New Multiclass Changes and Neutral Tether Classes

Ishin

I'm going to c/p a conversation between @Oleis and myself. If anyone else wishes to chip in with your thoughts and opinions, please feel free, even if they are contradictory to my own.

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "In one previous conversation or another(or on forums, I don't really remember), it was mentioned that Syssin and Sentaari(those two specifically) would get special perks due to being untethered. It's not that guild-only signs and phase-sense hidey aren't cool, and Sentaari/Daru have the same exact perks despite Monk being untethered, but I think some people might feel that that's not uh...'enough', because the guilds are untethered? What are your thoughts on that?"

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "That's a bit out of context, unfortunately. The idea was that we were establishing a class vendor to give away those neutral tethered classes without the guild's involvement, and they would get benefits as a tradeoff for THAT. As the idea evolved, EVERY class is now available in a similar manner, so EVERY guild-tied class gets the benefits. The deciding factor wasn't the tether but rather the availability of the class, if that makes sense."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "Hmm...okay, that's cool. So the neutral tether classes won't get anything outside of what we already have?"

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "Correct, because the other guilds are now in the same boat that we would have put you in, in that hypothetical situation."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "They are, and are not. 80ish% of the guilds are tethered to one side or the other. Syssin and Monk are not. Shapeshifter isn't either, but it never has been. Do you see what I mean? So now we basically have a darkie guild, and a lifer guild, whose classes will be spread out along both sides. Will either class get tethered, or...what?"

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "No one's getting tethered. I think you're
still approaching this from the angle that Syssin were going to get something because they were untethered. That was never the intention at all. Syssin were getting something because we were giving their class away."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "No, I'm not. I don't think. Let
me try again. Syssin are a dark-aligned guild. Shadow tether. About as Shadow as you can get, RP-wise. Yet our class is untethered. Monks are in a similar boat, I think, except they are
lifer/Spirit. But their perks are the exact same as Daru, who -are- tethered. Our skills are unique, but anyone with phase and 2k credits can basically avoid phasesense anyway. I don't feel like I'm trying to be greedy, I just want fair treatment ."

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "I really, really don't understand how
you're getting unfair treatment. We're literally treating the Syssin like any other guild."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "Then tether us to the Shadow side please."

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "To what end?"

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "And monks to Spirit."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "So that you are treating us like the other guilds. The other guilds are tethered. We are not. Sentaari are not. I understand that Syssin is a very popular class, and that you guys make a LOT of money off of our class in one way or another(same with monk, tbh), but I do not feel we are getting equal treatment at all."

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "I guess what I'm asking is: What about
being untethered puts the Syssin guild at such a disadvantage?"

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "Having never been a Syssin player, I
genuinely can't understand that. But I know you firmly believe it, so I want to see where you're
coming from."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "Okay give me a minute, let me see if I can relate it to you properly."

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "Sure, take your time. "

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "Not trying to be insulting or
anything, please believe me. Like I said, I just want fair treatment, so I want to make sure I'm
being clear. Sometimes I feel like I'm being clear but I'm drawing pictures in abstract maths >.>."

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "Oh trust me, I feel you. I just haven't
quite had an experience where someone articulated why there's a disadvantage to being neutral. Just that neutrality is bad. I honestly do want to understand."

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "We're in more of a position than ever to
fix it."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "Okay. My tell is going to be
really long I think, so please bear with/prepare."

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "My body is ready."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "...lol."

(Breaking this one up so you guys can read it in parts and it's not one huge chunk of text)

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "Okay, let's see if I can do this. Firstly(1), the 'neutral' thing was tried with Ashtan. That place ended up getting sunk to the bottom of the sea. There literally -aren't- any neutral orgs at the moment. There are two 'sides'. Spirit and Shadow. All four cities fit very firmly into one side or the other, and only Duiran and Spines are anywhere near the middle. But I don't feel like either of those cities at all are near enough to the middle to be potentially 'middle-ground', as it were. Both are still firmly entrenched in their tether. If anything, they might deserve their own tethers, but that is probably a discussion for another time.

