Increase Shop Limits

24

Comments

  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosomsMember Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2015
    I think 80 new ones would be overkill, but would love to see more tools and incentives for themed shops.

    Though each city having a sub market could be kind of cool, kind of like the old achaean subdivision for housing but small stalls, like a flea market. Each could be themed for the different cities, like Enorian have a souk, bloodloch an emporium, Duiran a...thing, spines a more different thing.

    Edit: More thoughts - stalls could be 2 shelves each so you could sprawl out and create little districts, easy to set up and take down and to provide smaller shop opportunities, or you lease out more spaces, and help encourage specialized places. I know I've furniture and food I'd love to sell, but really don't need a whole shop for them, just a shelf or two, that don't fit into the armoury or guild shop.
    Post edited by Areka on
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    AldricKendriErzsebet
  • KendriKendri Member Posts: 90 ✭✭✭
    I really like the idea of tiny, specialized shops.

    As for the bigger issue, I can see both sides about this. I've done shopkeeping before and I know in Imperian it can be very hard to even make enough for your taxes and adding more shops does push down the price of the wares. But so many organizations own shops which means those shops will not go back into rotation.

    I think adding five more new shops or so per city and then putting together something like what Areka says, tiny shops with just a shelf or two, perhaps purchasable with credits, or rentable as a gold sink. (Aka the money doesn't go to the city for shop taxes, you rent it up front from the artifact guy or whatever.) It would be a nice way for those who think they want to do shopkeeping but have never done it before and don't have to pay out millions just to find out they hate the finniky details of it.

    I think there is definitely room for improvement and innovation when it comes to this side of the game.
    ArekaErzsebet
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2015
    Aetolia is not imperium though. Most shops here sell (and make a nice profit off of) crafted stuff. More shops doesn't really cut into that - if someone likes my particular aesthetic for panties they are going to buy them even if areka is selling her own style for half the price. I've always sold my crafted stuff at a higher price than the norm and they still sell at a frequent rate because the people who like my stuff are fine paying 200 or 300 gold more.

    Utility stuff like cures and enchants basically already sell at only a little above cost with cures going for 1 gold. We've already reached equilibrium there and adding more shops isn't going to change those prices. Making the merchant skills accessible to everyone already drove the prices down years ago.

    People in aetolia can and will go buy stuff for rp and aesthetics which makes our economy different from other ire games which I mentioned in my first post. Having more crafting choices to pick from just means that people will be able to customize and play pretend more easily either as a merchant and crafter getting to design and sell or as a shopper finding the perfect outfit and accessories and props to fit their character and rp. That's a good and desirable thing.
    IshinErzsebet
  • KendriKendri Member Posts: 90 ✭✭✭
    I'm not against adding new shops, I just think that it can be handled in a much more interesting way.

    I love designing but Kendri as a character isn't much of a crafter and I have no desire to hold up a huge shop for the small amount of RP items that I may sell on her. The idea of a cheaper, tiny, specialized shop appeals because I do have some ideas that I would love to expand on eventually.

    Obviously just opening up more shops is the easier coding option, but it doesn't hurt to voice things that would be neat to see and I think beneficial to the atmosphere of the game.
    Areka
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosomsMember Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think we need more data from shopkeepers and whether or not they can pay their taxes before we state that the majority of shops make a good profit off of crafted items. A larger survey of the shops in the game would be useful in general - items sold, types of sales, diversity, most-frequent buys, etc.
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    Erzsebet
  • IrruelIrruel Member Posts: 670 ✭✭✭✭
    I don't know about other people's shopping habits, but when I shop as Irru, I barely even look at the price. You could price a hat at 50k and there's a chance I'd accidentally buy it.

    On lower levelled alt I have, which I played for a couple of months early last year, I had to watch what I spent. Food in particular was frustrating - for that I bought the cheapest rations I could find.

    For the clothes/armour/weapons I still chose stuff that suited the character though, even though I had to bash naked for a while before I could afford it. Because part of playing this game is having a picture of your character in your head. Or at least, in my head. Maybe not everyone is the same.

