Immersion

Konnorn

Alexina said:

My point here is that I'd love to see people rewarded for good, consistent roleplay. I am not talking about leadership positions or Order titles, but real, tangible things that will encourage people to actually think about their role in the setting of the game, and hopefully even give them reasons to portray that role in a slightly more believable manner.

The problem with this is what this whole thread has been about. We all have different views on what good, consistent roleplay is and I don't Think that having it dictated for us is going to help in any way. Some people like the pizza and shaken iced milk, some want the ye olde english and some might want the steampunk style. Having a set of rules that give or take points for what a few people might think is the correct way to do it would never work in the long run. If everyone was on the same page though, it would be an awesome idea.

Trigru

Alexina said:

I'd love to hear some of the administration's opinions or viewpoints on all of this, or any of the Celani/Divine volunteers, if you're willing to share.

When I hear people using slang, shorthand, or other so-called "real-worldisms", my first sincere impression is that we've somehow failed to make the game immersive and engaging for that person.

No one in Aetolia is required to roleplay, and I would never dare insist that there's a right and wrong way to do it. These are discussions I'll leave to you guys. All the same, I want the game to lead by example. I want players to feel compelled by the setting. That's really all I have to say about it.

Ambivalence

Am I correct that while roleplay is optional, IC behavior is still mandatory? Or was that never the case with Aetolia?

Alexina

HELP OOC:

Q: Where is it acceptable to say OOC things?

A: Virtually nowhere in Aetolia. Certainly you are expected to avoid OOC behavior in all public channels and places where someone you do not specifically know wants to hear your OOC comments could overhear you. This includes SAY, YELL, SHOUT, GNT, MARKET, and so on. If you and a buddy play together and want to talk about your jobs or weekend plans, feel free - just please keep it to tells. Owners of private clans are also permitted to set their own rules with regard to acceptable OOC speech on their private clan channel. However, if you are the owner of such an OOC clan, don't expect any immortal to support it in any way.

EDIT:
Wow. That Q&A feels like it was written over a decade ago. I can't remember the last time I saw admin/Divine being referred to as immortal.

Jensen

It's been a while since I've seen someone be blatantly ooc in an ic medium other than a mistell. Usually it's a grey area like posting vnums, irl dates, or technical game info. Ooc dialogue, at least in orgs I belong to, isnt common since we have clans for that banter. Is there something specific youre referring to?

Obyn

Vnums can be easily explained away. Player characters are adventurers, and are all members of the fellowship of explorers. The explanation that has been used in the past is that members of said fellowship have access to standard-issue maps. Your vnums would simply be coordinates.

Jensen

I like that explanation, thank you

Ambivalence

Not going to point fingers at players or organizations, as that isn't liable to change anything or do anyone an ounce of good. If anything, I reckon it'll just subject us all to a world of super-relativistic hair-splitting that I really don't care to get caught up in.

I've already conceded that insofar as it's in accordance with Da Rules, the next man's personal taste is as legitimate as my own. But, I'm not satisfied to leave it at that.

My way of looking at RP and theme is about akin to my take on sports. Most people would say that although each has its predetermined set of rules, it's fine to innovate and make modifications to the end that they contribute to your enjoyment. I'm not convinced it's quite that clean-cut. At some point after you hit that homerun and swim past the 50 meter line, intercepting the discus with your sword and landing me in a suplex that I start to wonder, "What the unicorns is this?," and- I apologize, but- it just isn't all that fun or interesting to me. Where's the essence of the traditional sport; it doesn't engender the suspense of baseball, the rush of soccer and hockey, the grace of ice-skating or the technicality and skill of classic wrestling and fencing.

Refinement is a thing. It isn't linear, and it isn't an absolute, but nor is it completely arbitrary and without reasonable and well-established precedents. The thing that makes the RPIs I have played so engaging, is not the literary skill of their players and administration by any means, but the common vision they share, and how that shapes the environment.

Humbles thoughts. Yo.

