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And yes, we could develop very minor shadowbound things via the npc mechanic spoken of, but to what end? It appears to me that the story arch and syssin redefinition is hinged to Severn returning (even part time), so trailing along crumbs isn't going to get us to where we need to be if he's not returning.
The small events won't do anything? Why? Because it's not carrying on with the big plot you've been waiting for? It's still RP, it's something interesting for the guild members to do and it's something you could potentially build up the guild around, if you just work together with Admin. However, yes, first the guild will most likely have to sit down and define what they are and why. Something that is detached from other things so it doesn't depend on them to function. I don't think the recent changes are what brought on this problem though.
Now, I actually did eventually decide to just pretend like the Shadowbound plot didn't exist anymore (after Jensen went MIA)... But it's quite clearly not the Guild's fault that the Administration dropped the event without actually... Notifying us.
It was running quite a while without an active Severn. Since Fae's been GM (which is like, 8 RL monthsish) we interrogated a shadowbound, a member of our guild was possessed by one, we were all collectively attacked and basically flayed alive by one before Severn stepped in, we were collecting shadows for a plot that didn't pan out, and Ishin got a vision... Some stuff with Ati happened too. I have countless hours of research stored up on our full member clan regarding the Shadowbound and its history... We held meetings on it and encouraged training events around it.
So it's not like it's been forever or that things weren't moving. They were, albeit slowly.
Anyway, I refuse to start forum rping. I am sure that after I talk things over with the Guild some, I will be emailing the Administration directly on the matter.
First, I understand the point being made on the matter of the Syssin class, rp-wise (MESSAGE-wise) and origin-wise, being very glaringly obviously Shadow-aligned. It really irks me to see the skills being justified for use by light-based orgs, not because of any really firm and logical rp reasoning, but because of the mechanical reasoning 'we have nothing of similar value/use to counter this with, it's unfair so we need it to full participate in combating it'. EHHHH... So I've several opinions on that line of thought I've been wanting to share, actually. (Before I do, let me emphasize that I understand where @Oleis comes from when he says the phrase, can't put the toothpaste back in the tube' but there is something really wrong with the mindsets that led up to it ever reaching this point, I think).
1. When did it become fun to play a game where you have everything everyone else has? It really does devalue it, overall. It takes away diversity, it takes away mystery, it takes away conflict. It takes so much away, and for what? This is more for the administration now, than the playerbase - I really hope changes like making clearly tether-aligned classes considered 'neutral' and therefore available to all are not being influenced by the playerbase fussing about not having something special to one side of the game.
2. This isn't just about Syssin, though. When you released the Sentaari skills as a neutral-based class, that seems almost more logical, but, it also then seemed alongside Syssin, it was done just to even the playing field for the main two sides, once again, trying to make something 'fair' by taking away it's own advantages.
3. Now the game is boring. I'm sorry. We're trying, and you're trying, but something isn't happening anymore. There is a disconnect with the magic. It's been a slow death we're all playing roles in overseeing and attempting to prevent. I personally think a lot of it has to do with the general mindset of 'take it away to make it fair. Take it away to make it easier. Take it away because it's a CHALLENGE.' The challenge is gone! The mystery is gone. The immersion is bleeding into mechanics. No matter how prettily you paint the picture, if the quality of your medium isn't there it'll peal away. We all need to stop with this 'give me' attitude and transform it into 'what can I do to help/what kind of interesting way can I make this work'. We've supplemented so many things with more rules, more balance - a lot of the streamline and update to old code? That's fantastic and I'm not bashing that at all. It's simply, some of the time, I wonder if there is enough foresight used when making certain decisions.
About guild and class separation.
Thankfully, at this particular point, the Daru as a guild are fine. I'm not worried, I don't feel threatened or overlooked because of the class no longer being the Daru's sole responsibility to provide. As a GM, I don't feel any more burdened than I already did.
- The Daru's RP has long been established and isn't so focused on a necessary use of our skills, but a faith-based way of life for the members who join. That has become the guild's main draw - the community, the rp, the niche - not it's skills. This doesn't really change anything for us!
- We've always been small. If not because of our, as I put it, niche RP, but because our skills are shared by not one guild - TWO - which means we have, since our foundation, never had any sort of special org-exclusive/identifying skill set that was all our own. So I'm going to first apologize, because while I certainly understand where everyone in a different situation is coming from - I really do - you're really not in a bad position at all as a guild. I can at least tell you there is certainly a way to make your guild engaging and fun, and active for the long-term without the direction skills have provided for years.
- This doesn't mean I don't want to see the kind of facelift the class will receive. I'm very excited and I think that the class has a lot of potential compared to its current state of lack-luster originality.
- Going off that last point.. Any changes made to classes. Revamps, for example, I would hope would be
heavily influenced by the RP, in some way, of the guild it originated from. I think that's fair, at least. It would be hard for me to wrap my head around any justification otherwise. I'd also hope, in that same vein, that guilds would be involved in those changes rp-wise, just as well.