    The short term 2 shelf market stall idea is something I've been suggesting about once a year in each IRE mud since early Achaean days - but hey. Let's suggest it again. Maybe Oleis/Raz will like it more than the other producers have.

    For a new spin on the idea, consider cities being able to host fairs. Spinesreach might choose, once a game year for a full game month, to host a fair outside the city walls. People pay for a market stall, stock it with their best goods and other people turn up to shop.
    ArekaXeniaAldricIshin
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The trouble with temporary market stalls is that stuff decays or you might want an item for a situational scene or purpose. Not everyone wants or needs stuff at the same time.

    Also I don't think profit necessarily needs to be a factor. Vanity shops can be fun and desired simply because its another activity to do. Look at gwenith paltrow and gloop or whatever it's called.
    Ishin
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosomsMember Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Can you explain point 1? It's apparently going over my head, as I have absolutely no idea what you mean with why natural item decay or situational scenes in any way impacts or relates to having a smaller-scale shop stall versus the full whole shebang, nor the introduction of more versatile and adaptable introductory options into the larger view.

    Profit does need to be a factor of the discussion if you're going to quote a success rate?

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  • AldricAldric Member Posts: 790 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If I'm interpreting correctly @Areka, I think she meant in regards to the whole idea of hosting fairs outside the cities, as that insinuates a temporary shop that would end shortly, and therefore would not allow for purchasing those niche items at just any time. You'd have to actually wait to purchase those things until the next time a fair would happen.
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    Feelings, sensations that you thought were dead. No squealin' remember, that it's all in your head.
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosomsMember Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For fairs, yes, that is true, though that would be a whole new slew of RP potential, yeah? It could provide some really neat RP opportunities and crafting opportunities. However the primary idea of temporary shops (as in things that you can rent and let go much more fluidly than existing shops, and at lower cost, and set up/take down maybe with different limitations) would still be nice and I'd honestly prefer that to another 80 normal shops. It would allow more flexibility and having smaller shops becoming more numerous/less limited in volume would help address things.
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    AldricErzsebet
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    People are talking about short term stalls and markets that last a week but those would really only work if, say, everyone's clothing decayed on new years en masse and then they'd have incentive to go shopping for them. People tend to mostly go shopping for items when they need or want them so having one week a month when people can set up market stalls doesn't really work well with the game and staggered decay rates. Flimsy stalls that last 2 weeks but could be erected whenever are slightly better but I imagine they'd be a unicorns to micromanage.

    Your idea of minishops isnt what I was referring to. If you scan back in this forum section you'll find a thread I made months back asking for that exact thing as house upgrades.

    And profit is a eh sort of factor imo. Fun and engagement are basically the overarching goals shop stuff provides - profit fits under that umbrella but so does enjoyment from creative creation or entertainment from the rp it opens up or satisfaction from organization/scripting. People find a wide range of factors about shop ownership and management fun and engaging. Profit is only part of that and to some people it doesn't even factor in at all.
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To clarify about minishops here was my idea from months ago: http://forums.aetolia.com/discussion/1267/house-upgrade-shops#latest

    That's what I'd love best if I could have anything. That got turned down. Market stalls continue to remain only a special artifact auction item. Shop wings have been shot down. Etc.

    Increasing shop limits seems the easiest solution with least work for admin since all the other things we've proposed have been nixed which is why I suggested it, as a scaled down attempt to get us something to help the crappy shop situation . Its a bit frustrating that this is being objected to loudly since it makes it even easier to be denied along with all the others.
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosomsMember Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Moirean said:

    People are talking about short term stalls and markets that last a week but those would really only work if, say, everyone's clothing decayed on new years en masse and then they'd have incentive to go shopping for them.