Secondly(2), Syssin have only been neutral as Shadowsnakes and as the failed creation called the Syndicate. For the Sentaari/Monks, they were most neutral when it came to their old 'Balance' teachings. Right now, I feel that their current and longstanding RP puts them very firmly on the Spirit side as well. Next, people literally come to the guild to complete tasks. I have tasks now from various people that they want this done, or that done. If anyone and their
mother can do this, what is the point of the guild itself? Do you see what I mean? It would be like if everyone had CIA training, or access to it. In such a case, what good is the CIA itself? Zero, you know? A lot of our value to outside parties is from -nobody- else being able to do what we do.

Thirdly(3), our skills literally draw on shadows. Cloak/ghost, warding(ancestors of Syssin. Why
would they protect outsiders/fake Syssin?), 'shadow' balance, hypnosis, marks+conjure darkness, etc etc. The theme and mood of the class is very dark/shadow/assassiny, but Lumis and Templars are running around with it despite being Spirit tether. Lastly(4), Phasing is the type of skill that when everyone can phase, it sorta becomes useless. It's like hide vs heatsight being an endgame skill/a skill that almost everyone has anyway in some shape or form.
Heatsight/shadowsight/lifevision/etc."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "Tbh I was sorta a bigger fan of the class compatibility method, but I understand why you guys went to tethers instead <--this guy had Templar and was wrecking people with it as a Spirean."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "Also, it would be 'fair' to us
if all the other guilds were untethered too. Does that make a little more sense?"

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "Okay. I'm going to approach it from a
different angle.. Let me know what you think. Since you're no longer solely responsible for handing out the Syssin -class-, why not take it upon yourselves to tether the Syssin -guild- to the Shadow side of things? You're not forced to allow anyone Spirit or even NEUTRAL, for that matter, into your guild."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "As in, it's hard to see where
we're being treated like other guilds. If other guilds were untethered, so everyone being able to
share class is less likely to hurt them. Because the only people who'll get class are hard-coded
allies anyway."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "We already do that. Only
Spireans are allowed to become Syssin. Outsiders are looked on with derision."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "We can't let in Duiranites or
Enorianites or anything like that because we are a Spirean guild and a Shadow tether guild. We COULD, but that would be like...dumb."

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "The whole point of these changes is that
the guilds don't own their classes anymore, so I'm honestly not concerned about how your class plays into the world scheme. Now you're free to just focus on being a cool guild. The only people who stay in your guild are people who want to be -Syssin-. Guild members. Not just apprentices of the Syssin class."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "I'm not really talking about the guild, atm. I'm talking about the class itself."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "Faerah is GM, and GM for a
reason. I hate being GM with a passion."

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "Well, that's kind of where we're at a
disconnect, then. Because the Syssin guild is no longer in charge of the Syssin class."

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "Nor is the Teradrim guild in charge of the Teradrim class."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "And I feel like @Kerryn might feel similar to how I do."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "Then why not untether the other Shadow classes, then? Do you see what I mean? It would be the exact same. Imagine if a Carnifex went walking down to Delos and saw someone in the Templar guild with his class. Or some Sentinel spotted a Vampire chilling with his raloth."

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "We're not going to untether the other
classes because it's mechanically impossible to balance Carnifex regularly being in league with
Luminaries in the same team fight. Syssin were designed (and continue to be refined) with that in mind."

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "It is not unreasonable to consider a Syssin who does not subscribe to undeath. It is completely unreasonable to consider a Luminary who does."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: ":/ Let me explain about the
guild then, a bit. Our actual -guild- has a negative view on undeath itself. The vast majority of us dislike vampires. You have to ask -permission- to even become Undead, or you risk getting the boot."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "You could also make the same argument about Sciomancers. Purely shadow tethered class. Does not require undeath in the least little bit. Why are they tethered and we are not? The split is Shadow and Spirit, not Life and Undeath anymore."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "Sciomancers clearly draw on the Shadow element, just like Syssin do."

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "Let me approach it like this: If you accept the fact that guilds no longer have claim or control over their primary class, why do you care if the class gets tethered? It's undeniable that it would only serve to restrict the choices of other players, and it grants you literally no benefit."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "May I ask why you care that
classes are tethered, in that same consideration? Also, I have listed the benefits a few times, I
feel like. Perhaps not clearly? It is literally that if everyone has the class, it very, very much
devalues the class itself. Like if everyone had monk. The class would not be worth nearly as much. Because everyone would have it. The same for Syssin class and its skills. Phase, like I said. That is a big one, but not at all the biggest. For Monk class it would be Telepathy and Kaido, though Daru do have Telepathy, so mostly just Kaido. A whole skillset that is devalued because everyone has it. I also feel like you are sidestepping my statements a lot by trying to pitch your side to me instead of addressing my concerns ."