As for GM-based concerns go.. I'm going to be honest that communication back and forth, and progress overall, has been very slow. Months-long-slow. While this makes things hard on me as a leader, where I may have promised my org something to look forward to and the members are left waiting in anticipation that slowly, gradually, withers away.. that's my only complaint. How that affects the vitality of my org. I'm left waiting, so they're left waiting, and the only thing orgs really have to move them along.. is their RP.
On the flip side of that, I've maintained my understanding that everyone is very busy, and I need to try to be as clear as I can about what I want so it's faster and easier to implement on their side. It's a two way street, guys. I've put myself in their position before, imagining how I'd go about trying to put in or run with xyz suggestions/requests with little information, especially if I were a new Celani - it's just as overwhelming, then, to me, as being uncertain about what to request/suggest as a GM.
I think the main thing then is to make the GMs feel more comfortable about approaching their respective Patrons/Celani by open communication and even periodic checkups to make us feel like, hey, you're there even when we don't need you at this exact moment, and you're looking to work with us on whatever we may need.
All that beings said. @Oleis has been amazing help to me as a leader, regardless of the pace, and I've appreciated his help. @Sarosh has also been especially welcoming, I've just not had the time (hey, we're all human, that's another thing to remember too - those OTHER lives we have) to really nail stuff down with her yet about the plans that have passed through hands.
tldr; Where there is a will, there is a way to make anything work. The situation with guilds/classes isn't as terrible as it's been sounding like, while opinions and concerns are by no means invalid either and shouldn't be overlooked - a lot of good points and suggestions were made. We need to stop taking so much out of the game as a whole, though, and start putting stuff back in to create new life for what appears to be a dying game environment.
For comparison in the past 2 rl years carnifex have had 3 things - a single scene to summon a new guild tutor (which I requested), an event to open a gate to the abyss (which I initiated and spent time running around and drawing together most of the threads and rp) and our new skill release (a standard thing every guild gets).
I've also never felt like the guild is neglected. Maybe I should, seeing all that you guys have gotten. O.o
Imagine -that- version of Aetolia and tell me its dying.
- guild construction costs drawn from banks to make expansion easy and more seamless for special new rooms and rp
- customization system for mobs extended to orgs for purchase
- more guild privs and perks and the ability to pick where to invest them
- custom role creation. Eg I could create a quartermaster role for my guild that has access to bank account and logs and the shop or a librarian role that has access to library and projects and orghelps
- limited mob pos for org leaders (letting me have Fred ask a derpy question over ct or have gruxmal hiss at someone about their soulstone use)
- guild artifacts we can award use of
- player notes (like imperians plog)
- notes next to player names on cwho/gwho to identify special roles
- shuffle of the current 1-20 rank system. Maybe one guild has 3 paths and you can advance in multiple directions
- special guild titles, ranks, path completions or honors you can earn
- limited and small quest creation system so org leaders can make basic quests for members to do and learn about the lore, feel more engaged in the org and have fun
- expansion of cityranks. 6 is just too few after 13 years
- threaded messages
- improved/modernized project system
I just felt like I needed to point that out, because in a way, saying it like that almost undervalues the amount of work she does (which I'm sure isn't the intent) and the effort it takes to lead with that kind of continuous momentum. Because it seems like people are trying to deflect her points by saying that it's somehow different for her because she's been very successful in her positions. But she started at the same points as everyone else, so her advice and opinions should be taken with that in mind. She's speaking with experience from similar situations.
Continue on, now.
- I made our own goals and ideals. I interacted with various members of the guild to help find what these were. People liked the anti-Dhar stuff, but there were also members who liked killing just cuz, people who wanted to be just grey, people who wanted to study science and research deathlore, etc.
- I made it about me. Through Moi's own story arc (she lies to herself a lot about being evil and truly thinks she's a good guy) and how her story influences her leadership, I shifted things towards a new tangent. *I* simply didn't want to lead a guild where we were just hurr hurr evil deathknights and so I opened it up for us to be more. I think this really needs to be highlighted - as a leader, in IRE, who your character is plays a MAJOR factor in your org. You're like a celebrity in a way and people like seeing snippets of what you're up to, and even more, they like being part of that. If people feel like they are part of something, they like logging in, and if they get to play a part in their org leader's story, they feel pretty important and change feels a lot more urgent and relateable.
- I also made it about them, the individual members. I do feedback. A lot. Surveys, random questions to various org members, RP with people to sense the pulse of how it's going. In both Spines and Carnis, I pay out credits to whoever wants to fill out a feedback survey. Knowing what people want is so helpful and makes things waaaay easier. Too many leaders think that they need to think up all the ideas, but it's the complete opposite. Our orgs are great for mining for inspiration.
- I reinforced changes, be that with NPCs, new rooms, crafted items, RP, events, etc - I am always looking for ways to quietly reinforce "this is what our org is". Walk around Spinesreach, ranging from the Academy to the government spire, check out stuff like CHELP COMMUNITY and you'll notice this kinda quiet background chatter and ambience that helps drive home the quirky terry pratchett meets communism culture we have going. You'd be surprised the kind of TONE you can set with that sort of thing.
