Immersion

Trigru

This discussion was created from comments split from: Here, Have Some Credits.

This was spawned from the original discussion, and addresses this portion of @Ambivalence‌'s post:

Ambivalence said:

I don't want to draw this out.

Shamefully, I have a bad habit of counting chickens, and was so caught up in my expectations based on past experiences, that I didn't take the time to assess just how drastically the times, as well as my expectations, have changed. After one too many drops of the word "Cool" in guildchat, hours of thinly veiled OOC conversation and incomplete sentences passing for roleplay, and a player with a fedora "tipped rakishly over one eye," I've learned the hard way that Aetolia just isn't going to be the particularly breed of immersive experience I've been holding out for.

Solaria

Don't care about the credits. I really hope you end up finding a game that has the experience you're looking for. Sorry that it just wasn't with us.

Emelle

I'm sorry, too, and I sympathize. I do think it's possible to find that experience in this game, but I believe it's more work than is ideal, and I can't imagine trying to do that work as a relatively fresh player.

I hope you find a happy RP niche.

Moirean

What's wrong with a fedora? Frankly, if someone's ATTIRE message is pissing you off, it sounds like you're looking for flaws.

Areka

There are many different preferences and expectations when it comes to roleplay and immersion. Aetolia has an inconsistent setting which can be frustrating - medieval gothic with notes of steampunk, fedoras, ball pits, tuxedos, and pizza can be a bit jarring.

Don't have to be looking for flaws to have some things be disgruntling, and at times there's only so much you can avoid the things that you don't find enjoyment or immersion in.

I don't think it warrants a jab or an attack though, with someone choosing to check out and find something that better aligns with their preferences.

Arbre

I got sorta excited by the title that I'd be able to pay @Aryanne back more swiftly, lol.

Anyways, Aetolia is listed as gothic fantasy, but it kinda has developed into its own genre, and if you're looking for straight up fantasy, it may not fit in for you. That's unfortunate, I've tried to look for you in game to RP with some. Sorry it didn't work out.

Trager

I can understand the lack of immersion from certain people. I want to crawl through my computer screen when someone really dark and evil walks in and uses to YO emote.

Rashar

Thinly veiled OOC chatter is why I don't play my Indorani often, or at least why I turn off GT when I'm on. That being said, some things irk me, sure, but immersion is out there. You almost have to create it yourself. Maybe I'm silly, but if someone strolls up wearing a pinstripe suit and a top hat, I either pretend they aren't or I don't bother with them. That sort is rare though, and frankly if you avoid SR you'll avoid most of them.

Also, cut yourself out of clans. Most are OOC, and darkie side in particular has what seems like a ton of them. Which is cool, that half of the game is generally funner and more friendly to people. But if you want total immersion, you gotta remove that stuff. Like others have said, Aetolia dort of has it'd own environment. If you like the grunge dark Gothic theme you're gonna have to ignore some things. I suspect the same goes for any specific angle you're looking for.

Moirean

I still don't see what's wrong with the fedora. The attire message isn't badly written and fedoras existed in the 1800s, which is where we've always been told is the cut-off for too-modern stuff.

I mean, I dunno. I don't see anything wrong with using "cool" in guild chat (the word is pretty much mainstream and not even really slang anymore) or making a tongue-in-cheek meta reference here and that. I find that more engaging and fun than "Darkest tidings, thou evil brethren" and heavily critical RP. I may be a bit bitter here, I've tried RPIs and people were so focused on staying in role and being "correct" in their RP that it was impossible to get help and figure out basic stuff - I tend not to police new people or ban certain words or anything like that, but to encourage them to slowly create a role over time. It's not super immersive all the time but I think it's more welcoming and encouraging. I remember when I first started playing Aetolia, I explored Xoral and just cracked up over the men yelling at me for peeking at them sunbathing. I pasted one of the says into CT to share, because I was so derpily excited by it... Within seconds I got like 3 messages about how people had "de-esteemed" me for bad RP, because I pasted the "man says" part. It felt so petty and discouraging and I nearly quit right then.