(Tells): You communicate to Oleis, concealing your voice's origin: "I'm not trying to be rude, so
please don't take it as such. I simply want to have an honest and forthright conversation about this."

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "Okay, we've hit the root of the problem
here, so I can now address your concerns directly. You want control of the class. You want to retain its value by keeping it exclusive. And I respect your right to HAVE that opinion, but I don't respect the opinion itself, if that distinction makes sense. It holds no sway with me. In general, I don't care about the existence of tethered classes. However, tethering an existing neutral class would involved taking it away from an enormous number of people who already hold it, solely because you want fewer people to have it. I get where you're coming from, but it's too self-serving an attitude for me to adopt as the caretaker of a multiplayer game."

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "I guess what I'm saying is that you can't
put the toothpaste back in the tube."

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "I need to go back invis. Feel free to shoot a message/email/forum thread, whatever feels good if you want to continue this conversation. Have a good night, dude."


I would like to end with the fact that I don't care that the GUILD is no longer sole arbiter of the class. That's fine. I told him myself I 100% support this change to how class is distributed. My issue is that I feel very strongly that both my class and the Monk class are not being treated fairly in this situation. I have both Syssin and Monk myself. If they tethered both, I would gladly forget my monk skills(they'd go dormant for me), and be happy. Maybe people on the other side cannot say the same about Syssin, I don't know.

I would ask each of you to think long and hard about how you would feel if it were your class instead of mine in the neutral tether slot, and what you would want done. I feel like Monks may even get shafted harder on perks, where we Syssin get shafted harder on utility. Monks have the same exact perks as Daru.

Lastly, I would like to thank Oleis for his time, even if I don't feel like I ever really made my point to him - though I don't feel like that was from a lack of trying on my part. Most of you know me and you know how I get, so I think that my effort to be not-rude and respectful is very obvious.

Toz

Though I don't play any more, monk and syssin become less effective the more other people who have them. With phasesense (even though it didn't work when I quit...), abduct and phase, a Syssin is a hard counter to a Syssin. You lose your advantage at group fighting, because both sides will be abducting (or one Syssin just unphases both), you lose your 'stealth' utility, and in general the more Syssin there are, the less useful YOU are going to be. Similarly for monk, telepathy counters telepathy and banish counters banish. The unique'perks' of both classes at least partially rely on them being unique in the fight - a monk can shut down your telepathy leading to a long game of mind-chess while you try to get them locked and then interrupt their lock of you, while they do the same, then you're dropping monoliths and it just makes things more complicated on the whole. Plus, it makes you as a monk less useful in long-range fighting if there's another monk on the other side of things. I'm gonna kinda cut the ramble short, but I definitely think if both classes stay untethered, there needs to be some slight mechanical differences provided for the two tethers that gives each a unique edge in a certain area. Sort of re-specialize/refine the role of lifer Syssin and shadow Syssin so they're not canceling each other out - more beneficial for one to be phased, for the other to not be, maybe. Same for monks, encourage one to want melee range and one to want long-range, though I admit this might not solve the problem.

Haven

I still maintain that the solution is to divorce dueling and skirmishes into two distinct/different skill groups.

Moirean

You could just have it so tethered people exist in their own plane of phase (shadow-phase and light-phase) and someone can be mindlocked simultaneously by one person from each tether. Cityless people would default to the tether they were last part of.

Xenia

Ishin said:

(Tells): The Divine voice of Oleis echoes in your head, "We're not going to untether the other classes because it's mechanically impossible to balance Carnifex regularly being in league with Luminaries in the same team fight. Syssin were designed (and continue to be refined) with that in mind."

I think this probably nails the problem on the head why all but 2 classes are currently tethered. That being said, I would have to agree that there is something special about the Syssin and Monk classes in that they both give invasive access into the game that other classes do not. IMO, a single monk can offer more in a fight than a single Syssin, while a single Syssin can traverse and access things that most others can not; it's what has made them such coveted classes. However what I'm hearing from @Oleis (Please let me know if I'm wrong), is that the PK system has been balanced to allow for these 2 classes to work on either side of the combat tethers whereas the other classes are not. It makes me wonder if tethering skills is more about ensuring balanced PK with natural allies than any sort of guided shape to the RP of the world.