    I disagree with this. If these types of stalls completely replaced shops yes, that would be frustrating - but renewing leases like with taxes or ads would make smaller scale businesses far more possible and feasible and allow a lot more freedom with a farther reach than more shops in themselves. Additionally, you are completely overlooking the RP opportunities provided with temporary markets - themed for seasons, or festivals, challenges for different events or RP-run things (Apple festival anyone?), and so on. There's tons that can be done with it, and specialty wares and so on. They become opportunities for destinations and activities rather than just directory searches for deals or keywords.

    If you are going to claim that profit is an eh factor, then you need to not use that 'most shops are profitable on RP items' as part of an argument. That's all. It either is relevant or it isn't, can't have it both ways. If profit is NOT the focus - then these smaller shop ideas are all the more meaningful and would be helpful as they would ease accessibility with less -losses-. We need to view things from new up and comers and people getting their toes wet, not just from established resources-a-plenty.

    That stated, I don't think anyone has completely objected to adding more shops to the game - the issue under disagreement is the volume. As it's all up in Admin's hands anyway, it is nice to brainstorm blue-sky ideas that might get picked up and reworked, especially with newer faces to the game who are interested in contributing and exploring.
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  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I really only addressed profit because people keep saying more shops will mean people won't make money. I cited reasons why that's not true but I don't think profit is the sole factor to consider.

    Sorry I'm on my phone so it's somewhat hard to post and I can't quote.

    Stalls on their own could be very fun for sure and I could imagine fun things to do with them. I just don't think they would really alleviate the problem of there being far fewer shops than people who want them. They would be a fun secondary idea though and the ability to test drive shopkeeping could probably generate more credit purchases if we had tons of shops available to buy :smiley: 
  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker VirginiaMember Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Idk about you guys but years and years ago when I had that Delos shop(think Kerryn owns it now?), the ONLY thing I sold were little woodcraft action figures and I made a killing.

    doll1234 a Paladin doll with real slashing action
    doll5567 a cute little Bahkatu doll

    People used to buy the unicorns out of them. Probably mostly RPers, and I never charged an arm and a leg for them(didn't have to!), but damn. I was always making new ones.

    ...I really wish I still had those old designs :(
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    learn.
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    Serrice
  • TragerTrager Raiding your underwear drawer.Member Posts: 574 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think adding more shops to an already horridly depreciated market would be, truly, silly. I already ignore most of the shops around in favor of 1-2 in particular, just because I know they always have those panties /without/ the sequins on the crotch.

    But seir-iously, I've always had the idea that if you opened and ran shops to make some sort of profit, you were wrong. Most people I know actually just use them for an RP point, right?
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's go-... Oh.


    Erzsebet
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosomsMember Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wouldn't go so far as to say you're wrong to try to make a profit with your shop/to prioritize a profit over just RP. I'd probably just close down for commissions if I was only covering raw cost with forging things - I can't always bash and with how much of a gold sink crafting is (and how I'm never going to earn back enough to make up for the investment in permits, the shop, and crafting artifacts), the shop making money rather than being a drain is pretty vital to my ability to keep crafting. It also allows me to occasionally be reckless with things like cryptic chests or pretty much supplying the guild shop out of my pocket, and so on.
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    Erzsebet
  • GwenithGwenith Member Posts: 487 ✭✭✭✭
    I don't know if adding more shops to cities will be the easiest code solution. At the moment cities are only coded to have 20 shops. Duiran had a little accident a few weeks ago where the output of CITY SHOPS was jumbled slight and it looked like we only had 19 shops. A new one was added but everything that was done for it was overwriting an already preexisting shop and I had to get Raz and Oleis to kill it so we didn't accidentally kill the original shop.

    I'd throw out again the idea of if we do get more shops, to make them out of city shops as it's only one shop area that needs to be recoded. You can feed them in in multiples of 1 instead of 4. Refugee area needs more love.