Aetolia has more RP than other IREs, but it's not an RPI. OOC communication via clans and webs, focus on mechanics and PK, bashing, these all play a part as well. We also have new players or players who haven't ever RPd at all and are learning. I don't think you're going to find a RPI-level immersion in any IRE game, because storylines are only half the gameplay, versus RPIs where they are the main focus. Maybe try hitting @Toz up - I know he's working on building a new RPI that sounds promising.

Areka

And you're allowed to have that stance. Others of us are also valid and allowed to not find enjoyment in the same style of playing that you do, the same placement of constraints or standards, and so on.

If you want to have a discussion of that, there is certainly room for that in another thread, but this isn't it, and neither is it necessary to knock down Ambiv's stance or preferences.

Edit: Since we've been moved to a thread - I find fedoras jarring. I can also be a bit of a purist. Fedoras may have been a thing in the 1800s, except in Aetolia that's not the context they're being worn in. They're being worn with pinstriped suits ala Frank Sinatra Vegas, which is NOT within the same time frame or -cultural/societal- frame.

While it may seem silly, the game loses some of its shine for me with things like that. Some of the disjointed aspects of the game's culture, technology, styling, etc, further adds to this - it begins to feel like Lusternia (which has some really great moments, then in others feels like a cut and spliced cartoon reel from across a decade's worth of different shows and companies - which while could be OK if that is the context and intent of the game itself, is NOT what at least Aetolia advertises and claims to be).

I wish we had more consistency and more depth. I want to play in a world that feels believable within its boundaries and is a living breathing thing.

Sireris

Only been at the game a day but I like how varied the setting is. The openness takes away a lot of the stress of writing a character and trying to fit them into the game world. In more strict settings a players first few interactions might be immersion breaking on account of the player not knowing how to conduct themselves properly, especially if they aren't familiar with the interface already (god knows I'm still working out this game's). Like I said only a day in but I've had a share in the roleplay already and at no point did it feel like I as a player came was the one talking to my guildmates. So it's very friendly to new players.

On top of that the varied setting also means varied characters. Maybe I'm just overestimating based on my first impression but it seems like it very possible to have a playerbase of 100,000 or something and still have everyone with a decidedly unique personality within a few lines of dialogue if it would even take that much. I've already seen evidence of attire and speech styles from real world centuries' worth of eras and players do seem to try and capitalize on that. That's just from browsing shops while listening to CT. It's quite refreshing to jump into a game that advertises "HEY! WE HAVE PLAYABLE VAMPIRES!" and find that the playerbase isn't just a bunch of Draculas and Van Helsings.

Two cents from a newbie is all.

Riluo

Roleplay evolves in all game universe's as is the case here in Aetolia. In fact as someone who has been playing since 2002 I can say with the upmost confidence that throughout this time much has changed and that is to be expected given that characters grow and develop within the confines of said universe. For example we were invaded by flying ships fuelled by a culture that used ylem. This alone jump starting another leap in our technology. Before that Spinesreach resurfaced after being buried and hidden from peoples memory both in the literal sense and the metaphysical sense, launching a new age of rediscovery involving steam technology, gears and cogs. Which whilst it was not fully understood it has become better integrated into our way of life and advanced our understanding.

Indeed at 343 years old Riluo has went from rubbing sticks together to wielding immense artifacts and gauntlets that harness raw power from the fabric of reality. So putting that into perspective how could we think that a world would stay stagnant in its originally setting (18th century). It would be downright ludicrous given that it has been well over 350 years. Therefore with this in mind it would be safe to say we are now more in the age of gas lamps and early steam technology (19th century).

Of course people will disagree with this and I can respect that, but what can not be argued is the world has changed and that is a sign of a healthy community that has evolved with the game, and visa versa.

--sorry done on the sly via a phone so excuse the errors--

Teani

I've never liked the fedora either, mostly because of how it is used, or the kimono actually, since that brings my mind to RL Asian attire no matter how ancient it is. I really prefer when clothes are described with neutral or Aetolian reference words. So what if you don't know exactly what a Delosian braid looks like. Either read a more detailed description if there is one or use your imagination. Want a hat suitable for your other clothes that looks like a fedora? Ask for a brimmed hat with a folded top or something. Yes, it can be a hassle reprasing something and using other words, especially when there is that one lovely word out there describing what you need perfectly, but you know... Not all things should be super easy.