Whatever the case, it sort of complicates the issue, because I'm of the mind that it will eventually devalue the skills of those two untethered classes, make them something akin to shapeshifting in that -everyone- will potentially have them, thus undermining some of the vitality that those guilds once held.

Rammus

derail, sorry.

Alissandra

Syssin are now the fifth shape-shifting form. WERESNAKES!!!  the only perks we get are an official burrow, an official channel, and official credits. Not to sound cynical, but I think that is a very accurate analogy. 

I agree with Ishin. Give all the shadowy folks that want it Syssin, all the lightweights Monk that want it and you've satisfied the "need" to take control of the class out of the Guilds hand without devaluing the classes themselves. 

That is about as nice as I can remain so I will stop there, cheers. 

Rammus

Maybe if you syssin folk weren't so snoody in the first place about class, it wouldn't be like this. Karma is a B word.

Rowena

That weresnake suggestion isn't as crazy as it sounds. I'm for it.

Kerryn

I'm going to be honest here, I was pretty disappointed with the perks given to my class. I feel that there was so much potential to really make each one special and -help- guilds flourish. But instead all that was focused on was code. The extra mind prints are nice. The halved balance for taking your first stance is pretty... useless. Pretty much everyone takes a stance upon defup and to switch stances after that point takes absolutely -zero- balance. So in essence we are saved a literal second upon defup. Maybe I'm overlooking something, I admit I'm not a PKiller.

I plan to rp that unguilded and Darkie monks are 'fallen' monks that are not 'true' monks. Do I care that everyone and their brother has the class? No. But this change -does- hurt guilds. Sure, in the past people would join just to get class and leave and it was frustrating, but sometimes they'd buy credits which would benefited the guild. So now? I believe those guilds will see less income due to no one needing to be guilded. Being a small guild anyway, we need every bit of help we can get, so I can pass out those credits to novices.

I would have rather seen guilds given perks that help differentiate them rp wise from those that just have the class because they like the mechanics of it. To actually -reward- those long devoted guild members in the guilds. Instead, I'm left feeling like IRE really has written off guilds. It's now up to the GM's solely to make a guild flourish without any help really and if it fails who's fault will it be? The GM's, no matter how hard they work to take care of newbies and ensure they have a positive experience here in Aetolia.

Give guilds more of a point other than becoming over glorified clans, which they have been reduced to now. Give us perks that we can set up per ranks in the guild. Give members more reason to advance further in a guild. This is a game and people will do the bare minimum to get what they want. No matter how 'fun' the rp is to advance, it's a game they don't want to do all the work for something that amounts to a higher guildrank unless they want to be in leadership. Because they gain -nothing-. Absolutely -nothing- code wise after guildrank 3-5 (Whichever is full member).

For example if you gave each guild a unique endgame race that required they be guilded? Or access to slightly reskinned skills that really set the guilded people apart. "I'm a true Sentaari trained monk, look at this neat thing I can do that no one else can!" "That's neat! Where do I join?!" It would actually -help- the guilds. Those two examples alone, offer no imbalance of code. So there's no fighting of "Such and such is OP!" But it gives the guilds an actual -flare- that interests new players.

I am absolutely completely okay with everyone learning monk. It's a good change. But guilds are often the best way to introduce a novice to the game. But guilds need to be overhauled, instead of just "Oh, it's up to you to make your guild flourish, if you fail, I guess it's because you're screwing things up. Sucks to be you." I hear all the time from novices coming from other IRE games of how IRE has totally just done away with guilds or made them obsolete and honestly, this feels like that's what's happening in Aetolia and it saddens me to see, because there's so much potential to do things right to allow everyone access to skills while still helping GM's and guilds across the board to flourish. But it's not happening for some reason, one which I can't wrap my head around. Isn't improving aspects of the game a -good- thing? We the players have voiced our dissatisfaction with current guild system as a whole. We are telling you it needs help, we've offered suggestions on ways that don't imbalance code and are literally pleading with you to do something to address the issue. This change isn't addressing the -guild- issue. Guilds aren't permitted to move cities because it confuses novices. Shouldn't you -want- novices to join guilds first? As we're the ones helping to guide them and acclimate them to the game?

