s eq on decay. 1600 dmg per hit. Decent Audit when fully buffed. 40-50%s acros the board. Soulburst to avoid redeffing after death.

Teradrim: 5k HP, 2.55s bal, 900-1000 dmg per hit(if you are using RUNEMARK for the Blue inks, with IMBUE STONEFURY up), 10% dmg reduction (Twinsoul) Best audit when fully buffed + Golem with Fend vigilance'd. Steadfast also provides the most bashing security, in case someone tries to summon you against your will. (I'm talking about YOU, Telepathic Wrenchers into walled off rooms!)

Syssin: 5k HP, 2.49 bal (whip dependent. This is a roughly balanced whip, like 130-140 dmg, 130-140 speed), 900-1000 dmg. Decent audit when fully buffed. 40-50%s across the board(Weaving = Elusion(Prae), both are 3%)

Carnifex: 5k HP, (weapon dependent, about 130-140 dmg, 130-140 speed) 2.45 bal, 900-ish dmg (opportunity ups it to 1100-ish), Hound Intercept blocking full dmg occasionally. Fairly good Audit for no shield. If they had a shield, they would wreck phys audit. decent magical audit. Soulburst to avoid redeffing after death. Can also prevent mobs from running away.

Shapeshifter(Lycan): 5k HP, 2.5-ish bal, 1200 dmg, howl healing. Poor physical audit, decent magical audit) Cornering adds 3% to dodge (iirc)

Pre-Praenomen: 5k HP, 3s bal, 900 dmg with Potence, mend for a heal every 25s. Decent audit if you chose Sapivi, second to Teradrim and on par with Carnifex. Affinity for 25% dmg reduction.

^^^vvv Both Prae have Elusion, which adds 3% to dodge.
^^^vvv Both Prae also have Entomb, which gets you back into the fight in like.. what.. 30s?

Post-Praenomen: 5k HP, 2.9 bal, 1000 dmg with Potence. 3.2-ish bal, 900 dmg without Potence, mend for a heal every 25s. Decent audit (Definitely on par with Carnifex, if not slightly less/higher depending on blood levels)

Sciomancer: 5k HP, (I haven't bashed as Scio in so long because it is so terrible) but I'm pretty sure that Staffcast is 2.5-3s EQ with 900-ish dmg per hit, Reflect for quick-shield. Surprisingly good audit. Even better physically than Shapeshifters and Monks.

Monk: 5k HP, 2.5-ish bal, 900 dmg over 3 hits(Crits for days!), numb to take tons of dmg and strip away 40% of the total for a flat 60% dmg. Transmute for instant conversion of mana to hp. (Beware roving Annihilators/Absolvers) Probably the worst physical audit. Numbness negates the fact completely (Except when it wears off and you take a sudden 2500 dmg hit to the face that would be 1700 dmg for everyone else). This is very much a risk/reward/luck basher, Carnifex being second to it.

Indorani: 5k HP, 3s-ish bal, 900 dmg Bonedagger (1500ish dmg decay) using optimal statpacks (15-16 dex agile for bd, wise for decay), Putrefaction. Fairly good audit, overall, with Bonehelm and putrefaction added in. Soulburst to avoid redeffing after death.

Of these classes, I would only bash in Teradrim, Cabalist, Carnifex, or Praenomen pre-revamp, though all but Carnifex were more secure bashing (can't rely on intercept), Carnifex was the fastest of em. (2x attacks = more crits)

Teradrim and Praenomen were my favorite, because Cabbie is a more recent acquisition and hasn't collected my love yet.

It is also worth noting that my int classes have terrible divert, though all their Divert Chances are at around 30%. The Divert Amounts are god awful for non-str, like 5% at the most, and at like 15-20% for the str classes. All their Dodges are around 13%, some being higher and lower based on Class Buffs and statpacks (Agile for Indorani/Weaving/Elusion)

The difference between Teradrim and Praenomen? Teradrim killed things a lot faster, but I had to be a slight bit more wary while I bashed. Praenomen? I could autobash like a champ but it would take me a fair bit longer to get through a bashing area, even if I had to shield spam on occasion with Teradrim. Teradrim also has innate shielding.... and still has Twinsoul.. and three different bashing attacks with varying damages and balance times.. and.. can buff their str/con with Earthenform.. ALSO has Steadfast, so you can't be yanked while bashing for a sneak attack.. ah..(CLASS SWITCH TERADRIM) >.>

Honestly, though. The only difference between then and now, for me personally, is that I now have to look over at my screen more often than once every couple minutes when I run through Xaanhal or Tiyen and Cabalist has replaced Praenomen for me when it comes to bashing. Do I die more as Cabalist? Yes. Because sometimes my Shield Tattoo runs out where Tera has an infinite shield.