Obyn

@Ambivalence‌ I really do agree with some of your points. I feel like I look at some of what goes on and just shake my head and wonder 'why'. However, the admin here walk a fine line when it comes to enforcing certain things. Do we crack down on player-crafted items? Do we remove things that have been around for ages simply because we decided they no longer fit? Aetolia is, unfortunately, first and foremost a business. And we have to keep that in mind when we make certain decisions. There's currently a push to clean up some of the world, however, and bring things in line with certain standards we are trying to set, though I don't know that that would do much to help the situation you're feeling.

Jensen

It's hard to define what tradition would be here and it boils back down to creative license. You can't skip to second base because it would be more fun, there's a group that makes up the rules and a person there to enforce those rules. This game does have minimum standards of play such as remaining in character, not wanton killing players without cause, and the enforcement of sides. Dialogue poses a problem because as seen, we don't agree on what fits and what doesn't. It's hard to dictate what fits here because aetolia is its own world that has had multiple admin visions, over a decade of time for change, and hundreds of players shaping it.

Oleis

Safe to say admin vision has very little to do with the way players speak. We'll step in with crafting sometimes, sure, and any number of other permanent things, but I think the last thing we should (or want to) do is get involved with the details of player roleplay. If we had made an announce that said "quit saying 'yo'", this thread probably would have been three times as long as five times as heated.

If you don't like the way someone speaks around you, tell them. If they don't respect your wishes? Don't roleplay with them any more than you have to. That's about as deep as that part of the discussion needs to get.

Phoenecia

I've played MUSHes before that were very big on immersion and RP, especially games that took place in established universes. But at the same time, they took certain liberties to make things much more fun, and allowed players to shape the world into something of their own making. Of course, there were standards to what you could and couldn't do.

I kind of think that's how things are done here. Players and admin subscribe to the Rule of Fun, within certain constraints. Aetolia has an overarching dark fantasy theme with other little elements that have been thrown in over time, and for the most part, everything seems to have its place, and everything seems to fit. Aetolia is not a static game world. It's always changing to adjust the player culture and player needs, while at the same time remaining true to itself. There has to be a balance.

Also, there's always going to be the case of the grass always being greener. Even in RPI's, you're going to find people who will be pushing the boundaries of what's acceptable, or finding loopholes, or playing in ways that might grate on your nerves, but other people don't seem to mind. That's kind of the case here too. Everybody has little pet peeves, whether it be in certain crafting items like pizza or thongs, or people regularly saying 'yo' in-character, or certain RP elements. But you know what? That's not the entire game; it's only one part. And those things are very easy to overlook or ignore. Don't like those things? Avoid them. You can find plenty of ways to find enjoyment in the game. And if those little things are enough to break your immersion to the point where it ruins everything for you? Well, I'm sorry, but you're missing the bigger picture, and you're missing out on some really amazing stuff.

Being given a lot of creative freedom in Aetolia is not a bad thing. We have guidelines in place on what can be created BECAUSE people in the game do sincerely care about theme and immersion, but at the same time, immersion is subjective, so compromises have to be made. You might not like it, but so long as people do things within the boundaries of what's acceptable, there's really no right or wrong, and if those tiny little things bother you so much that it ruins the whole experience...well, like I mentioned, you're really missing out on all the good stuff people in the game have to offer.

Ishin

Obyn said:

Vnums can be easily explained away. Player characters are adventurers, and are all members of the fellowship of explorers. The explanation that has been used in the past is that members of said fellowship have access to standard-issue maps. Your vnums would simply be coordinates.

That's the explanation I use. 'map coordinates'. Made the most sense to me.

Aishia

I find for me it's more immersion breaking to bother trying to explain or say it more ICly, than it is just to blurt out the helpful information and move on.

Meyvitch

That post after my last one @Alexina. Hit the nail on the head as the answer I was kinda looking for.