Alissandra

I was just talking to Ishin. Basically the Guilds' identities have been based on their classes. Now they can't do that, so the idea of a guild is a rather silly notion. It may warrant serious thought to get rid of guilds and replace them with organizations based on shared interest (combat, arts, smarts) rather than class. No class restrictions for the organization other than tethered for the cities. 

Rowena

Alissandra said:

I was just talking to Ishin. Basically the Guilds' identities have been based on their classes. Now they can't do that, so the idea of a guild is a rather silly notion. It may warrant serious thought to get rid of guilds and replace them with organizations based on shared interest (combat, arts, smarts) rather than class. No class restrictions for the organization other than tethered for the cities. 

That's what Achaea did a long time ago. Initially it had a guild system but moved to a house one. I like guilds. They have a lot of history, and shared ties with each other and cities. I'd be loathe to see that disappear into a blank slate.

Oleis

I only have just a few minutes this morning, so this is not going to be a terribly thorough post. I'll be unable to quote parts of what you've been saying or really dig into a lot of the things that are worth discussing in this thread until this evening, at which point I'm sure it will have... matured.

In designing the perks for guild sanctioned people, we had basic rules:
+ Could not actively punish non-sanctioned members. Just had to be gravy on top.
+ Could not be a huge hindrance if the sanction benefits went away.
+ Had to provide small mechanical utility.

If they seem cynical to RPers, it's because they are. There was and continues to be a way for Guildmasters to request roleplay perks for their guilds -- Razmael, the Patrons and I are always here for your requests and support. Sometimes it takes a while (looking at you, @nola, sorry boo), and sometimes it costs the org its in-game resources, but it's there.

With these changes, it's important that we double-down on that commitment. I have a really solid batch of Celani who are rarin' to do neat stuff for you. I have a beautiful new set of code that makes adding things like this much easier. This is for guildmasters and regular players alike: Before you fret, ASK. I had a couple messages that led with "It's unfair that you won't do X" without even asking if I would. In most cases, I was already planning on it!

All you have to do it ask. You may be told "no". I'm going to really politely say "no" to the idea of giving out 13 new endgame races. It's nothing personal! That's just a whole heck of a lot considering how many people like to sidehop. But I'm more than happy to talk about other ideas, through any medium of communication you might prefer. They can be guildrank based, guild-wide, whatever.

What I hope you'll get on board with is that there are two sides to this coin. Divorcing guild and class removes the intrinsic value of guilds that offering a class to experienced players provided. (Don't forget that newbies still come right through your door looking for a good time). However, divorcing guild from class also grants you so much more control over what you'd like to do with your guild, in the short- and long-term. Because you're not the sole arbiters of who gets a class, we're going to be a lot more open to your ideas . We still can't plot out an entire guild direction based on the ideas of one Guildmaster -- it's going to take time and consensus -- but it's a start.

Ezalor

I think Syssin guild got a huge advantage. You guys might have missed the changelog about it (762) but PHASESENSE is almost instant now, which means it's actually very viable to find other phased Syssin rather than the useless garbage it was before. This makes your new ability a huuuuuuuuuuuuge boon in that you can easily find phased players while you can't be found.

Alissandra

@Oleis‌ While I may not *like* it, I'll get on board with it because I don't see how throwing a temper tantrum and rage-quitting is going to benefit anyone other than people who want me to go away, and we can't have that. I can still think of what an ideal world would look like in my head, right?

Basically, I need to dissociate class from guild. Class is now simply a means to an end, the end being defined by the guild. It isn't as easy as it sounds, because it has been such an integral part of my character's identity that it isn't easily replaced. It's kind of like... forum therapy! We'll talk it out, in @Ishin‌ 's case maybe hug it out, feel a little better about it in the short term and deal with the underlying issues in the long run. If no other good comes from this, I/we can stop having people make alts to dispense the class and we don't have to play the Who Dun It? game and root out the scumbags. Hooray for that!