I am only posting this sort of hard-numbers data-related stuff so that you all kind of know what's going on. (obviously providing you with details on my configuration so you can understand that nothing I say really applies to the lower level people until they are either Tri Trans, Omni-trans, + miasma.

I would also like to note that none of what I am saying has any bearing on how 'fun' a class is. You shouldn't pick a Class based off of bashing power unless all you want to do is bash. All classes can bash to one degree or another. The ones I focus on are simply the easiest for ME, personally, to bash in (and likely everyone else as well). For example, Sciomancers can Enchant and provide extremely beneficial room-wide effects. Indorani Utility is through the roof with Tarot. Syssin are some of the deadliest assassins in Sapience. Shapeshifters are the only class that have skills entirely focused on teamwork that also push for solo kills as well (See AB QUARTER) Etcetera etcetera.

There is no wrong class to pick. This is just a discussion on bashing effectiveness on the Shadow Side.

I also like how, after finishing a post, I spend the next 30 minutes editing it because I think of some neat thoughts I want to share, or more things to add in that I had missed.

Neoma

In hematurgy we had the ritual of binding which would change the sire of an individual, is there anything similar now? If so i do not see it.

Riluo

@Neoma No. We got told we would see rituals returned but this has not occurred thus far sadly. I think it is a matter of waiting for now. Although the change sire ritual was a bit iffy after it got abused to create the whole 9000+ Menelaus clones!!

I would love to see a few off them returned as frankly I miss the little things to check sires, increase reanimation items, the wisp etc

Alexina

I've made posts in the past (here's one of them: http://forums.aetolia.com/discussion/559/praenomen-bashing-please-look-into-it) about how incredibly overpowered the old affinity skill was. A ~20%-25% damage cut from all incoming NPC damage without any drawback? Like some people pointed out, there were Praenomen that bashed Xaanhal in the 80s.

Praenomen without affinity is not appealing for bashing in the slightest, at least not to me. Teradrim and cabalists (link in itself is just crazy) seem to be the new top tier bashing classes in terms of tankability, and both have moderately high DPS. Anyway, from what I understand, they cut out affinity from the Praenomen set without much changes to DPS or utility, which would leave the class in a rather sad state. I might try a bit of bashing in the class later today, just to get a feel for how the changes affected the class.

I do hope they will not bring the old affinity back. It was far too strong (at least with the skillset Praenomen had). Higher damage or shorter balance? Heck yeah, sign me up for that.

Talfinel

@Alexina I think the thing to point out, that has apparently been missed by so many, is that almost no one was against it getting tweaked. I wouldn't mind seeing it brought down to 15% or so. (That way we're absorbing a little bit more than the Teradrim, for doing less damage.) But it seems like the class just got slashed apart by someone who wasn't fully grasping the larger picture.

The big issue is how so many changes went in at once, with little to no discussion between the admins on their stance afterward. You can play whichever side of the coin you'd like, but numbers don't lie. When I look at the the house roster and only see a single Prae (Simply because they haven't class changed yet) something is terribly wrong.

If it was only losing affinity, it might have not been so much of a kick in the balls. But we lost lots of survivability from Sapivi, lost our inherent resists, lost Affinity, and now have to deal with the bull**** blood mechanic. There have been arguments about touching low blood levels giving higher audits and strength, to which I simply respond with "Try to bash Xaan with 40% reduction in all healing and get back to me."

Ultimately the numbers alone should throw up red flags for anyone who is objective in their assessments. Hardly anyone plays Prae anymore because it was hit way too hard, and most of the people debating against that point are either:

1.) Looking at a tiny portion of larger changes.
2.) Don't even play the class, so they jump into it to do a few seconds of 'testing', before jumping out of it to something better.
3.) Have so many artefacts they could bash as classless effectively.
4.) Have all the blood perks and endgame stats, so they don't really feel the brunt of the changes. (I made a post about feat tax and forcing races already).
5.) And some people I've talked to are so tied to their tether they really just don't care about how unbalanced things get, as long as it's hurting their 'enemies'.

Lim

Please put in a liaison report if you think the class needs improvements. IMO classes are rarely released in optimum state, and it is through the liaison process that the designers receive feedback from players who have experienced issues, live.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing the blood numbers tweaked to make it more viable for bashing at low/high blood. The idea being that you can trade between offensive and defensive capability depending on how high/low your blood level is. 

Asaraii

I've been really busy adulting and not overly motivated to do a lot of looking into all the changes, but uh... can we have a way to change someone's Sire back? I spent 25 freaking minutes trying to figure out how to do it before asking for halp and finding out that we can't do it right now.