I think that's a trend I dislike the most within Aetolia, how everything always gets simplified. I loved the struggle to work things out, how you needed to work really hard to gain levels, how you needed to ask questions and have lessons to learn about things more rather than being pointed towards a help file. There's less of that now, because... I don't know, maybe new players really do expect being able to come in an "win" the game from the start now.

As for words and phrases, some things will be jarring to hear in an IC setting, but if it is a new player involved, you can just drop it for a bit and gently guide and perhaps suggest alternatives without being offensive. I don't hesitate sending an OOC tell to a newbie with suggestions. If it's an old player ruining immersion on an IC channel, they should be able to handle a tell like that without ragequitting. If they can't, they need to grow up.

If you RP with someone or encountere someone somewhere in the game, who doesn't share your views when it comes to immersion, you can try to ignore those bits where you disagree to keep up with the RP or choose not to interact with that person unless it's necessary.

We also know that not all people playing this game get involved in RP. It might be important to make that known, so the game doesn't lose players over lack of immersion. There have been quite a few suggestions made here on the forums lately to help make it easier to find said immersion and experience. An Active RPer list, a list for game-specific word references just to name two.

I'm really sorry to see @Ambivalence‌ go. I hope you'll give the game another chance. It really does deserve it. We all love it in our own way for different reasons.

My two cents.

Ambivalence

For the record, "Tipped rakishly over one eye" is a hipster culture reference, practically a meme.

Technically, I reckon it's as appropriate as whatever or whoever the authority is says it is. However, I find that a distinct difference of present RL culture from IC culture is necessary for immersion (unless the two are deliberately one in the same); without that distinction, the world is about as enthralling as a Yahoo chatroom with a background description .

I play RP-oriented games for the narrative and theme, rather than to socialize, as I feel that the latter can be done in a variety of other outlets that facilitate it and the mechanical aspects of the game better than an MUD ever could. That's an opinion.

Unfortunately, I don't have the gross time for an RPI, and those games tend lack population even at peak times.

Konnorn

I very rarely look at peoples descriptions or what they wear. Perhaps that's why I don't worry so much about things breaking immersion. If people are blatantly ooc over ic channels, of course that's no fun, but personally, I don't mind ooc tells correcting misspellings or things like that. I can still feel immersed. And I can see beyond the fedoras. Heck, Konn loves his White suit, even though he traded it in for something more Syssin suitable now.

And this is not to bash down on any opinions or anything, just my personal opinion that I wish to reflect... If you want dark fantasy narrative and theme, but don't want to socialize, I am sure there are perfectly good books to read.

Ambivalence

My words weren't to the effect that I don't want to socialize, but that socializing in and of itself is not the goal; RP is a legitimate, priority end in its own right, rather than something that just exists to spice up the rest of the experience.

What's more, books are rarely interactive, and don't lend themselves to the level of creative license, collaboration, and engagement you can find in the right MUD. So, that point seems moot.

Seurimas

Ambivalence said:

For the record, "Tipped rakishly over one eye" is a hipster culture reference, practically a meme.

For all the good, upstanding roleplayers, seeing stuff like that in someone's description would be a tad disheartening for me as well.

Moirean

Maybe I'm too old (or living in Portland made me immune to noticing it) or am a history nerd because I had no idea there were memes surrounding fedoras. I hear fedora and I think Sarah Bernhardt and 1800s women's rights activism.

Teani

When I hear fedora, I think mobster style. When it's also combined with a pinstriped suit and "tipped rakishly over one eye" it just makes that even worse. That's so far away from immersion and the 1800 women's rights activism it can be.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/692/308/48f.png

Trigru

Personally I see this:

Faerah

Teani said:

When I hear fedora, I think mobster style. When it's also combined with a pinstriped suit and "tipped rakishly over one eye" it just makes that even worse. That's so far away from immersion and the 1800 women's rights activism it can be.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/692/308/48f.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vnrNV-26k5E/Tmx8st1fh3I/AAAAAAAArRo/a2MUoNT4qP0/s640/Picture+6.png

Emelle

While I agree with much of what's been said about the evolution of the game and the compromise between RP culture and the other areas of the game that are equally important (to some folks, anyway), I think @Teani has it right -- sometimes you just have to ignore some areas of the game when they don't fit with your view of things. It isn't the most ideal, but to be honest, it's been a necessity in most of the MU* games I've ever played, because every person comes to the game with different desires and expectations.