- I introduced traditions and procedure, and supported them being done. Again, this is about reinforcing changes. Take, for example, things like the Carni inspection. This was something that I think maaaaybe was done before me, but it was very irregular. Now, there's a GHELP for it. You earn credits for hosting one. It's integrated into progression requirements. If you want something to get cemented in, create a lot of feedback from it and interlinking to it.
- I got diverse. No org should be about just one thing, imo. If we came across a character who was just x personality trait, we'd find them flat and gimmicky. Orgs are no different and should allow for a range of goals, roles, story exploration and archetypes. In Carnis, we have people who do science, some who just wanna kill whatever moves, battle priests and some who are scared kids who want to be badass soldiers, and we have enough different aspects of the Carni army, now, (we didn't, trust me, it's been kinda tiring to broaden us out to find ways for a range of people to slot in) for them all to find a place in the bigger picture. Flexibility is super vital.
- And, at the same time, I had a central vision. All of these different aspects ultimately fit underneath the banner of the Carni army, and our goal of preparing the world for the bigger bads. In one sense, it's a fun academic challenge, finding ways to spin stuff to fit within that central vision, but you also have to be willing to edit and say "Yeah, as much as I like this, it really isn't going to fit in..." and then try to find a way to achieve the same types of interests, urges and desires, within the confines of what your org is.
- Just cheat. I have an illusion arti and emotes. I will shamelessly use them to make events out of thin air. Admin will rein you in if you overstep. You can do a lot of pretty awesome stuff with illusions, emotes and maybe the creation of a new room (building commands are bamf!).
- Be explicit - sometimes it's great to get some admin help. If you want their help, help them. Don't just say "I want x for my org." Write up the entire item description, mob description, mob dialogue, etc. SOMEONE has to write this stuff - if you aren't detailing it all out, you're basically asking admin to do it, which is a huge time sink on their part. Presenting everything ready to go, versus just presenting an idea is a HUGE difference.
- Most importantly, imo, I stopped caring about what the admin wanted us to be. I mean, I didn't go like "f u we luv Dhar" but I also know that they are busy and I've led orgs long enough to know that admin cycle through, and stuff gets dropped or sidelined. Beyond that, I got to this nice point where I stopped second-guessing "Am I doing what the admin want?" - initially, I did that, a lot, but then I kinda realized that admin want the game active and for us to be enjoying it, so pretty much anything I do as a leader is achieving what they want, you know? Once I got to that point, it felt much easier and fun to get creative and have fun with my orgs. Carnis haven't had many events, as I mentioned above, but I never felt neglected - instead, I felt like admin were supporting me by just letting me run with what I wanted to try out. They trust me, it feels like, to figure out what works and they don't see a need to step in and fiddle with stuff, and they've always been nice about adding in little things to help augment that, like Iosyne making some progs for a soul disco ball to help highlight our new soul research aspect.
Shifting an org is hard work and requires a lot of time, especially if you want it to stick - this means changing more than just reqs and superficial aspects, but changing the entire culture, themes and mindset. It's one thing to introduce a radical new concept or entirely shift the concept of an org...but it's quite another to ensure the foundation is there for that change to last. The Syssin Syndicate is probably a good example of this. They were a cool concept but in the end there was a heavy cult of personality driving it, and without core fundamental changes, when those people left, the change didn't stick. Again, to cite our inspections, or the Tainting - guild rituals/procedures help nail stuff down and build foundations to reinforce the new theme even if the leader isn't there.
All this being said, and I appreciate the nice words about my leadership - let's be honest. I was a crazy lady. I was online actively playing 12+ hours a day. Now that I'm working again, I can't even imagine trying to build up an org. If we hadn't already reached a nice sort of "running" state, I'd have already stepped down. Thankfully, eventually an org gets to a place where activity begets more activity, and your members keep themselves engaged, but that can take time (this is more for the quieter orgs, I suspect Syssin aren't in this boat). That being said, I do think it's possible for orgs to shift their focus and theme on their own, as long as it's not to something they are diametrically opposed to. I mean, that's what Aetolia is all about, in the end - we shape the world.
THAT SAID. The way they are being disseminated here implies many things that aren't true, and are a bit insulting that are being implied:
A) the Syssin leadership haven't already considered these things
C) We are unhappy with the way the leadership already performs
D) We expect the leadership to have MORE time and even LESS of a RL than they already do just to cater to our whims.
E) We're a sack of whiny, spoiled brats who are lamenting the waning attention of admin daddy.
F) The entire concept that there is an "OUR PART" or "OUR SIDE" of the game that we want exclusive improvement to.
The original complaint has been completely derailed with suggestions that somehow our leadership should just try harder.
The original complaint was: It makes no sense for the Monk or Syssin classes to be untethered and the subsequent benefits for being in the guild under this illogical arrangement are below par relatively.
I went through ya'll's replies. Mostly, everyone actually agreed with this. Yet, somehow it has been shoved under the rug in favour of arguing the merits of our leadership's effort and how much attention we've gotten from divine over the last... long time.