Alexina

I feel a bit like the last page has focused a bit too much about specific issues, and why said specific issues are or are not a problem, rather than contributing very much to the topic about immersion. Instead of criticising, I was thinking I could probably give a few examples of things that I miss from other roleplaying-centric games that I enjoy playing:

• Players have no real power. I feel a bit conflicted about this particular opinion, and I think it might rub a few people the wrong way, but hear me out for a moment. Maybe I should say that most players have very little say in the day-to-day life of Aetolia. In other muds, if I joined a clan/cabal/order, my opinion suddenly mattered. In one game, new applicants went through a voting process, so there was incentive to seek out current members and start roleplaying with them, try to earn their approval and such. In another game I played, the players of this one faction gathered once a month to discuss laws, treaties, territorial claims, and so on and so forth. In one game, you had to earn quest points to progress and gian new powers, and you initially gained these points by attending classes held by other players. Later, after having advanced a bit, you would gain points by holding classes for new characters. I have a really hard time getting story arcs going on my own, but I enjoy participating and debating in communal discussions. Aetolia has built up a system focused mainly on leadership roles, and it is a pretty good system all things considered, but I feel like I can not really just log on and get engaged in the doings of my particular clan/covenant/whatever. There is no system of duties/objectives/purpose in place for organizations (with the sole exception of Ylem gathering), instead focusing on ideals/tenets/dogmas.
  
• Aetolia feels too static. Event posts are few and far between. There are times when there're bursts of activity, the most recent example being the public posts about Moghedu from various NPC regions. If things are happpening in the world (even if just small things), there are ways for me to get involved. I can form an opinion about these things, and I can discuss it with other people, even if I may not directly be able to influence the outcome of the specific situation. I am not talking about grand, sweeping changes on a weekly or even monthly basis, but rather that there seems to be this atmosphere of waiting around in Aetolia. In one game I was playing, there would be a few global messages from immortals on a regular basis, often about them seeking for something specific, or wanting a task completed, or how rumors were spreading about evil demonic influences, or how a comet were seen falling into a specific location. People would rush to these locations, or gather to discuss the rumors, or start investigating things on their own. There are very seldom micro events in Aetolia like that, events that last for a few hours, or over the span of a week, but still make the world feel all bustling and alive (the last one that springs to mind for me was the shadow essence gathering with Iosyne's order, but that event was wholly unappreciated by the majority of the playerbase).
  
• There are no incentives in place for grouping up. Most of the time, I do things on my own because it benefits my character more. Hunting. Questing. Gathering supplies. Pretty much every other game I've played has mechanisms in place that makes you earn more experience/gold/equipment by doing things as a team rather than alone. At first glance, this may not seem very crucial to immersion at all, but it is actually really important. By walking around and doing things together, you make contacts that you wouldn't otherwise, and this has a tendency of leading to good, interesting, and fun roleplay in the long run. If the benefits of travelling in groups (say 3-4 people) were that much higher than of you going through the world alone, then many organizations would suddenly have a much stronger sense of community and identity.
  

Now. I know that this thread was created primarily to discuss immersion, but I'm sort of going to hijack it a bit, and talk about the things I want. I am very selfish like that. I want measurable, quantifiable paths of progression with tangible benefits, and for someone currently at level 170, bashing does not count (unless you add specific rewards past level 100, including but not limited to new races, unique items/powers, more customizable content, etcetera). Seeing a bar fill up is good way to trick me into continue playing, particularly if the rewards are not just more haven points that do absolutely nothing. What would be even better, would be rewards for roleplaying with other people.

Imagine if at guild rank five, you got access to a level 3 artifact weapon set by the guild (extra grisly level 3 halberd for carnifex, level 3 magic potence for mages, and so on). At guild rank eight, you got access to specific consumables that could be purchased (15,000 gold for +15% experience bonus for three hours, 3,000 gold for a starburst effect that keeps defenses active upon death, 10.000 gold for a weapon dye that makes your wielded weapon line and your weapon tag in attacks show up in that specific colour, etcetera). At rank twelve, an bottomless artifact vial. See where I'm going with this? If there are amazing rewards associated with specific guild ranks that are given automatically, then people will want to get involved in the guild because this benefits them directly. Greed is a great motivator. Obviously, these items would disappear if you left the guild, and artifacts would not really be considered artifacts as much as guild armaments (as in, no tradein value).