Elwyn

I like the changes made and maybe that is because the Shaman guild has never been about the class itself but its connection to Dendara. I will admit that I am basically -never- in Shaman class but that doesn't mean Elwyn is not a Shaman, she doesn't need to be using the skills to be Praadi, she just is. Even if people quit the guild and come back, they cannot undergo the ritual to become Praadi again because they were still such even if they were not part of the guild itself. I think this gives my guild a unique feel and it is how I roleplay the importance of the Shamans connection to Dendara. Once connect, you are -always- connected even if you don't have our skills. Anyway, my two cent.

Rashar

@Ishin Every real country has their version of the CIA. Most if them even learned shit from ours, or stole skills, or replicated. Fact.

@Alissandra If your guild can't find a rp and a purpose without the class. It's a failure of leadership. Moirean does awesome with Carni, even before the class was worth shit. Class has always been a medium through which to express some guild direction. Why does that change? If I'm an instructor and I teach someone, who goes on to open his own martial arts studio, does that make what he's doing invalid? More, does it make what I'm doing less so?

I get it, you guys want to be the sneakiest people ever and nobody else should be able to match it or counter it. Except the game is 400 years old. Secrets get out.

Mechanically you want to be more effective. But if you take syssin from lifers, not counting the sheer number of people who would pitch fits, that's a -huge- disadvantage. Now you're literally the only side that can kill someone behind enemy lines. (CITIES). The answer to that is not "yeah but you can go get monk and do other unique things". I don't play monk. I play Syssin. They aren't the same.

Sorry, I'm on my phone here.

Amberlea

I think the difference is not that they want only syssin to be syssin, but that the classes themselves have clear RP connotations to being tethered and are not.

The only reason they aren't tethered is because they are balanced around -not- being tethered, so suddenly tethering them would require complete rewrites of both the classes. We all know, from seeing other classes get rewritten, that this would take a great deal of time and may even end with the classes being something completely different from what everyone wanted to begin with.

I really like the idea of changing flavor text, though. Could change all non-guild/sanctioned syssin to more generic, non shadowy language and let the guilded/sanctioned ones have shadowy language.

Rashar

That's clearly not the issue when he mentioned several times that it's the fact that the more people that have it, the less value it has. The CIA comment, etc.

The arguing over it having shadow flavored skills is kind of meh. Tethering itself, ICLY, is kind of meh. Nobody cares about that stuff until they can use it in an argument. It was a mechanical separation, from my understanding, that we came up with, or continue to come up with flaky, broad stroke reasons for.

I get the frustrations, and maybe they should get something 'neat', but at this point the answer is so far from 'give shadow side only syssin'. That's lolsy, because you guys wouldn't even give it to shadow side. You want an entire coded class to be available only to yoyr tiny group, and that goes entirely against the point of multiclassing. .

Alissandra

@Rashar I don't think I was talking about a purpose, I was talking about an identity. Who ARE the Syssin? Now we're just some guys 'n gals, you know? Before we were those jerks over there that are all secretive. I can RP for days with my Guild on anything and everything, not an issue. Our purpose hasn't changed in the least with these changes. But our identity is no longer "We are Syssin, we have this awesome class. We are classy people." I can see part of your point in that our identity needs to now be much more focused around our purpose and RP. But past that we need to redefine who we are as a guild. What is it that motivates the pursuing our purpose? Why do we stick together? I think there is a very distinct yet hard to distinguish line. It is in no way a failure of the Guild leadership. At all. From the very beginning of the Syssin, we were the Syssin because Severn made us into Syssin. Slightly above the rest of the rellyw garbage. Now, there's really no point to that part of our identity and might as well be Artificed from the history books.

Rashar

Well, that's a real can't-do attitude.

Haven

Alissandra said:

But our identity is no longer "We are Syssin, we have this awesome class. We are classy people."

It's now, "We are -the- Syssin, we do it better than anyone else." The phase perk that renders you guys untrackable or whatever isn't insignificant. You guys can play it up even more so if you really wanted. Now that you guys (or any guild rather) doesn't have to be the sole source of class dispensing, you guys can drastically change your curriculum to better fit whatever RP direction you want to go.

And I do believe @Oleis said he and the admin team are willing to over guilds more over time if you just ask and it is feasible. So there is still a benefit to being apart of the guild. You guys can focus on building a cult of like-minded individuals without truly worrying about "Well damn, we have to do X cause we can't restrict class." Well now you can since it's more about being a part of the unit than being skill dispensers.

