New Multiclass Changes and Neutral Tether Classes

Moirean

The city can help too, remember. Hit me up ig or via pm. We've already got that-which-shall-not-be-named set up. We can definitely expand it to highlight the guild's role in the city. I bet Jensen could cook up some stuff with the ironmaw. I'm very open to doing what I can to help you guys at the city level.

Areka

Just because people can phase does not mean they have the faculty, inclination, or time to build the kind of political and information powerhouse that the Syssin organization is capable of. While there are certainly some difficulties, and having a 1 on 1 with admin would be really good for the organization to help ensure it stays on its feet, I do not personally see the doomsday that is being described. Some difficulties that need to be addressed, yes, but not an end that makes the organization pointless. The Syssin guild fits a certain archetype that is appealing and attractive if it is utilized and worked on. The den of thieves, masters of influence roleplay line is vibrant and powerful.

I suppose some of the reaction to this is largely because -most of the case made so far is about phase control- and not about the -guild-. I think a line needs to be drawn there and the focus of the conversation made about the guild rather than the class, for things that can help the guild really flourish in its niche since it has now been given more freedom than it had before.

In terms of @Oleis' offer - that sounds great, however a lot of us are going in blind. It feels like an imposition to ask for things or to discuss ideas. I do not even know what is -reasonable- to ask for, or what kinds of things are easily doable and won't require the sort of headache that I've inflicted on Damariel over some quests are. It would be really helpful if Admin could put together a list of examples of things that can be done and the type of turnaround or investment expected to make each happen, to give GMs something to start thinking on and looking at their guilds for. In general, the GM support's been kind of weird - it's one of the big reasons why I made the Leadership Liaison clan.

Could ya'll plop together some help files? Or snatch llead into a more official Leaders resource ala the Leaders newsboard with its own help files and place to discuss or ask questions?

I also don't know if it's feasible, but having a submittal process similar to Customization or Ideas but for organization work would be really helpful. Emails and messages get lost, but if it's in a register that can be easily checked, away from the spam of other questions, I think it would be easier to both voice ideas as well as check them.

EDIT: Example - liaison reports would probably be a better format.

ORGIDEA NEW
-> ORGIDEA NEW EMOTE
-> ORGIDEA NEW QUEST
-> ORGIDEA NEW CUSTOMIZATION
etec

ORGIDEA 1234 IDEA We would like a guild-specific emote for guild members actively in Templar class.
ORGIDEA 1234 DRAFT (or different formats for different types of requests) Snapping to a brisk salute, $(name$) draws $(his$) hand from $(his$) brow to $(his$) chest to thump against $(his$) sternum with a closed fist. Bladefire illuminates $(his$) hand as it moves, tracing a glowing line through the air.

etc.

ORGIDEAS
1837 ? Areka Emote We would like a guild-specific emote
etc.

Moirean

To riff off faerah, citing me and carnis is a bit of a straw man. I was playing 100-120 hours a week and we all know I'm a bit crazy. The cabalists are a better example - and you'll note that their identity took them a lot of time and a core group of people and they still struggle with numbers because people aren't joining often for the class. Eleanor has done great work there but it's taken extensive time and energy.

Kerryn and faerah both nailed it when they said guild's need more. Approaching admin works for one off stuff but that takes time and dev resources whereas the kinds of system changes we've asked for would let us do a lot more as gms to make things engaging - think of it like the class revamp that just happened or the new customization changes. Yes there is an investment of coding time but it cleans up and optimizes the underlying structure and would let players handle stuff on their own which would minimize admin work in the long run.

Moirean

Just a quick example of how to give guilds more autonomy and appeal: expand perks out so there are like 5-10 per guild, each pretty minor but thematically cool. Let gms invest the perks at ranks they want. This would let us enhance progression systems with cooler tangible rewards.

Faerah

Moirean said:

The city can help too, remember. Hit me up ig or via pm. We've already got that-which-shall-not-be-named set up. We can definitely expand it to highlight the guild's role in the city. I bet Jensen could cook up some stuff with the ironmaw. I'm very open to doing what I can to help you guys at the city level.