Imagine if the esteem system was reworked a bit. Once per Howling, you could express esteem for a person due to their in-character interaction with you. Each time someone expressed esteem for you, you would get one esteem point. Esteem points would unlock tiered rewards: at one point, gain an expressive style scroll (this is a wow factor for new players, can not be used by other people); at ten points, gain access to description ambience lines (choose of a list of lines appended to the end of your description like the red streaks of blood given to Iosyne's order); at fifty points, gain a custom minipet token; at hundred points, gain an honours line; at three hundred points, gain a race restring token (changes the human in 'She is a typical Human' to a sentient race of choice that dwells in Aetolia but is not available as race selections (purely a cosmetic change, no new racial skills/etc)), and so on, and so forth.

These are just rough examples and the rewards are just examples of things that get me chasing after them and not necessarily something that would fit into the game. But. But! These are just the sort of things that provide incentives for people to interact more with each other. Anything like this would be superb.

Moirean

There were rp points before when esteem originally existed, and it was abused and became viewed as griefy and unfun, which was why the system was turned off initially. I think the player-base has changed and matured, however, so a re-look into esteem might be helpful. At the least, an IG way to track esteem, and look at past things people have said, but something tangible to reward good RP would also be nice.

I think part of your lack of engagement might be due to your orgs of choice. Things you cite, like group meetings and update posts, happen in Spinesreach very often. It can be a bit more tiring for me, but we've made a big push during my tenure as CL to make the city much more of a republic, with discrete and tangible places for non-leaders to participate, share their voice, and be rewarded.

I absolutely agree with the grouping. There's no incentive for me to take others bashing. I do, because it makes them happy, but I'm gimping my own progress and gold and basically just carrying them.

I would love to see more tangible guild stuff, be those perks people can work for, rank powers we can invest, guild artifacts, etc. I've posted a lot about these in the past, and I suspect admin have a bucket full of ideas from all of us, but it's hard to simply toss things out there. They have a full plate of things they want to do, and we all want them to introduce stuff that's solid, balanced and coded well, rather than slapped together. The recent Celani call should help, hopefully.

Gwenith

I thought, maybe this is the best place to put this but... well the lack of consequences is one of the major immersion breakers for me.

There's the players who do the continuous back and forth between service to (light/life/Rhythm/Cycle/whatever you want to call it) and turning undead. Rejecting your various city/guild vows and then turning undead, then pleading to turn back should be met with more than just a pinch on the nose, ruffle of the hair and the loving "Oh you scallywag! Sure you can come back" that it is currently met with right now.

You might say "It's up to the players to do that" but well, I tried (granted it was once but it left a really bad taste in my mouth) and it was turned over by a god. This wasn't a first time offence for the person, or a second time.. and when they were one of the enemy they were actively fighting against us and doing damage to our cause.

There is a rather lazy attitude growing and infecting the playerbase when they just do what they want because they can get away with it (Wow that sounds rather bad if taken out of context) with just a slap on their wrist. I know there is the section of the game that plays this purely for PK who get a rather lot of admin love becaus ethey function mostly on code, then there are those who treat the game as an outlet to enact their OOCly needs like social interaction with other people and furry, furry sex... Then there is those who would like to actually play as characters - the RP crowd who consequences and limitations are actually part of the fun, where the choices you make actually matter.

I would like my choices to matter, and for other peoples choice to matter as well.

Teani

I, too, would like my choices to matter, as well as have actions taken by characters have consequences. I would prefer if it was more difficult to hop from one side to another or if the people who did so was prepared to face some kind of community service punishment to show they are sincere and have understood that people are watching them.