    Politics
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cities have had their max shop numbers upped (and lowered) in the past in aetolia. Adding new shops is a city command. It just fails when you hit the current limit (20). Given that those numbers have been adjusted in the past without incident it seems a reasonable assumption that it wouldn't be that demanding, code wise.
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress SwedenMember Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I still think it would be a good idea to cap ownership, or increase numbers. If not with 10-20, then 5 maybe? Yes, some people will only go to a certain shop because they know everything is there that they need, but for people like me, it's a flavor thing.

    Also, thanks to @Kerryn, I will soon be opening a tailor's "shop" in Delos. With some creative thinking it is possible to work around the issue of there being no shops for sale. :smiley:



    Gwenith
  • AldricAldric Member Posts: 790 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2015
    It'd be kind of nice to hear some administrative input in regards to this, so obligatory please-give-your-two(+)-cents-here:

    Do you believe that there are any issues with shop keeping currently, in regards to both the difficulty to acquire a shop, and the ways in which they're currently utilized?

    Should shops be something relatively easy to get, or should it be a privilege that's understandably hard to weasel your way into as such?

    Would more shops actually hurt the economy? If so, how do you think? You'll find in the thread thus far there have been some reasons as to how it would help it, but little besides over-saturation mentioned as something that'd hurt it.

    Is approaching this issue (if it is even viewed as one by the administration) something of interest to you?
    Post edited by Aldric on
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    Feelings, sensations that you thought were dead. No squealin' remember, that it's all in your head.
    MalokIshin
  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker VirginiaMember Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tbh I also have issue with one person owning like 50 frickin' shops, but I mean, I guess Capitalism gonna Capitalize.
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    learn.
    -Benjamin Franklin
    TeaniXenia
  • ParkerParker Member Posts: 40 ✭✭
    I have no issue with people owning multiple shops, especially certain people who stock a host of different items in each one. Eleanor and Erzsebet both come to mind immediately for this, as I know each has certain shops that cater to different needs or whathaveyou.

    10-20 shops is way too many, because as often as it comes up about people wanting more shops, it's not actually something 10-20 more people per city want - and, I suspect, if that many did open, people would just gobble up more shops and we'd get not as many new shopkeepers as intended. The profit debate is really hit or miss, and I doubt that profit should be a main reason anyone gets into business in Aetolia, as mentioned above.

    I'd be all for another 3-5 per city OR re-vamping the refugee camp area to make those higher value OR market stalls being made available more frequently. They all sound like pretty decent ideas to help alleviate the stress of finding a shop or space to sell your wares.
    Erzsebet
  • AldricAldric Member Posts: 790 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2015
    Parker said:

    OR re-vamping the refugee camp area to make those higher value OR market stalls being made available more frequently. They all sound like pretty decent ideas to help alleviate the stress of finding a shop or space to sell your wares.

    The only part there I disagree with I've bolded. While the refugee camps may be of relatively low value right now, and a boost to their worth would be beneficial, I do not agree that it would alleviate the stress of finding a shop on its own.

    Despite the fact that the value of the shops there is currently low, they're still quite in use. If anything, increasing the value of them would make it more difficult to find a shop by means of those people wishing to keep a stronger hold on them.

    After messaging the three people that seem to have the lowest amount of stock in said shops, I received two responses having no interest in parting with them, and one response expecting a gold amount that would rival that of a current, more expensive city shop.

    Even refugee shops as they stand are difficult to acquire.

    EDIT: That said, my favorite solution of them all that you proposed would certainly be the idea of making the market stall artifact a regular one.
    image
    Feelings, sensations that you thought were dead. No squealin' remember, that it's all in your head.
    IshinParker
  • ParkerParker Member Posts: 40 ✭✭
    Aldric said:


    After messaging the three people that seem to have the lowest amount of stock in said shops, I received two responses having no interest in parting with them, and one response expecting a gold amount that would rival that of a current, more expensive city shop.

    Even refugee shops as they stand are difficult to acquire.

    EDIT: That said, my favorite solution of them all that you proposed would certainly be the idea of making the market stall artifact a regular one.

    As to the first part, I must've misunderstood some of the previous posts because I thought the refugee camps got little to no traffic and weren't very well stocked. I haven't actually been there in probably longer than a real life year, at least.