Thanks, Moi. Honestly, I have enough faith in my Guild to adapt. Still, I wager that you and I could come up with some fun things! I honestly do not think that the Guild was necessarily based solely around the class. I had already been introducing a belief system prior to the changes. So... that is not really the take-away of my initial post.

Interestingly enough, people keep imposing their own biases and vision of what the Guild is actually like from their limited view on the outside and I cannot really fault them for that. The Guild has plenty of RP and direction to go in, and we are hardly throwing our hands up in a big fit IC (or OOC, really).

But just because we are able to adapt does not mean that we do not see a problem in need of addressing. I feel like all the "you guys could do x,y,z" is a bit silly, really. While I am sure that it comes from the right place, it is incredibly condescending as it's telling us to do something we are already doing. Truly, we are not incapable of adjusting or moving forward, and we are certainly not going to sit on our hands and whine without trying to fix the issue.

Nevertheless, when the Administration makes a decision we feel is unfair - we will say so. Similarly, if I think that Guilds and their leaders are being shafted, I am going to say as much. We have just as much of a right to do that much as anyone else does, regardless of our whether or not we play likable characters in game or lack that same "likability factor" out of it.

Jensen

I'm pretty MIA until January. Combo of being home and aetolian burnout so I can't really help with the plan. I'm well and over the Syssin identity problem since Sev is MIA for over a year and isn't scheduled to be back yet, Shadowbound stuff has been disappointing at best, and everyone in their brother can be sneaky/assassin/thief/murderers.

We could pick up the mantle of Spirean defenders or CIA except that nobody but Gods raid our city and there isn't a war system to make espionage or recon to be of value. (Yes we can eavesdrop people or sneak around, but I don't care who you have sex with or robbing your shop. The secrets of this current world hold no value)

Teani

This whole issue with suddenly not having a clear purpose for the guild anymore because of no control over the class started back when multiclass was first implemented. The guilds were told back then to start working on creating a niche for themselves that was detached from the class. Some guilds have managed this better, perhaps because their guilds already had a solid base to start with. For example, I'm thinking of Templars, being White Knights, chivalrous military people and Carnifex being the dark equivalent.

Since guilds are now completely about RP and ideology, perhaps it might be a good thing to take this one step further and reduce the number of guilds? If two or more guilds have similar ideologies, why not combine them? There would be a clear purpose for the guild, likely more members since the players wouldn't be spread so thin and a fewer number would make it easier to manage for the Administration. Aren't there some guilds out there who are similar enough to just create different paths within a guild to make it work? Maybe I'm the only one who thinks so, I don't know.

Edited to say that I still think Syssin could run with the whole shady business, information gathering, assassin work. They're be the best people out there for it.

Areka

You're right. I don't know what you're doing. I also must admit I'm rather disappointed with the attitude and tone in the response. The suggestions were purely sparked by your own statement of:

"To me, it seems rather self-evident that if everyone can sneak about, eavesdrop and phase, then there is absolutely no point in a Guild that is based on espionage and assassination. No one will need to come to us, as they have, to assassinate people or dig up information on others because they can do it themselves. There is nothing unique about the Guild, and aside from a general sense of camaraderie, there is no point to being in it."

Which suggests something more than lack of control on Phase and the Shadowbound situation being put on pause, and does not warrant such a disparaging reply.

Jensen

Teani said:

Edited to say that I still think Syssin could run with the whole shady business, information gathering, assassin work. They're be the best people out there for it.

While it's associated with our group and fun to do, it has become clear that cannot be our niche in this current world. There's very little to almost no call for any of it. Information gathering? There's so little out there that's even slightly important. Assasin work? I post maybe 2 bounties per 3 irl months. Shady business? to what end, most of us don't value gold any more and when we want it it's easier obtained via hunting.

The guild is trying to figure out the "why." IE why we care, why we're working together, and/or why we exist.
The answers we get back are better defined by "how." How do we carry out our purpose = shady business, intel gathering, assassin work, ect...

The how is not the reason.