I certainly go through my own share of frustration at Aetolia's inability to be everything I want out of a collaborative writing experience, but even then, I still manage to have really immersive and satisfying moments that keep me around. I haven't managed to replicate that in any other MU*, and believe me, I've tried.

Toz

I've always kind of figured the most damaging thing to immersion is worrying about immersion. I'm pretty sure ALL of our characters would be horribly out of place in any time period cares to name - which is fine, since unless I've missed some Signs-level plot-twist (HYPHENS), we're not actually living in a time period that Earth has ever experienced. Or even on Earth itself. As such, pretty sure just about anything gets a pass. You can't talk about football because they don't have football in that world - but a fedora, or pancakes, or even thongs? Yeah, whatever. Nothing out of place.

Serrice

Why CAN'T they have football? Where do you draw the line?

Moirean

I think I've only ever been really super immersed in the game a tiny handful of times - when I first started. The first war Edhain and I did against Bloodloch. The Shadowplague. For the most part, I usually feel pretty detached about gameplay. It might be because I PK and bash and do CL stuff - these are all pretty OOC ways to look at the game, and there's often a coding intermediary between you and the game. When so much time is spent looking at mechanics and coding and writing up help files and teaching newbies and all that, it feels hard to me, personally, to not just view RP as another mechanic (and hence get frustrated that people get so nitpicky about stuff).

Toz

I have no problem even with playing football IG. Just so long as it happens IG and isn't drawn from IRL with no RP.

Areka

My issue with some of this stuff is it lowers the bar. The shits and giggles 'but I just want my joke and my fun', while good for a moment, then become part of the game world when exceptions are made or rules changed to allow, and THAT becomes the new standard. A lot of it feels shoe-horned IC for a moment's entertainment which then leaves an allowance and mark which opens the door for even more, which then stops things from being just in your little corner and impact a wider reach of peoples' immersion.

Emelle

[insert ice chair here]

Ishin

It's a sand chair, Em. Sand chair.

Edit:

Well, to be more on point and not just an asshole, my immersion mostly ended when I started leading orgs and taking leadership positions. Like @moirean said, there's just a meta level to that and I don't really think that it's avoidable.

And god forbid I should have to join a web to lead people in pvp. Lol.

Moirean

I personally never found Meltas's ice chair or Tsvanni's sand chair (there were both) that big of an issue, but I'm probably very low on the "what's ok" spectrum. For me, having fun comes above super accuracy - my favorite D&D memory was having our druid turn into a fish so we could bounce light off her scales to unlock a door Indiana-Jones-Style. I can understand, however, that people would find the more silly and borderline stuff jarring and get frustrated by it - I get a bit twitchy when I see excessive typos or bad grammar in RP.

I'm not really sure where the line should be drawn. It's important to remember that Aetolia wasn't created as "the RP IRE" - that wasn't the intention, but rather a sub-culture that's developed among a large (but not complete) number of the players. People who don't RP or who only RP every now and then or do rather light RP aren't breaking the rules or going against the original spirit of the game, and a good number of them started playing before the RP scene became so developed here.

Aarbrok

Oh my god...I could have shapeshifted into a fish..
I would end up a Magikarp though, and just splash. It would never be effective.

REAL MOMENT: (Brought to you by Aarbrok)

In the end of things, little flavor things done by a character may be slightly bothersome, but what we need to realize is the impact things like a sand/ice chair, some gears tossed into things, and various other little quirks that players may toss in that -do not- ultimately harm the overall play environment are hardly a detriment. When it boils down to the concentrated mass that is "Aetolia" this is a game we come to to 'escape reality' for various reasons and is a happy funtime place we need to remind ourselves we are coming to to play our characters and not others.

I will admit things like the sand chair have irritated me at some juncture when I want to take the time out of my life to stress over it and put real life science and plausibility into how something like that would work. At the end though, who does that harm, YOU. It is times like these where I say, and have even been told in other venues to take a step back and consider how maybe something as silly as a chair might make that person happy, and how it really harms you, if it actually even does.

I know I might get some grump for this but I really don't care, its just my perspective. Consider your perspective, and think am I making more harm than good.



Heres a cute kitten