Be Fox Hound. Be the Deadly Viper Assassination Squad. Be whatever. I don't see what tethering would do? Just deny whoever you want now and make your own tethering. "We only except redheads here in the guild!"

Or am I missing something else here?

Ilyon

Alissandra said:

But our identity is no longer "We are Syssin, we have this awesome class. We are classy people."

Why not? You still have that class.

Areka

The Syssin used to be a collective of individuals who defended spinesreach through cloak and dagger and made contacts in other cities and created an information network as much as they had a wormhole network, and quite effectively at times manipulated the politics of unrelated places due to that work. There used to be issues with it feeling like an extension of Severn's Order, but there's still purpose there, and RP to sink your teeth into, especially now with the Shadowbound stuff, even if that's been momentarily set aside.

That is an equal amount of purpose to the Templar who defend the innocent. Same sort of line. There are a lot of things that can continue to be done in game to better define and consolidate who and what the guild of Syssin are. There is still a point to Severn being involved with the -guild- as an -organization of like-minded individuals to help with the work that falls within his values of artifice and manipulation-.

Alissandra

@Everyone Alright, I'll try a different analogy. Pretend the Syssin were Harvard. Everyone who is anyone wants to get their degree from Harvard. Or so I'm told. A degree from Harvard meant you were by default awesome. Well, now our copyright on the name has lapsed and a bunch of new universities have emerged all with the name of Harvard. So someone over here has a degree in baking from Harvard, and this person has a degree in breathing from Harvard, and that guy over there has a degree in plumbing from Harvard. We can no longer tout our "brand" if you will because everyone who wants a degree from Harvard gets one. True, only our degrees have the best instructors and have the best research, but when looking at a resume nobody cares because all they see is "B.A. in Surfing from Harvard" and then they get the job.

The exclusivity was part of the Syssin. I'll reference the "slightly above the other rellyw trash" bit. Before it was because we have the Syssin class, as @Ilyon pointed out. However, now we need to figure out how we identify ourselves or distinguish ourselves from everyone else since they all have access to the factor we used previously. I'm not talking on a mechanical sense here, this is strictly RP.

I liked @Kerryn 's bit about "fallen monks" because that makes sense. The Syssin certainly could continue along that similar line of identity if we wanted, but that exclusivity has been lost completely. I get how it is good for the game mechanically and financially and all that fun stuff. I'm just trying to communicate this notion to everyone so you can understand where I am coming from, which may not even be agreed upon by the rest of the guild!

Rashar

Lots of schools get a better or equivalent education than Harvard gives. People still like that name on a diploma for the prestige and reputation.

You're killing your own argument, Alissandra. You guys could be like 'we're the real deal, bro. Psh to your Eno Syssin education'.

Aishia

To some degree it takes the pressure off, like, people can get it if they want anyways you don't need to feel so bad for brushing off random people or refusing to teach them yourselves.

Moirean

Use the skills to inspire your guild identity not dictate it. Syssin are the coolest archetype in the game and you guys are a creative bunch. I'm sure you'll figure out how to mine the potential of the spy/assassin theme.

Faerah

Because all Guilds were treated similarly does not make the policy fair. In law, there is something known as a "disparate impact" that can reveal facially fair regulations to be anything but. A famous example of this was the poll tax. It was "fair" because everyone had to pay the tax and so they were "treated equally", but it disparately (negatively) impacted the poor (and racial minorities). In short, treating groups of people who are not similarly situated, similarly and without consideration of their differences, can still ultimately be unfair.

This is the precise case for the Sentaari and the Syssin. Both Guilds were not similarly situated with the other Guilds. So, to come in and say that everything was equal - and therefore fair - is honestly quite disingenuous (whether intentional, or not).

This disparate impact appears to be acceptable to the Administration. I disagree.

To me, it seems rather self-evident that if everyone can sneak about, eavesdrop and phase, then there is absolutely no point in a Guild that is based on espionage and assassination. No one will need to come to us, as they have, to assassinate people or dig up information on others because they can do it themselves. There is nothing unique about the Guild, and aside from a general sense of camaraderie, there is no point to being in it. This is especially the case because the Administration has stalled on the Shadowbound plot line which it tied to the Guild to in the first place, and, because despite all the generous offers of help that I routinely see on the forums, I have been unable to get basic things accomplished. (Two points here: (1) the Shadowbound plot has not been moved on with the Guild since Ishin got some random vision on 9/2/14 which was basically a bone thrown at us after another long gap in time, and (2) Razmael has given us some help with Guildhall stuff, but he is understandably busy and things fall through the cracks.)