Ishin

Edited to say that I still think Syssin could run with the whole shady business, information gathering, assassin work. They're be the best people out there for it. @Teani

How, if everyone has the class?

Jensen

Also worth of note that the problem we're discussing vastly predates multiclass and has almost nothing to do with it (other than the guild we are focusing on is Syssin)

Second footnote, to say the Shadowbound thing is being paused understates the time span between very minor events. It would be more akin to the first 10% of the Templar/Carnifex creation event sprawling over 16 IRL months with little to no update in between.

Oleis

@Areka -- I really respect the comment about going in blind. I have to contend that it goes the other way, too. There are a lot of really great but vague suggestions about adding things to guilds. We saw just in two perks per guild that administrative ideas of what might be fun or helpful and guildmember ideas of what might be fun or helpful are wildly different. You (being everyone, not just Areka) have every right to ask us to add things without going into detail as to what you want, but all of us are rightfully gunshy about providing things you're most likely going to be disappointed in.

Don't feel like you're imposing by asking for things, especially specific things. Unfortunately, you really have to be prepared to hear rejection or countersuggestions. Please bear with us. We're going to be implementing some variety of what Areka mentioned above -- we've been tossing something similar around for months.

Rashar

Does anybody in Syssin pk aside from Ishin? And, I mean.. I think he works on Indo more than Syssin lately. So obviously class / guild / 'assassin' is a bit fetched.

It sucks that this was an argument that clearly stated one thing, people countered it, and now there are back tracks and shifting arguments and we're being accused of being condescending. I dunno.

I've never has any interest in Syssin guild because I don't associate it with -any- of the cool stuff it could be. I play the class frequently, but when I think of the guild I think of people idling at Inner Gate, or random people getting bustsd listening to random conversations, or I think of one member who pretty much should have wore a jesters hat. So either you're doing awesome stuff and it's all a front ( sneaky sneakyyy ) or I'm just not seeing any of the cool stuff.

Point being you guys could still utilize your class and do guild specific things and be neat. Nobody's hindering you, and it seems like you're mad that others can do the same (albeit usually without the benefit of a group of likeminded, coordinated individuals).

Areka

Well, with you guys going in blind - what's stopping you from approaching GMs and saying, "Hey, we're working on some perks, what are 5 things you guys would find useful or cool for roleplay or non-PvP?" so you can get a sense of where we view our orgs and roleplay and utility.

Edit: And by example of 5 things - to get a range of ideas or things to discuss or work on or consider or at least some variety for the brainstorming process.

Edit edit: We want that communication too. We want to be involved and to feel like our orgs are considered before hand, that at least we can throw in our 2 cents even if we don't know all of the details, or how exactly they might be applied.

Moirean

Agreed with areka. I'm underwhelmed by the carni perks (there's no need for more than like 3 hounds so an extra ten does nothing) and have messaged oleis already with questions/alternate ideas. That's kinda my own fault though as I was too busy to manage to login on the test server in time.

Ishin

@Rashar - I use Indorani class more because most of the PK I do revolves around team fighting, and Indorani are infintely easier to track 3P since almost all of our stuff has a 3p message. I can Unshroud to show people what my first tarot is giving, and I call in web for when Eclipse procs.

I prefer to use Syssin for other 1v1 stuff, but generally I stay in Indorani because lessers are basically the ONLY form of conflict that we have right now, and I want to be ready to do lessers at any given time. Especially seeing as sometimes there are lessers back to back, or sometimes there's a lesser, 30 minutes later another lesser. Or a lesser, then 1.5 hrs later another lesser.

It's not because the Syssin class sucks.

There's one other person who does fight in the guild, and several other people who are either working on it currently, were working on it, or want to work on it in the future.

Oleis

Areka said:

Well, with you guys going in blind - what's stopping you from approaching GMs and saying, "Hey, we're working on some perks, what are 5 things you guys would find useful or cool for roleplay or non-PvP?" so you can get a sense of where we view our orgs and roleplay and utility.

Edit: And by example of 5 things - to get a range of ideas or things to discuss or work on or consider or at least some variety for the brainstorming process.