It is the same thing with characters disrespecting the Divine, then shrugging their shoulders as they get zapped, saying "Oh, it's just a trip through the Halls and then I'm good to shout insults again." I'm not saying that everyone should be polite to all Divine at all times. There are times when animosity is called for, when things culminate into a battle of wills (or in some cases wit, poor or brilliant is up for debate), but if a Divine kills you with a simple flick of a finger or a mere thought tossed in your direction, perhaps your character should give pause and think for a bit? Yes, it's just a trip through the Halls, but the idea is that one of these days, you won't be allowed to pass anymore. Is it really worth continuing to toss insults then (only to have the final word) just because the Divine seem toothless because of mechanics?

It's similar to people freaking out because you RP reactions to stuff related to mechanics, like someone falling on their butt because they are too drunk after sweeping alcohol. Why shouldn't I react to that? If you don't want that reaction, don't have your character drink that much or learn to purge/handle alcohol better before trying to play badass and able to sweep six bottles of rum without any other effect than the fun slurring speech that people seem fine with RPing about. At least that's my opinion.

However, it boils down to this being a game where people are supposed to be able to have fun. Blocking someone from switching sides just because they have been on the other side for some time might potentially ruin their fun because they have lost interest and needs to spice things up a little. Keeping them from switching might make them choose to drop the game instead and since IRE needs to make a profit and the game in general needs more players to keep going to be fun, losing even one player is not a good option.

Gods can't keep zapping players over and over because then they will be called out for griefing (it's happened before). And yes, if someone doesn't like my RP responses to alcohol reactions, they don't need to RP (drunk) around me. There's always a choice. So if you don't like how people bounce from side to side, distance yourself from that issue instead of getting involved in it. Perhaps they are not as involved in your kind of immersion as you are. It is still a game they like to play.

Obyn

I'm going to throw in a bit here, despite the fact that I probably shouldn't, but Teani brings up something that has bothered me for a long, long time. It's not so much mechanics that are holding back gods from unleashing a world of hurt the likes of which has never been seen before on mortals that offend them in some manner. It's the fact that we, as volunteer admin, have to try and look out for the well-being of the game and, as a result of that, have a set of rules that we typically will adhere to pretty stringently.

Sure, some of the gods may take extraordinary action at times and that inevitably gets complained about in some manner. But as a general rule the people behind the god roles are expected to pull punches to a rather large degree. And people with knowledge of that seem to use that knowledge to their advantage.

Veseos

I'm going to toss my two cents in here and say that Aetolia is not the real world. It doesn't have our real world's history, lack of magic, lack of literal monsters, and various other things. I don't feel it should be treated as such. Maybe throwing in "It's like the dark ages!" maybe could be a good guideline, but not a rule. I'm going to doubt that, even if you study the subject for a living, I don't think a single one of us has enough experience living in those times to portray a character like that with utmost accuracy.

And I don't know about you guys, but if someone walked up to me and started a conversation with, "Verily, thout art", I might just have to kill them.

Teani

@Obyn‌: Even if it's not mechanics holding back the Divine, but rules that are set up for proper behavior, the outward face of an IRE game etc. it doesn't mean people should take advantage of this and show blatant disrespect because they know there won't be consequences. After all, the Divine are volunteers and don't get paid to take shit. They take shit to help better the game and deserve at least a token of respect on public venues, like in news posts and in shouts where others are subjected to it.

Obyn

@Teani I certainly agree with everything you're saying. That said, when players are egging on other players re. behavior towards the divine in character or even bad-mouthing the volunteers out of character in webs, ooc clans, and other places, well it just adds up to a sense that the players don't really appreciate the fact that the admin are largely volunteers who are here to help the game along. It may be out of line of me to say but...burnout from work is not the only reason why volunteers step down. Not by a long shot.

Gwenith

@Admin : In that case feel free to throw any curveballs you want at me without fear of complaining or cussing. Stretch out your storytelling legs and be the All Mighty and All Powerful with someone that will roll with the punches.