In short, my confidence in the responsiveness of the Administration to Guild needs is incredibly low and not without legitimate reasons. Now, I understand that the Administration is busy and therefore, I have been patient. Nevertheless, the Administration should not be able to fall on how helpful and responsive they are as a possible "solution" to a negative impact they have thrown into the laps of the Guildmasters, while at the same time not actually being responsive because they are busy. It's either one way, or the other.

At the end of the day, when this (and other) decisions have been made, very little consideration has given to the non-Celani "volunteers." The volunteers that are outside of the Administration but work daily on producing content, player retention and picking up the slack from: (1) the lack of a legitimate conflict system and (2) a dearth in engaging world events. We are told to just make our Guild "cool" and that is a failure of the leadership in not picking up the slack.

I take personal exception to that.

The Guildmasters should not be made the scapegoats of this game's systemic problems. We should not be expected to single-handedly make the game engaging and fun, especially when the Administration continues to devalue their organizations. On the "ideas" thread, I have seen countless suggestions on how to make Guilds more engaging, or how to adjust the structure of Guilds so that they are able to be better customized. Nothing seems to pan out and so, Guildmasters are stuck with a rather archaic foundation that their organization that is systemically being devalued sits upon.

When the Shapeshifting subclass was created, the Atabahi and Bahkatu were disbanded because they no longer served a point. Everyone could be a Shapeshifter and no one seemed to cry foul that those two Guilds should have remained and just "made it work." Honestly, if they had been left standing I think more sympathy would have been given to them, than to the Syssin, because we are a Guild that has policies that were unpopular and people seem unable to separate their personal dislike of those policies - and the people who acted in line with them - from the actual situation at hand.

The reality of the situation, whether or not any of you want to believe this based on your own biases, is that most people I have talked to in the Syssin do not have an actual problem with the class being separated from the Guild. I know that as a player, I don't have a problem with it at all. Guarding class was obnoxious and I only did it because it made RP sense to do so. However, the Syssin guarding class also kept the amount of people with class under control and so it somewhat mitigated the lasting impact of making the Guild neutrally tethered (and thus able to be used by everyone) in the first place.

The problem is more the rather nonchalant attitude that the Administration is taking to the logical fallout from their decision. Our legitimate complaints keep being characterized as the players being selfish, when all we are trying to do is show why we need help based on the situation we were dealt, not just with this decision - but as the result of a series of decisions. There is a context here that should not be ignored. That help we are asking for does not have to be in tethering the class or taking it away from people, those are unimaginative solutions to the problem and not what Ishin was suggesting (and certainly not what I am suggesting either).

Regardless, I had told Ishin not to bring this to the forums because I felt it would do no good. I still feel like it will do no good, but at least I got that off my chest. Now back to trying to entertain a subset of the -Administration's- player base for free, with fairly limited assistance and with the majority of the game painting me and my friends as selfish jerks so they can just brush us aside.

P.S. Moirean is an incredible individual who amazes me daily, but no one should have to put in as much work as she does to keep their organization going. It's a sign of how dead the game is that she has to do metaphoric backflips to keep things even remotely engaging in Spinesreach and the Carnifex. On top of which, no one sings her praises when she gets frustrated and snaps under the pressure/workload she shoves on herself. Instead, I see her being completely disparaged time and time again. No one should have to do that to themselves to be considered a "good leader" in a game. I appreciate that -she- does, but if -that- is going to be the expectation - it is an unsustainable and unrealistic one for the overwhelming majority of people.

Ishin

I'm actually working a line on that kinda stuff recently @Moirean. And we already look on outsiders with disdain.

Alissandra

@Moirean‌ comes through in her usual awesomeness and says what I can't in fewer words.

We had been letting our skills dictate or guild identity. We are being forced to change that. It is not easily done voluntarily let alone by force. It isn't necessarily a bad thing, just really hard. Case closed. I am going to brainstorm ideas now.