    I'm not sure making the market stall a regular artifact would be the best, which is why I just said 'more frequently'. I was thinking it could be rolled into either an existing promo or put into the artifact packages that are sometimes sold through the website, if they plan on using those more(or at all) in the coming months. Just some thoughts : )

  • RilathRilath Member Posts: 14
    Imagine the credits they could sell if they had a tiered promo like the one a few months ago with gift bags and awesome things every 100 credits... Except at the end of the 5000 credit rainbow trail, a market stall! 

    For this ingenious idea to make Matt mucho dinero and give folks what they want, just give me a 10% kickback on credit sales for that month... I prefer credits over cold hard cash. Enough cold as it is. 
  • ErzsebetErzsebet Member Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Two of my three shops are house shops, for the record. Also, even with three of them and three level three artifact shelves, I still don't have enough space to stock everything.

    Re: Profit argument. Two of three of mine are regularly 'profitable', in that they make more than they have to pay out in profit, and they usually cover any losses for the third--but not by much. Profit for the year was 2337 gold across all three shops. And frankly, while my shops have covered their base credit cost, they're only profitable because I have 2500 credits worth of shiny that make selling jewelcrafts with real shinies at reasonable prices possible for me. Which probably won't ever be made up.

    Not saying zomg, absolutely no more shops. I just think 10-20 per city is ridiculous, and like Parker said, not really -necessary-.

    Think the following things would help:

    1) Three-Five more full shops per city.
    2) I really like all of Areka's mini-shop/temp-shop/flavour shop/smaller shop ideas.
    3) Also fairs. I think fairs would be awesome, especially for like, seasonal stuff. Themed fairs/festivals. Etcetera. Though, maybe make some of them consistent, with renewal of fees? So like. Annual Spirean Harvest Festival, or something, and you stock a shop with related-stuff, and it's there for a month or two in autumn--and at festival end, you can just pay a little fee for the next year and have it store your stockroom till the next one? Or...something.
    4) Also think upping shop capacity, or at least let the artifacts that allow you to expand space stack, would help the
    'zomg, so and so has 50 shops thing'. I was renting a fourth shop from Genocide for a long while for extra space.
    5) Really do think a use-it or lose-it policy would be helpful in keeping shops in circulation. In response to the person who said you can't always see shelves, maybe give chancellor/aides the ability to -see- all of the shelves?
    6) Give the refugee camp a directory.

    imageimage
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you are trying to make a profit, you will. I make on average 10-30k a day, if not more. If you are making 2k a year, that's not really profit, that's barely breaking even. So, I dunno, I feel like if we're worried about profit cuts, I kinda have a louder voice here...and I'd rather see more people engaged and enjoying shopkeeping versus me raking in what I do.

    You can use templates to bypass stock limits. Stock limits are based on physical items in the store room. This is why I explicitly only design stuff with materials that can be cached. That's part of the design shopkeeping metagame.

    5 shops, 10 shops, 20 shops, I don't think it'd be a huge difference in how I play as a merchant. I do think it would open up this gameplay to a lot more people and make things more fun, so I support it. Zero shops works too. Either way, I'm not really affected, but as a player, I do wish others could try their hand at shopkeeping.
    Ishin
  • ErzsebetErzsebet Member Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2015
    Disagreed. There are years where I get more profit than that, but it's not a matter of 'if you want to make profit, make profit'.

    ETA: To be clear, I only addressed that point because I feel like we're circling the other arguments repetitively, because you keep insisting we're anti-adding new shops when we're not, we just think 80 is asinine and unnecessary.
    imageimage
    TragerArekaPeriluna
  • IrruelIrruel Member Posts: 670 ✭✭✭✭
    Adding 80 overnight would be.
    Adding 3-5 per city, watching how it goes for a couple of months, then considering adding more - would be smarter.

    @erzsebet
    During the year when you made 2k profit, what was the total turnover?
    Ishin
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