RP, house stuff, etc etc, pls halp, mayday mayday mayday

Neoma

With the character retirement option I think that the demand for the binding ritual is now high and should be return. There is a lot of stuff I miss from hematurgy but the vision and binding rituals are missed and needed by everyone!

Aishia

I think it's just a matter of when or how rather then whether or not.

Zsadist

So, for the people who have Praenomen who are still -IN- Praenomen or those who used to bash as Praenomen, here is the solution to a liaison report I had put in about Affinity:

REPORT 2124

Decision:
2016/01/16 03:30:23
Affinity or its old mechanics won't be making a return. The ability of Praenomen to hunt is about as
good as most classes right now, aside from a few outliers who are on the overly good end of the
spectrum. It'll all come under review when we do a bit of work to hunting overall.


@Alexina, sorry, but I doubt Praenomen will be getting any change to DPS/utility for hunting as they're now on par with most every other class.... yay.

Keroc

Asaraii said:

I've been really busy adulting and not overly motivated to do a lot of looking into all the changes, but uh... can we have a way to change someone's Sire back? I spent 25 freaking minutes trying to figure out how to do it before asking for halp and finding out that we can't do it right now.

RP, house stuff, etc etc, pls halp, mayday mayday mayday

We'll hopefully get rituals in sometime in the coming week.

Asaraii

Yay! Thanks @keroc! I cannot have that rotten Ve'kahi blood TAINTING THE PURITY AND EXCELLENCE OF HOUSE D'BAEN.



(Joking, pls nobody take offense).

Aishia

2170 might be a bit of a praenomen bashing buff at least.

Riluo

Not so sure on that as it is only for one path. But at least those who use that path might see a slight benefit over a long period of mid-level hunting.

In general the whole vampire changes are not as good as hoped which is disappointing as is the overall feel of the recent liaison round is kind of muddled. Perhaps I am a pessimistic. Then again the blood purify report is a great idea as I see it helping some people who struggle.

What I do like is the idea rituals are returning in one form or another, so that is a positive.

Neoma

Thanks @keroc for looking at bringing back the binding ritual, hope you will think about the vision ritual also.

Riluo

So happy to see a few rituals returning. Thank you thank you

Ilyon

For those wondering, the rituals are:

Binding
With this ritual, you may permanently change the sire of a Consanguine by infusing them with your own blood.

Revelation
Peering deep within a Consanguine to their very past, you can ascertain all who they have Embraced in blood.

Union
With this ritual, bind two engaged lovers together in a blood union.

Vision
Peer directly into the blood of another Consanguine and discern the one whose blood they were gifted with.

Gelding
Castrate a Consanguine from furthering their blood lineage. This ritual is requires the caster to be a House leader in order to be successfully completed.

Surge
A ritual that will expand your vampiric capillaries to safely accomidate more blood than what you could normally hold.

Shade
For those that have summoned forth their blood wisp, they will gain the blood shade protection, which will decrease the damage done from light and prevent the extremes of the noon sun. This effect will disappear should you come into contact with the sun while your wisp is dismissed.

Neoma

I take back my thanks to @keroc. This feels like a kick in the shins. I was sooo looking forward to the rituals. That was my favorite part of being a bloodborn and hematurgy but you made it inaccessible to me and many others. I guess you guys are just trying to force our hands into your plans.

Zsadist

@Neoma, I don't think they're trying to force anyone to anyone else's plans. There have always been advantages/disadvantages to those who actually have a House. Even when I was a Rogue, I was turned away from helping the Dominion and Abhorash quite a few times simply BECAUSE I was a Rogue. Honestly, if you worked with some of the Houses, I'm sure one of them would be willing to accept the Bouchard as part of their House. You'd probably lose the Bouchard name and whatnot, but maybe not. Its worth a shot.

Jensen

Every guild has a skill bonus for being part of it and not just holding class, its not surprising that houses took the same route

Neoma

@zsadist, well first I don't want to give up my name as you also did not want to. Then there is a certain responsibility to the people who join the kinship and became Bouchards, I am not about to run off and drop them. So the decision was taken to be a kinship working from a clan. But we meet obstacles where there should be none... like not allowed to have a treaty simply BECAUSE we are not a house, clans can and do have treaties. I still feel that was bs. And now we will not be able to manage our own affairs because we will need to depend that a house is willing to do the ritual for us. The more it goes the more it is clear we are getting squeezed to forgo what we worked hard for.

Erzsebet

You can still have treaties @neoma just not within the formal treaty system. Folk had treaties with each other long before the formal system was a thing. All you need is a scroll, something to offer another org, and another org that's open to the notion.