Edit edit: We want that communication too. We want to be involved and to feel like our orgs are considered before hand, that at least we can throw in our 2 cents even if we don't know all of the details, or how exactly they might be applied.

Nope, I agree. I didn't make our fault in the situation nearly clear enough in my last post.

Jensen

Rashar said:

Does anybody in Syssin pk aside from Ishin? And, I mean.. I think he works on Indo more than Syssin lately. So obviously class / guild / 'assassin' is a bit fetched.

It sucks that this was an argument that clearly stated one thing, people countered it, and now there are back tracks and shifting arguments and we're being accused of being condescending. I dunno.

I've never has any interest in Syssin guild because I don't associate it with -any- of the cool stuff it could be. I play the class frequently, but when I think of the guild I think of people idling at Inner Gate, or random people getting bustsd listening to random conversations, or I think of one member who pretty much should have wore a jesters hat. So either you're doing awesome stuff and it's all a front ( sneaky sneakyyy ) or I'm just not seeing any of the cool stuff.

Point being you guys could still utilize your class and do guild specific things and be neat. Nobody's hindering you, and it seems like you're mad that others can do the same (albeit usually without the benefit of a group of likeminded, coordinated individuals).

The lack of a purpose hinders nonlesser/bounty pk. Unless you want to go kill people or start problems unprovoked or without a goal in mind. I stopped pking because there's no purpose in it for me and quite of a few of the guilds pkers or aspiring ones have left or stopped playing due to the lack of purpose driven pk.

It's also worth rerererereaddressing the point or driving it home that we're still bound within the rails of our new shadowbound enemy direction. I really want that arch just to be dropped entirely since it's unable to be implemented any time soon (Not blaming anyone since it's hard to focus on a small group when bigger issues are already understaffed.) But training/rping people to be ready for an enemy that isn't coming and has only made a handful of appearances in over 16 months is exhausting work for an underwhelming outcome.

Moirean

As a tangent to oleis' post about implementing org submissions that really would be great. Sometimes it feels like you're doing your guild a disservice if you aren't a builder or guide or liaison or have god friends because you don't have a pulse on things or a line of communication. When I lost liaison and now with my schedule getting super busy I sometimes feel like I'm doing my guild or city harm by not making time to do non leader stuff in other volunteer areas which is kinda crazy to feel. Expanding llead out into an official thing or including more previews updates and discussion on leader board would be nice to keep us in the loop more.

Rashar

Nah that makes sense, @ishin. I wasn't saying it was a bad class, hell it's my most effective pk class. Just replying to the 'assassin/bounty' point that was made. I get you though.

Aryanne

The only thing I read was Ishin's initial post, so if what I am about to say is completely already been beaten to the ground, my apologies:

I feel like Ishin's argument is being largely... Ignored? Dismissed? Misunderstood? Sidelined? None of those feel like the right word.
I feel that the reason his argument is being treated like it is (whichever way that is) is because he is in the syssin himself. As such, he is being approached as if he is asking for something specifically for HIS guild, HIS baby. As if he wants something to benefit HIM. He isn't at all. He is saying "All classes should be treated equally and as such, all classes with a clear RP'd tether should be attached to the appropriate tether."

This is not being done. Syssin and Monks are very clearly not ONLY RPd, be very clearly skill-based in one tether or the other. However, they are not actually tied to said tether, for whatever administrative decision occurred years back when tethering came out.

This should be changed to make sense. However, I get the sense that since it is Ishin, a member of a guild that would "Benefit" from this change, it seems like he's asking for special treatment. If people who who never stepped foot in the Syssin/Monk guilds made the same argument, I expect it would be looked at from the rational, 1000 foot view it is actually being argued from.

Soo.. tl;dr - Don't treat this argument like Ishin is asking "Change this for MY people" treat it like he is saying "Change this for THOSE people." Ignore WHO is making the argument, take it simply upon its own validity. If we threw, lets say, Rashar's name in front of those words, would they be responded to differently? (obviously the 'right' answer is no, but I do not think it would be the honest one)

Kerryn

Oleis said:

@Areka -- I really respect the comment about going in blind. I have to contend that it goes the other way, too. There are a lot of really great but vague suggestions about adding things to guilds. We saw just in two perks per guild that administrative ideas of what might be fun or helpful and guildmember ideas of what might be fun or helpful are wildly different. You (being everyone, not just Areka) have every right to ask us to add things without going into detail as to what you want, but all of us are rightfully gunshy about providing things you're most likely going to be disappointed in.

Don't feel like you're imposing by asking for things, especially specific things. Unfortunately, you really have to be prepared to hear rejection or countersuggestions. Please bear with us. We're going to be implementing some variety of what Areka mentioned above -- we've been tossing something similar around for months.

This, this sort of really frustrates me personally. Back in July of this year, I emailed @Oleis and @Razmael about the guild situation and included a few suggestions of perks as well as what direction I was looking to push the guild. I made it clear I was willing to work with them and do whatever to help, be it writing descriptions, etc. No one came to me. No one asked. I heard nothing, other than 'We'll be giving you guys perks. But you'll just have to wait till it's done.'

Oleis

Let me start by saying that our communication to you was terrible, and I owe you an apology for that.

Let's break down the main points in your email:
- The guild's ostensible neutrality (in that it offers a neutral-tethered class) makes it hard to manage apprenticeships without compromising the RP'd ideals.
- The neutrality of the class imposes neutrality on the guild while RP and political culture imposes Spirit-adherence on the guild.
- This conflict makes life very difficult for the Sentaari. (I agree with this assertion).
- We'd like an event to release a class vendor so that the guild may focus on roleplay instead of worrying about the class dispensing.
- Additionally, it might be great to have perks for guilded Sentaari. You also elaborate on the flavor of the perks, which would be great things to implement.
- You express sentiment that the Syssin should join you in releasing a class-dispensing mobile.

We told you, in a delayed and inadequate fashion, that most, if not all, of those things were on our list. I was in the process of designing this multiclass revamp when you sent it. You'll notice that everything except the guild-centric event was included in this revamp, and the door is open for flavorful RP perks.

I completely understand your frustration, and I want to work to remedy it. But it's not like you can say we ignored the content of your suggestions.

Ishin

I'm confused as to where this 'neutrality' is coming from.

Nothing is neutral about EITHER GUILD except for we're the home for neutrally tethered classes.

Oleis

Ishin said:

I'm confused as to where this 'neutrality' is coming from.

Nothing is neutral about EITHER GUILD except for we're the home for neutrally tethered classes.

Considering that the very next bullet point emphasizes the necessity of the Sentaari to make nice with the Spirit world, I would think it's relatively clear that I was referring to the neutral tether. Let me edit my post to clarify.

Kerryn

Oleis said:

Let me start by saying that our communication to you was terrible, and I owe you an apology for that.

Let's break down the main points in your email:
- The guild's neutrality makes it hard to manage apprenticeships without compromising the RP'd ideals.
- The neutrality of the class imposes neutrality on the guild while RP and political culture imposes Spirit-adherence on the guild.
- This conflict makes life very difficult for the Sentaari. (I agree with this assertion).
- We'd like an event to release a class vendor so that the guild may focus on roleplay instead of worrying about the class dispensing.
- Additionally, it might be great to have perks for guilded Sentaari. You also elaborate on the flavor of the perks, which would be great things to implement.
- You express sentiment that the Syssin should join you in releasing a class-dispensing mobile.

We told you, in a delayed and inadequate fashion, that most, if not all, of those things were on our list. I was in the process of designing this multiclass revamp when you sent it. You'll notice that everything except the guild-centric event was included in this revamp, and the door is open for flavorful RP perks.

I completely understand your frustration, and I want to work to remedy it. But it's not like you can say we ignored the content of your suggestions.

No, no you didn't ignore the content. But we're discussing the back and forth of communication concerning perks. Your comment felt like a slap in the face for you to say that you're going in blind and we should approach you. When I did in fact approach you, back in July. That is my issue and why I'm upset.

Will I be contacting you all about other perks? Yes. Because I want to do everything I can to make my guild a fun and engaging place to be. But to do that, we all need to be on the same page and we're not.

Oleis

Kerryn said:

Oleis said:

Let me start by saying that our communication to you was terrible, and I owe you an apology for that.

Let's break down the main points in your email:
- The guild's neutrality makes it hard to manage apprenticeships without compromising the RP'd ideals.
- The neutrality of the class imposes neutrality on the guild while RP and political culture imposes Spirit-adherence on the guild.
- This conflict makes life very difficult for the Sentaari. (I agree with this assertion).
- We'd like an event to release a class vendor so that the guild may focus on roleplay instead of worrying about the class dispensing.
- Additionally, it might be great to have perks for guilded Sentaari. You also elaborate on the flavor of the perks, which would be great things to implement.
- You express sentiment that the Syssin should join you in releasing a class-dispensing mobile.

We told you, in a delayed and inadequate fashion, that most, if not all, of those things were on our list. I was in the process of designing this multiclass revamp when you sent it. You'll notice that everything except the guild-centric event was included in this revamp, and the door is open for flavorful RP perks.

I completely understand your frustration, and I want to work to remedy it. But it's not like you can say we ignored the content of your suggestions.

No, no you didn't ignore the content. But we're discussing the back and forth of communication concerning perks. Your comment felt like a slap in the face for you to say that you're going in blind and we should approach you. When I did in fact approach you, back in July. That is my issue and why I'm upset.

Will I be contacting you all about other perks? Yes. Because I want to do everything I can to make my guild a fun and engaging place to be. But to do that, we all need to be on the same page and we're not.

I was speaking in generalities. Historically, 90% of the people we deal with expect action without offering much direction, which is entirely understandable but subject to a lot of wiggle room. I wasn't trying to include you among them, and you deserve a shoutout for your thoroughness. In this way, though, you are one of a few exceptions that prove the rule.

Teani

Ishin said:

Edited to say that I still think Syssin could run with the whole shady business, information gathering, assassin work. They're be the best people out there for it. @Teani

How, if everyone has the class?

The Syssin can still play it out as being better at it than anyone else through RP ( and with the new perk making it possible for them to spy on other spies in a way, right? Or did I misunderstand that perk?). As for assassinations, I'd say that an assassin wouldn't care about tethering much, as long as it pays and it can't be traced back to anyone specific.

When it comes to information-gathering, see if you can't work together with the Administration so that they continue to leave tidbits of information about upcoming things for Syssin to find? It might not even have to make sense at the time or it might be something very small and local. At least it would give you some RP to work with.

Just an idea I came up with, not sure if it's been implemented already, but if not, adding a way to write extensive logs for the Admin on NPCs would perhaps assist when it comes to running long-term events, especially if information leaks are going to be part of it. If the Admin in charge of the small event is unable to continue with it, it should be easier for others to pick it up or even to nudge it along since there'd be information to work with.

--- readlog NPC#1234 ---
Using this mob for a small event. /
* Backstory:
* Desired conclusion:
* Done so far:
* Information leaked:

Oleis

Teani said:

Ishin said:

Edited to say that I still think Syssin could run with the whole shady business, information gathering, assassin work. They're be the best people out there for it. @Teani

How, if everyone has the class?

Just an idea I came up with, not sure if it's been implemented already, but if not, adding a way to write extensive logs for the Admin on NPCs would perhaps assist when it comes to running long-term events, especially if information leaks are going to be part of it. If the Admin in charge of the small event is unable to continue with it, it should be easier for others to pick it up or even to nudge it along since there'd be information to work with.

--- readlog NPC#1234 ---
Using this mob for a small event. /
* Backstory:
* Desired conclusion:
* Done so far:
* Information leaked:

We have this mechanic on our end, and it's indeed very helpful. Feel free to message me or your org patron (if s/he is active) and we'll add them for you.

Aryanne

To me, the idea of the Syssin being an "assassins class" has always felt extremely LULZY in a world with no permadeath.

"I'M GONNA SNEAKY KILL YOU"
"Oh? Okay, whatever, slightly annoying, but I'll just get back to whatever someone wanted to kill me for after I go take a pee break and resurrect"